I tried it both in real time and turn based. Turn based was a chore and real time was retardedly chaotic, but in the end I sticked with real time, if only because it was faster.
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Let's settle this once and for all! Who's the Top Dog?
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Emotional Vampire
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Dnny said:
...you mean the same guy who wrote PST also wrote NWN2?
That's somewhat hard to believe. And wasn't KOTOR2 a Bioware game? Bioware and writing don't know each other, never did and never will.
Chris Avellone was a writer for NWN2, and it had shit writing. Obsidian Entertainment developed KotOR2 and it had better writing than the usual shite.
Avellone is overrated. One look at the fallout bible can tell you that.
Avellone is overrated. One look at the fallout bible can tell you that.
Emotional Vampire
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I always lol at how you people rage about Fallout Bible. So he added some shit you didn't like, go eat a dick. It's(mostly) his universe, he could add fucking cyborg japanese schoolgirls if he wanted.
Lonely Vazdru
Pimp my Title
Grunker said:
First time I heard about it, I realized there were people like me, who could play games 10 hours a day, for days on end... and then there were real nerds.
Voted for Fallout btw.
Azrael the cat
Arcane
Grunker said:
Avellone 'was a writer' in that he wrote one character for NWN2. He has been lead writer on precisely 2 rpgs and only 2 rpgs: Planescape:Torment and KoTOR2. And regardless of whatever criticisms you could make of those two games, their writing was absolutely stellar (I rate PS:T as my favourite game, mainly for the writing and thematic depth - and yes, I recognise the oddness of rating a 'game' for those traits).
He also wrote New Reno, which in itself was fairly decent but many feel it is out of place in FO2 and started the 'themepark-design' problem that Bethesda adopted.
Zhjaeve was certainly a phone-in-job and Avellone should be criticised for doing a low-effort half-assed clone of his own previous character Dakkon. But I don't think it was a substantial enough contribution to NWN2 to judge his writing by.
A better basis would be Alpha Protocol, being the 3rd game that he's been the main writer for, and hence providing a basis for comparison with his work in PS:T and KoTOR2. I'm expecting a beautifully written game with shite gameplay.
The holy trinity is the sweet multiheaded cock of gaming, its heads cannot be separated.
Azrael the cat said:
He also wrote a plot that had a gooey supervillain who controlled super mutants in it, so don't expect me to get totally worked up about him even so
Emotional Vampire
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Azrael the cat said:
Yeah, because having a city controlled by mafia after the entire country collapses is at the same level as having a city with only children in it because adults are ICKY.
Dnny
Educated
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Christ Avellone did MOTB too.Emotional Vampire said:
KOTOR2 isn't a bioware game which shows in how unpolished it was particularly the craptatular ending. Bio does lots (most) things wrong but at least they polish their game until it really is ready to be sold.
Kreia is Ravel 2.0, because Christ Avellone, like David Gaider, can't make a new game without recycling his old stuff. Except that Ravel does not make sense in a setting like Star Wars.
Out of all three games, Fallout is the only one without any glaring flaws. Every aspect of the game was at least decent, while many aspects of the game were outstanding. It set the standard for a computer role-playing game genre with its quest design, with emphasis on nonlinearity, choices and consequences and stat influenced outcomes. An original, fully fleshed, atmospheric setting is a huge plus. It also featured my favorite RPG dungeon (the Glow). It is so athmospheric it makes my skin crawl every time I replay Fallout.
Arcanum is the most ambitious RPG up to date. It tried to expand on Fallout's strengths providing multiple choices and consequences on a larger scale and giving more detail to story and characters. Now that the bugs are squished by Drog's patch we can say that it succeeded in that. An original and interesting setting is another bonus. However, a significant part of Arcanum was combat. Combat system was horrible and the encounter design leaves a lot to be desired. BMC mines are a horrible tedium. Also, game isn't well balanced - playing as a mage is much easier than playing as a technologist.
Planescape:Torment's strengths are atmosphere, setting, story, dialogues and characters. Quest design is also its strength, but Fallout and Arcanum beat PS:T in C&C. Its weaknesses are IE RTWP combat and subpar encounter design. But, Torment's strengths dominate the game and overshadow its weaknesses, making them insignificant and negligible. Even the longest combat sequences are very short compared both to combat sequences other games (like Arcanum) and to the time spent in dialogues and exploring the world.
A great game is more than a simple sum of its strengths and weaknesses. The way everything fits together and stimulates the player is the most important factor. It is subjective, but so is assigning arbitrary weights to each factor that makes a game good and adding them up. The game that I enjoyed the most out of those three (and I enjoyed all of them) was (and is, as I replay it every few years, once the memories start to fade) Planescape: Torment.
