KickStarter Geneforge 1 - Mutagen - remake from Spiderweb Software

[Agesilaus]

Geneforge is one of the best rpg series ever, if not the outright best.

I've been pretty tempted for years now to make a new thread declaring the true top 10 RPGs of all time. The real problem is placing the games in order; it might just be a list of ten in no particular order of excellence. Geneforge series is a top contender, but Nethergate is on there, AoD, Teudogar, Ultima, Darklands, Crescent Hawks Inception, etc. I'm even vaguely tempted to put PoE2 on there, but I hate tropical islands personally. Tough stuff.

 

[JDR13]

Geneforge is one of the best rpg series ever, if not the outright best.

I've been pretty tempted for years now to make a new thread declaring the true top 10 RPGs of all time. The real problem is placing the games in order; it might just be a list of ten in no particular order of excellence. Geneforge series is a top contender, but Nethergate is on there, AoD, Teudogar, Ultima, Darklands, Crescent Hawks Inception, etc. I'm even vaguely tempted to put PoE2 on there, but I hate tropical islands personally. Tough stuff.

If you mean among indies, sure.

 

[Agesilaus]

Geneforge is one of the best rpg series ever, if not the outright best.

I've been pretty tempted for years now to make a new thread declaring the true top 10 RPGs of all time. The real problem is placing the games in order; it might just be a list of ten in no particular order of excellence. Geneforge series is a top contender, but Nethergate is on there, AoD, Teudogar, Ultima, Darklands, Crescent Hawks Inception, etc. I'm even vaguely tempted to put PoE2 on there, but I hate tropical islands personally. Tough stuff.

If you mean among indies, sure.

my turn to play this card

 

[JDR13]

 

[JDR13]

Seriously though, if he can make the entire game look as good as that screen without dumbing it down in any way, I'll definitely give it a shot. I've tried most of his games up to this point and haven't been impressed.

 

[Kruno]

I really loved the story in Geneforge. I am glad he is remaking that instead of Exile: Escape from the Pit once again. I really hope he adds more complexity to character creation though.

 

[Zanzoken]

Thanks, pretty insightful. As much as I personally like the man, his arguement for having shit graphics doesnt hold water because between assets shops and starving artists, art is as about cheap as it has ever been.

Considering that you are a developer, maybe you'll find interesting Vogel's original thoughts:

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2019/08/why-all-of-our-games-look-like-crap.html

http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2019/08/i-am-cheapest-bastard-in-indie-games.html

Again, it feels that his arguments are mostly to defend laziness. Or maybe he suffers from some malady that inhibits good sense in cheap graphics.

It's hard to have any respect for Vogel as a creative after reading those posts. For starters, re-releasing old games as "remasters" without making any actual improvements to the production values is an insult to his fans. Then there is the issue of Queen's Wish, where he had the nerve to go to Kickstarter promising something new yet somehow ended up with a product that was even worse than before.

That leaves $100000 of earnings. For 20 months of work, that's pretty thin, but I'll live with it. I'll make up for it with the next two games in the series, which will take a lot less time to write. (Plus, eventually, remasters. I will be squeezing pennies out of Queen's Wish for literally decades.) So it's fine.

Now it makes sense. I made a joke after Queen's Wish was revealed that he intentionally made it look shitty so he could remaster it in a few years, but I didn't think the mad lad would openly admit to it.

 

[Agesilaus]

20 months to make the children's book that is Queen's Wish?? You only made 100k earnings???



Going to hold my tongue.


EDIT: Unless that 100k is post tax, in which case nice, but still... for someone as established as vogel?

 

[Lyre Mors]

This guy takes games as a business and financial pragmatism to the point that I almost don't even want to play the Geneforge Remaster even if he leaves everything intact like I want, and just upgrades visuals, UI elements, adds music, etc.

Like, I get it man, it's your job. But you just blatantly say you don't enjoy developing games and have no passion for it? You're killing yourself with that attitude, along with your product and my interest.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Yeah, that's a pretty shitty attitude. He wouldn't be the only developer with shit attitudes. I mean the big guys are assholes too (EA and others). Indie or not there are a hell of a lot of choices. There are times in the past i had wished Rich Garriott, Sir Tech, amongst some others would release more modules in a game setting. British kept innovating but i wonder if he could have expanded more using the same engines but different themes.

