KickStarter Geneforge 1 - Mutagen - remake from Spiderweb Software

[Tyranicon]

However, the dev market is so over-saturated with new devs trying to get a foothold, established devs trying and failing to turn a sizable profit for growth, and AAA studios dipping their toes in every once in a while, before realizing the margins aren't really there.

All true, but consider that Vogel had something others did not with his product. The whole shaping mechanic as well as a blend of fantasy and biopunk for the setting is quite novel, even now after the years, and had he given the game the graphics coating it needs (plus some more QoL stuff), I'm pretty sure he'd become known at the very least. I mean, while the market is saturated with cRPG devs, especially nowadays, the vast majority of them does not really do anything new. A gimmick or two here and there, maybe an experiment that didn't work out, but very, very few manage to actually bring something new and significant to the table and have it work. Vogel managed that. And then promptly failed to capitalize on it. No matter how I look at Vogel, I see him as a man who had an unique opportunity for greatness, and let it slip through his fingers.

I think Vogel's exactly where he wants to be: a self-sustaining solodev studio that churns out game after game in the same mold. Was there a chance that Vogel could've created a mega-hit? Sure, but not terribly likely. We're not talking switching out a few assets, we're talking massive improvements in production value (graphics, audio, soundtrack, etc) and marketing.

Storyfag alert: I personally believe that what attracts players to cRPGs has never been gameplay mechanics. It has always been the narrative and quality of writing, and while Vogel is definitely no slouch in this department (I haven't played Queen's Wish yet), nothing he made really stands out here either.

 

[Tyranicon]

Well, "rain" was a poor choice of words. I meant, "a 100 and something thousand USD salary".

Vogel isn't Illwinter Software or the like, he isn't a indie dev on the side with a "real job". Dunnow if 100k USD are enuff to keep up family, daughters and pet spiders for long.

If I could make even 100k a year making rpgs, I would immediately quit my job. It's not a huge income, but it's definitely comfy. Also, you can basically live wherever you like, and you can set your own schedule. If your partner has a part time job, or perhaps their own full career, then you are definitely doing well financially.

$100k USD for a job you can do remotely is not bad at all, definitely comfy. However, indie income is unstable and could drop suddenly.

 

[Xeon]

Vogel working solo? he says we and our so I kinda thought he has team or something or is that maybe just QA or something.

 

[Tyranicon]

Vogel working solo? he says we and our so I kinda thought he has team or something or is that maybe just QA or something.

He has his wife as an admin and he used to have an artist/social media person I think. Dev has always been mostly just him.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Storyfag alert: I personally believe that what attracts players to cRPGs has never been gameplay mechanics. It has always been the narrative and quality of writing..

Yeah, that's DEFINITELY what made early cRPGs like Wizardry popular.

 

[Tyranicon]

Storyfag alert: I personally believe that what attracts players to cRPGs has never been gameplay mechanics. It has always been the narrative and quality of writing..

Yeah, that's DEFINITELY what made early cRPGs like Wizardry popular.

Keyword: early

 

[Hobo Elf]

Storyfag alert: I personally believe that what attracts players to cRPGs has never been gameplay mechanics. It has always been the narrative and quality of writing..

Yeah, that's DEFINITELY what made early cRPGs like Wizardry popular.

Keyword: early

Moving the goalpost.

 

[Tyranicon]

Storyfag alert: I personally believe that what attracts players to cRPGs has never been gameplay mechanics. It has always been the narrative and quality of writing..

Yeah, that's DEFINITELY what made early cRPGs like Wizardry popular.

Keyword: early

Moving the goalpost.

I mean, I gave you a storyfag alert and it's a personal opinion, I don't really have a structured argument for you here.

 

[Pope Amole II]

There are dozens of games on Steam that are probably better designed, with better art and developed with less resources than Queen's Wish, but good fucking luck in finding them. Even Codex threads, the source I use to pinpoint new crap I want to try, fails to keep up with the dozens of new releases. It's a merciless market.

That's bullshit. As a "press" (lol) I'm getting a lot of steam keys for free so I can actually dumpster dive. Some stuff I showcase on my channel but most gets never reviewed because it's pointless anyways. No one really cares about trash.