In unrelated news, PorkaMorka is a
Arcanum is the most ambitious RPG up to date. It tried to expand on Fallout's strengths providing multiple choices and consequences on a larger scale and giving more detail to story and characters. Now that the bugs are squished by Drog's patch we can say that it succeeded in that. An original and interesting setting is another bonus. However, a significant part of Arcanum was combat. Combat system was horrible and the encounter design leaves a lot to be desired. BMC mines are a horrible tedium. Also, game isn't well balanced - playing as a mage is much easier than playing as a technologist.
Planescape:Torment's strengths are atmosphere, setting, story, dialogues and characters. Quest design is also its strength, but Fallout and Arcanum beat PS:T in C&C. Its weaknesses are IE RTWP combat and subpar encounter design. But, Torment's strengths dominate the game and overshadow its weaknesses, making them insignificant and negligible. Even the longest combat sequences are very short compared both to combat sequences other games (like Arcanum) and to the time spent in dialogues and exploring the world.
A great game is more than a simple sum of its strengths and weaknesses. The way everything fits together and stimulates the player is the most important factor. It is subjective, but so is assigning arbitrary weights to each factor that makes a game good and adding them up. The game that I enjoyed the most out of those three (and I enjoyed all of them) was (and is, as I replay it every few years, once the memories start to fade) Planescape: Torment.
In unrelated news, PorkaMorka is a
Would anyone reconsider where they stand if the poll was re-worded as "if more games were to be made similar to either of these 3, which would it be?" More games with the same amount and quality of polish/quest design/combat/writing/etc. as either of them.
denizsi said:
In terms of scope and quest design, I'd say Arcanum, as it is essentially a more ambitious Fallout and that is a step in a right direction for RPGs to take. The proportion of combat to other gameplay elements depends on the game world (so, it depends on an individual game), but I can say that it was done the best in Fallout. In making a story driven game like PS:T, an inspiration for a story and a setting has to come first, so going in with an idea of "making a new PS:T" might not be a good idea (e.g. KOTOR 2).
Ideally, you can look at Fallout as a minimal implementation of all RPG elements done at least well and build from there.
Carlos' Bitch1
Arcane
Hard decision between the first two, though i have games I prefer over all of them.
It has to be Arcanum, by a whisker.
If Arcanum had decent turn based combat, with full party options, it could very well be the greatest RPG ever known.
As it is today, it is merely an excellent story based RPG, much like Fallout actually, which is why I said "by a whisker".
It has to be Arcanum, by a whisker.
If Arcanum had decent turn based combat, with full party options, it could very well be the greatest RPG ever known.
As it is today, it is merely an excellent story based RPG, much like Fallout actually, which is why I said "by a whisker".
Planescape Torment is one of the very few games I consider art. I loved everything about it, the story, the characters, the setting.
Yet my vote has to go to Arcanum. It's probably THE game I've replayed most (6 times at least, not counting abandoned playthroughs) and the setting I've been immersed in most. Basically, it started my love for steampunk and the Victorian era in general and inspired me to create my own similar fantasy setting.
And while I love PST for all the wonderful writing and story, Arcanum, while worse at these criteria, just has some of the best world and quest design I've seen, with the best C&C ever. I vote Arcanum, and by doing so, I vote for the best RPG ever made, true to the Codexian values of RPG-ness.
Yet my vote has to go to Arcanum. It's probably THE game I've replayed most (6 times at least, not counting abandoned playthroughs) and the setting I've been immersed in most. Basically, it started my love for steampunk and the Victorian era in general and inspired me to create my own similar fantasy setting.
And while I love PST for all the wonderful writing and story, Arcanum, while worse at these criteria, just has some of the best world and quest design I've seen, with the best C&C ever. I vote Arcanum, and by doing so, I vote for the best RPG ever made, true to the Codexian values of RPG-ness.
No, he only contributed to Kaelyn and Gann iirc. 2 very good characters.
The rest : George Ziets. Currently working at Obsidian again I think.
Andyman Messiah
Mr. Ed-ucated
The poll looks like a penis. That's pornographic.
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Voted Fallout, since it's probably the game I've replayed and appreciated the most out of the three.
oh and lol@Dnny going at Avellone again. First of, find me a game that has better writing than Torment. Second, stop imposing your butthurt over Avellones writing on the rest of us. You completely lost the argument in the Kreia newspost the other day by making things up about the plot of KotOR 2, and now you've found some new angle (an amalgamation of Volourns and Vault Dwellers ideas funnily enough) to inject your butthurt through. Just stop, will you?
oh and lol@Dnny going at Avellone again. First of, find me a game that has better writing than Torment. Second, stop imposing your butthurt over Avellones writing on the rest of us. You completely lost the argument in the Kreia newspost the other day by making things up about the plot of KotOR 2, and now you've found some new angle (an amalgamation of Volourns and Vault Dwellers ideas funnily enough) to inject your butthurt through. Just stop, will you?
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