But damn, this attitude and admittance makes me cringe. I buy his games on the cheap (mega DISCOUNT CHEAP) and QW will have to really drop or maybe i'll wait after its remade again . Dumbing down inventory, mechanics, etc annoys mean. I'd think he'd streamline the games instead of putting out a half-cooked hamburger thats sat out full of bacteria. Blek!

 

[Dayyālu]

Amusingly enough, we're probably the only place that (aggressively) discuss Vogel's approach. See, he doesn't care about what you think, or what he could do, or how much money he could make.

He doesn't like developing his games like he did in past years. He has been rather clear that he considered Bioware's games the golden standard for RPGs and he even tried to ape their mechanics in some ways. His most original output in years was Queen's Wish and Queen's Wish proves that he's completely cut out of proper RPG design, because he redid RPGMaker mechanics out of sheer ignorance (I appreciate the attempt, but it is indeed clumsy).

He doesn't want to put effort in his games. He refuses to improve because that would require effort and going out of his comfort zone, to try new approaches or to do extra work in areas he's not used to. Soundtrack? Why doesn't he KevinMcLeod something? Because that would require minimal effort and his past games didn't have any soundtrack. Don't take risks. Don't change anything.

Vogel, despite his memetic repetition of being an OLD MAN and INDUSTRY VETERAN, has learned pretty much nothing from his experiences. Let's be blunt, his success is only due the fact he managed to put out good RPGs during the Great Shortage of the 00ies, managed to fully exploit Steam's indie boom (I am the only one who remembers how Vogel screamed that Steam was shit up until he realized he made more money on it that he ever did before?) and then managed to build some sort of community that buys his cookie-cutter remasters without critique (and he pretty much told his old fans to go fuck themselves because we're not his audience anymore, he doesn't care LALALALALALALA).

Again, I don't think he can fuck up a Geneforge remake too much, if he doesn't streamline the mechanics or the progression too much.

In before ranting blog post "WHILE I WAS DESIGNING GENEFORGE I REALIZED THE DESIGN IS PRETTY OUTDATED AND I CHOOSE TO REVAMP IT BASING IT ON OUR HIT QUEEN'S WISH. NOW YOU NEED FORTS TO HAVE CREATIONS AND YOU CAN FREELY RESPEC THEM AT YOUR FACTION'S SHAPER POOL. IT IS 2020 AFTER ALL IT NEEDED A REFRESH. 25+ YEARS OLD DEVELOPER VETERAN AND OLD MAN, AFTER ALL."

join all factions then betray everyone and report in to the shaper council at the end.

G2's is my favourite pick too. Mostly because you can weirdly roleplay, and I mean real roleplay: refuse canisters and stick to traditional shaping, beat up all the fucks who genemodded themselves into godhood and go back to the council proving traditional Shaper approach superior. Best ending.

 

[RuySan]

Vogel just needs some love and cuddles from the Codex so he can see the light. I honestly think he used to be one of the best writers in the genre. The first Avernum little desciptions made the world feel so real, I could almost smell the mold of the underground. Also, he knew how to not overdo it, just the right amount of text. The world was also a joy to explore. His obsession with Bioware was what lead to Avadon and the beginning of his decline. Exile 1/Avernum/Avernum remake are still games to be enjoyed and cherished. They're not just among the best of the indies, they should be part of RPG canon.

I tried Geneforge, I really did, but that colour palette gave me eye aids.

 

[thesecret1]

that drayk-boat appears to be unhurt

Are you seriously suggesting that Vogel pays someone for a whole new asset that will likely only be used once?

 

[thesecret1]

He doesn't want to put effort in his games.

That, and there is no more passion in it for him. I'd say that a lot of the things that made geneforge great were the many small things that don't seem to matter too much in the big picture, but actually make the game. The whole canister thing, for example, the C&C, the various item clutter that was mostly useless but worked as a great way to use environment storytelling, the underlying lore... None of those things were real selling points that he could market, they don't seem to be important for gameplay, but together, they actually mean quite a lot. And they're all a result of passion of someone who wanted to make a good game. Vogel lost that passion, and so we get streamlined shit meant for marketing. Queen's Wish was a prime example of it.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

So, how you guys think Geneforge 1 could be improved?