Anyways, even though there are dozens of games (not in the pure rpg genre, though, rpgs are way too difficult to make), most of them are absolutely unpalatable trash. Due one reason or another or, most likely, dozens of them.

While that does create a slight visibility problem, indieapocalypse is a myth as even mediocre releases are exceedingly rare and it's just inevitable that they get noticed. One way or another.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Storyfag alert: I personally believe that what attracts players to cRPGs has never been gameplay mechanics. It has always been the narrative and quality of writing..

Yeah, that's DEFINITELY what made early cRPGs like Wizardry popular.

Keyword: early

Moving the goalpost.

I mean, I gave you a storyfag alert and it's a personal opinion, I don't really have a structured argument for you here.

Yes, I can see that. I'm just pointing out that your personal opinion is objectively wrong and is an utterly insane conclusion to come to.

 

[Tyranicon]

There are dozens of games on Steam that are probably better designed, with better art and developed with less resources than Queen's Wish, but good fucking luck in finding them. Even Codex threads, the source I use to pinpoint new crap I want to try, fails to keep up with the dozens of new releases. It's a merciless market.

even mediocre releases are exceedingly rare and it's just inevitable that they get noticed. One way or another.

Lol, you can't be a developer and actually believe this.

 

[Agesilaus]

Storyfag alert: I personally believe that what attracts players to cRPGs has never been gameplay mechanics. It has always been the narrative and quality of writing..

Yeah, that's DEFINITELY what made early cRPGs like Wizardry popular.

Keyword: early

Moving the goalpost.

I mean, I gave you a storyfag alert and it's a personal opinion, I don't really have a structured argument for you here.

You're talking to a guy who likes blobbers, don't expect him to be sensible.

 

[Tom Baker's Arse]

Modern Vogel is a colossal greedy dumbfuck. Geneforge series are his magnum opus, they are legitimately good and the only thing they're lacking in terms of a mass appeal (and, thus, good sales) are the graphics. So, obviously, he goes as greedy as usual and doesn't bother to invest. Just make visuals on par with your average indie and you're running a goldmine here. But no, Vogel gonna Vogel.

Truer words were never fucking spoken. Give the man a cigar.

 

[Dayyālu]

While that does create a slight visibility problem, indieapocalypse is a myth as even mediocre releases are exceedingly rare and it's just inevitable that they get noticed. One way or another.

Methinks we come from slightly different points of view: Indiepocalypse, meaning the age where in the most accessible digital market possible (Steam) the barrier of entry was high enough that even a mediocre entry could sell well, is sorta real. The market itself has changed: indie developers are a dime a dozen and Steam has no problem getting anything in as long as it's not.... child porn, I guess?

You can dumpster dive, and 90% of what you play is trash, but the 10% that's good require bothering to check. And the deluge of crap clogging digital distribution is here to stay, sadly.

Do you really believe that if someone dumped Queen's Wish on Steam without the Vogel name it would sell more than a handful of copies? Legit question, I'm not a dev and I don't know the inside.

 

[coldcrow]

Modern Vogel is a colossal greedy dumbfuck. Geneforge series are his magnum opus, they are legitimately good and the only thing they're lacking in terms of a mass appeal (and, thus, good sales) are the graphics. So, obviously, he goes as greedy as usual and doesn't bother to invest. Just make visuals on par with your average indie and you're running a goldmine here. But no, Vogel gonna Vogel.

Truer words were never fucking spoken. Give the man a cigar.

The second Avernum Trilogy is a pretty good dungeon romp. I have a very soft spot for Avernum 5, always liked wiping out whole cities of snobbish natives.

 

[felipepepe]

indieapocalypse is a myth as even mediocre releases are exceedingly rare and it's just inevitable that they get noticed. One way or another.

Fucking Knights of the Chalice only has 26 reviews on Steam, mostly from Codexers buying it for a second time, and you still say that?

 

[Pope Amole II]

Do you really believe that if someone dumped Queen's Wish on Steam without the Vogel name it would sell more than a handful of copies? Legit question, I'm not a dev and I don't know the inside.

Ofc not, but Queen's Wish is trash. And it's not like Vogel's name sold it beyond Vogelspace. Let's not forget that he has accumulated a fanbase of 2-3 thousand players who will literally buy his shit if its stamped with spiderweb logo. Outside of that factor, I doubt Queen's Wish got more than a handful of sales. Nothing indicates that - it has both mediocre review number and average daily players.

Indiepocalypse, meaning the age where in the most accessible digital market possible (Steam) the barrier of entry was high enough that even a mediocre entry could sell well, is sorta real.

Indieapocalypse is an attention-whoring term that is just wrong. Apocalypse would've meant that the market is dying out, etc. It's growing each year. It's just that yes, competition is much higher (sorta, more like there's a ton of flak) and yes, indie games are no longer a fidget spinner. I.e., they're no longer a fad that is cool because it's a fad. So you have to put some effort in to make your product sellable. That, however, is not an apocalypse - that's business as usual. It's just that your average indie is pretty lazy (I sorta doubt that Vogel has 40 hours working weeks nowadays) and they'd rather do nothing than release games.

Fucking Knights of the Chalice only has 26 reviews on Steam, mostly from Codexers buying it for a second time, and you still say that?

Well, mate, if you look at them with the non-fanboy eyes you'll see that they're shit. Meh graphics (even by the pixel standards), no story (which kinda matters in RPG), neutered dnd 3.5 (which is kinda shit by itself) and combat that is quite subpar to any proper tactical game. No replayability too. Unless you have severe nostalgia for games like this (hello, year 2009), it's hard to see this product as appealing.

And anyone who was interested in them has already played them.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Well, "rain" was a poor choice of words. I meant, "a 100 and something thousand USD salary".

Vogel isn't Illwinter Software or the like, he isn't a indie dev on the side with a "real job". Dunnow if 100k USD are enuff to keep up family, daughters and pet spiders for long.

If I could make even 100k a year making rpgs, I would immediately quit my job. It's not a huge income, but it's definitely comfy. Also, you can basically live wherever you like, and you can set your own schedule. If your partner has a part time job, or perhaps their own full career, then you are definitely doing well financially.

$100k USD for a job you can do remotely is not bad at all, definitely comfy. However, indie income is unstable and could drop suddenly.

Then maybe he should learn to manage his money. Cry me a fucking river on retards who can't manage their assets and liabilities. Pay your fucking mandatory bills, plan the future, save for emergencies, etc. 40k art assets on QW... what a fucking retard. He surely must keep tilesets around to look at and tinker (does it really look that stellar over AV3 remake or Avadon 3?). Now simplifying your inventory tree, gaming mechanics, and progression and admitting laziness and suckage?!?

Get the fuck out of here. Fucking loser talk if you say you don't enjoy it and want to pass crap out to only microwave later with another piece of garnish. Chef Ramsay would chuck that shit into the wall.

 

[EldarEldrad]

All things that need to be remade for Geneforge 1:
- graphics and UI especially
- improve writing, sometimes it was way below mediocre
- buff melee skills to make Guardian more viable late game
- re-design Shaper Crypt (endless spawns just suck)

Everything else should stay the same.

 

[JarlFrank]

indieapocalypse is a myth as even mediocre releases are exceedingly rare and it's just inevitable that they get noticed. One way or another.

Fucking Knights of the Chalice only has 26 reviews on Steam, mostly from Codexers buying it for a second time, and you still say that?

It's overpriced for the look it has going for it though. Only hardcore dungeon crawler fans will grab it.

 

[Lutte]

Storyfag alert: I personally believe that what attracts players to cRPGs has never been gameplay mechanics. It has always been the narrative and quality of writing..

Yeah, that's DEFINITELY what made early cRPGs like Wizardry popular.

Look, I also like dungeon crawlers and don't care for storyfag shit but we don't have the same definition of "popular".
Wizardry was so popular it died as a series during the time PC gaming started booming. It's a game genre that never managed to grow a player base. The final throes of the Wizardry series, 8, came out with little fanfare in the era of PC gaming that had games like Baldur's Gate break records sales.
Relative to the small size of the PC gaming market of the 80s, maybe it had a noticeable presence. It already didn't when games like Ultima 7 were being pumped out.

Looking at the year-1 sales figures for the first Wiz, they were happy when they had sold 24 000 copies. That's only 3k more than the amount of accounts registered on the codex (although yes there's a ton of alts of which I'm one of the culprits). Talking about the "popularity" of things in that sort of context is not a hill to die on. It was a niche market then, and it is still a niche now (the genre, not the market this time).