Some stuff I got in mind:

- Music. I'm thinking a proper Geneforge soundtrack would be something ambiental, kinda tech-sounding kinda fantastical.
- Better graphics, of course.
- An UI without that horrible puke green color. Inventory and interface enhancements from his newer games would be great.
- Perhaps a few new quest solutions.
- Add block skill. The nerfed one from the newer Geneforge games I mean, not GF2 block. That should bring Guardian up to spec, whereas in GF1 it is clearly the inferior class compared to the Shaping power of Shapers and the arcane might of Agents.
- Creatures level up more like the newer games, so carrying a creature through the game is worth it.
- Perhaps a more involved Awakened mainquest? From top of my memory, they barely have any quests and soon you end up tasked to use the Geneforge. Meanwhiile, Takers and Obeyers have more involved quest lines.
- Perhaps a more Goettsch-involved quest? AFAIK you meet him not long before the endgame, after his presence has been alluded to a few times. When you reach him, he is obviously a Canister-crazy megalomaniac. Why would someone even team up with that maniac rather than with Trajkov, who is clearly the saner and more reasonable of the two? Also, siding with Takers and ending up allied to Trajkov is a pretty reasonable questline course, while Goettsch feels a bit random.

 

[Tyranicon]

He doesn't want to put effort in his games.

That, and there is no more passion in it for him. I'd say that a lot of the things that made geneforge great were the many small things that don't seem to matter too much in the big picture, but actually make the game. The whole canister thing, for example, the C&C, the various item clutter that was mostly useless but worked as a great way to use environment storytelling, the underlying lore... None of those things were real selling points that he could market, they don't seem to be important for gameplay, but together, they actually mean quite a lot. And they're all a result of passion of someone who wanted to make a good game. Vogel lost that passion, and so we get streamlined shit meant for marketing. Queen's Wish was a prime example of it.

It's been almost two decades since Geneforge right? So Vogel was what, in his 30s when developing the game? Shit, a lot can happen in two decades.

 

[thesecret1]

So Vogel was what, in his 30s when developing the game? Shit, a lot can happen in two decades.

I suppose I can understand it – after spending decades trying to make good games, yet never actually breaking through and making big money (which, for the record, is mostly his own fault), it seems natural he'd start winging it sooner or later.

 

[Tyranicon]

So Vogel was what, in his 30s when developing the game? Shit, a lot can happen in two decades.

I suppose I can understand it – after spending decades trying to make good games, yet never actually breaking through and making big money (which, for the record, is mostly his own fault), it seems natural he'd start winging it sooner or later.

If you make niche games, prepare for niche sales. Sure, there are occasionally niche games that surpass their genre, but these are all exemplary... and usually have their personality inherent in design, gameplay and graphics. The problem is that Vogel's games reflect his own personality: frugal to a fault and resistant to change.

 

[thesecret1]

If you make niche games, prepare for niche sales.

Question is whether he actually wanted to be niche, or if he ended up in one and had been trying to break out from it since. I recall hearing he got pretty devastated when Nethergate ended up not being all that popular.

frugal to a fault and resistant to change

The main reason for his niche status, in my opinion. Had he actually commited to it and provided Geneforge with good graphics and music (and improved the UI), I can see it reaching a much, much larger audience. As it is right now, most people take one look at the game, go "wow, that's fucking ugly" and don't even give it a chance. Of course, Vogel's approach of trying to spend as little as possible means he fails to invest his money in his product, thus destroying its marketing potential.

 

[Agesilaus]

So Vogel was what, in his 30s when developing the game? Shit, a lot can happen in two decades.

I suppose I can understand it – after spending decades trying to make good games, yet never actually breaking through and making big money (which, for the record, is mostly his own fault), it seems natural he'd start winging it sooner or later.