 

[Darth Canoli]

Fucking Knights of the Chalice only has 26 reviews on Steam, mostly from Codexers buying it for a second time, and you still say that?

Most people who wanted to buy it already did from his website, if the game had been released on steam 10 years ago, it'd have had way more visibility because it wasn't flooded by so much shit back then and because it'd have way more reviews by now.

Still, KotC 2 is probably going to boost KotC sales as well.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Storyfag alert: I personally believe that what attracts players to cRPGs has never been gameplay mechanics. It has always been the narrative and quality of writing..

Yeah, that's DEFINITELY what made early cRPGs like Wizardry popular.

Look, I also like dungeon crawlers and don't care for storyfag shit but we don't have the same definition of "popular".
Wizardry was so popular it died as a series during the time PC gaming started booming. It's a game genre that never managed to grow a player base.

And how are you going to grow a player base for a niche when you barely make any new releases for it? Meanwhile in Japan dungeon crawlers are one of the dominant subgenres of RPGs, largely because they just never abandoned it. Love or hate Japanese games, the one thing that no one can deny is that they understand the futility of chasing big market trends and instead try to corner niches by catering to a specific group of players and grow their business around that. In the west we have no shortage of genius developers and publishers who suffer from some form of megalomania where they think they know what people actually want and they force their boring mass market games on us that are designed based on popular trends. It's pathetic how people are so convinced that just because they like a certain kind of game that surely everyone else must think this way as as well. The lack of empathy and self-awareness is astounding.

The final throes of the Wizardry series, 8, came out with little fanfare in the era of PC gaming that had games like Baldur's Gate break records sales.
Relative to the small size of the PC gaming market of the 80s, maybe it had a noticeable presence. It already didn't when games like Ultima 7 were being pumped out.

Problem with Wiz8 is multi layered. One of the reasons I feel that it suffered is that it came almost a decade later since its previous predecessor, which lead to peoples' interests to wane over the years as there was no new output to keep your interests up. The mid to end of the 90's didn't really see that many significant releases in the crawler subgenre either so it wasn't like new fans were being made either. In the end it was mostly die hard fans who got Wiz8 at the time. For people who weren't really fans of the RPG genre, but were fans of Baldur's Gate, it was going to be too complex of a game with too steep of a learning curve for them to ever get into it. Anyone expecting a complex game to break sales records is out of their mind, and the constant obsession of being the next big hit is what has lead the industry to where it is today. A never ending chase for the next high is what gave us in-game cash shops, day one DLC and season passes, because making more money was just never enough.

Looking at the year-1 sales figures for the first Wiz, they were happy when they had sold 24 000 copies. That's only 3k more than the amount of accounts registered on the codex (although yes there's a ton of alts of which I'm one of the culprits). Talking about the "popularity" of things in that sort of context is not a hill to die on. It was a niche market then, and it is still a niche now (the genre, not the market this time).

So? No, really, what are you trying to say here? This is pure verbal (and mental) nonsense. Why are you comparing copies sold of a game published in the 80s with how many Codex accounts have been registered?

 

[V_K]

Looking at the year-1 sales figures for the first Wiz, they were happy when they had sold 24 000 copies. That's only 3k more than the amount of accounts registered on the codex (although yes there's a ton of alts of which I'm one of the culprits). Talking about the "popularity" of things in that sort of context is not a hill to die on. It was a niche market then, and it is still a niche now (the genre, not the market this time).

First, not the whole 1st year, but just 9 months. Second, games had a much longer shelf life back then. Over the first 3 years, the number of copies sold increased to 200k. The ad for Bane of Cosmic forge mentions that by 1991 the previous games in the series sold over 2 million copies. And it was making it into the "best of" lists well into mid-90s.
Finally, if Wizardry is a bad example because of its age, we can talk about Might&Magic series, which remained hugely popular throughout both early and late 90s, while having stories for which "perfunctory" would be a very kind assessment. And in the most recent history, there's Dark Souls and its sequels and imitators, which don't even give a flying fuck whether the player can understand what's going on.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Wizardry 8.... mine was missing a disc and instead came with 2 disc 2s and no disc 1. God damn bargain bin no returns. Yeah i was sitting on my shelf for years before i opened it up. Don't do that; open those fuckers up immediately upon purchase.