If you make niche games, prepare for niche sales. Sure, there are occasionally niche games that surpass their genre, but these are all exemplary... and usually have their personality inherent in design, gameplay and graphics. The problem is that Vogel's games reflect his own personality: frugal to a fault and resistant to change.

Are CRPGs niche games, though? At least, for solo devs like Vogel? If your game has fairly decent mechanics, an interesting theme, passable graphics, and some effort at marketing, it seems like you should be successful. Surely the market for CRPGs is large enough to make it rain for smaller teams and solo devs.

I also have no idea how Vogel blew 40k on art assets for QW, or 60k for "business expenses".

 

[Tyranicon]

Surely the market for CRPGs is large enough to make it rain for smaller teams and solo devs.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. The nicheness cRPGs is complicated. On one hand, yes, the audience is rather large. However, the dev market is so over-saturated with new devs trying to get a foothold, established devs trying and failing to turn a sizable profit for growth, and AAA studios dipping their toes in every once in a while, before realizing the margins aren't really there. Then take into account an audience that is generally more critical of new releases than other genres, one that is divided by preference for specific gameplay types (blobbers, turn-based grid, etc), narrative types and the availability of C&C.

I can name on one hand the number of small-team RPG devs that had it "rain."

 

[thesecret1]

However, the dev market is so over-saturated with new devs trying to get a foothold, established devs trying and failing to turn a sizable profit for growth, and AAA studios dipping their toes in every once in a while, before realizing the margins aren't really there.

All true, but consider that Vogel had something others did not with his product. The whole shaping mechanic as well as a blend of fantasy and biopunk for the setting is quite novel, even now after the years, and had he given the game the graphics coating it needs (plus some more QoL stuff), I'm pretty sure he'd become known at the very least. I mean, while the market is saturated with cRPG devs, especially nowadays, the vast majority of them does not really do anything new. A gimmick or two here and there, maybe an experiment that didn't work out, but very, very few manage to actually bring something new and significant to the table and have it work. Vogel managed that. And then promptly failed to capitalize on it. No matter how I look at Vogel, I see him as a man who had an unique opportunity for greatness, and let it slip through his fingers.

 

[Agesilaus]

Surely the market for CRPGs is large enough to make it rain for smaller teams and solo devs.

I can name on one hand the number of small-team RPG devs that had it "rain."

Well, "rain" was a poor choice of words. I meant, "a 100 and something thousand USD salary".

 

[Dayyālu]

You know, it's probably one of the few areas where I do agree with Vogel: the indiepocalypse has come and nothing will be the same. I mean, if Vogel dumped Geneforge and Avernum nowadays on Steam as "new games" without being already estabilished he would sell jack shit: indies on Steam and previously on Kickstarter are such an oversaturated market that nothing is going to save you, nor mechanics nor inventiveness, just sheer luck.

Like, we get the Steam sale today. Are you even willing to sit through THOUSANDS of games in the hope you'll get something you like? People keep buying Vogel games, despite the loss of quality, because he's a known name. And he's a known name because he kept throwing out games and building a community in the decades before Steam. The right man at the right place.

There are dozens of games on Steam that are probably better designed, with better art and developed with less resources than Queen's Wish, but good fucking luck in finding them. Even Codex threads, the source I use to pinpoint new crap I want to try, fails to keep up with the dozens of new releases. It's a merciless market.

And seriously, let's take the Kickstarter craze, what games that we got from that one were even "good"?

Well, "rain" was a poor choice of words. I meant, "a 100 and something thousand USD salary".

Vogel isn't Illwinter Software or the like, he isn't a indie dev on the side with a "real job". Dunnow if 100k USD are enuff to keep up family, daughters and pet spiders for long.

 

[Agesilaus]

Well, "rain" was a poor choice of words. I meant, "a 100 and something thousand USD salary".

Vogel isn't Illwinter Software or the like, he isn't a indie dev on the side with a "real job". Dunnow if 100k USD are enuff to keep up family, daughters and pet spiders for long.

If I could make even 100k a year making rpgs, I would immediately quit my job. It's not a huge income, but it's definitely comfy. Also, you can basically live wherever you like, and you can set your own schedule. If your partner has a part time job, or perhaps their own full career, then you are definitely doing well financially.