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Incline Elminage Gothic (former Japan only dungeon crawler)

aweigh

Arcane
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
18,152
Location
Florida
Cave of the Ancients is probably one of my favorite dungeons ever. It contains some callback references to Wizardry Empire 1 and 2, and some random references I didn't understand (like the white rabbit and the broken mirrors). It also has some humorous quips, like how an NPC inside the dungeon says the "white lines" (wireframe graphics) are how the Gods see the World.

Also, the 8-bit music track for CotA was so fucking good and atmospheric; PROBABLY my all-around favorite music track in the game! I love the way it changed loops and became more scrambled the further you get into the dungeon.

(Though they repeat the same trick with Ibag's Tower, with the music scrambling and becoming more chaotic as you ascent each floor until at the end it's not even music anymore).

Matador

Skillving is known as the noob-crusher of Ibag's Tower! The mound of foolish adventurer corpses left at Skillving's wake is a big one... but there is a secret to defeating him! See if you can spot it:

[Was going to post a picture of Skillving's statistics here and ask 'see if you can spot it!' but I couldn't find an image of it quickly enough]

...it's his weakness to confusion. He only has 30% resistance to it.
 

aweigh

Arcane
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
18,152
Location
Florida
Did you get the secret weapon Aura Punch in the last floor of the Cave of the Ancients, Matador ?

It's a great L-range weapon that anyone can use with a base damage of 10-10, allows AC (can be used by Ninja/Brawler without penalty), and does 10 hits. It also grants an armor bonus of -1.

(Even if the damage isn't impressive, the 10 hits attack ratio means it's good for enchanting with something that inflicts a status; the -1 armor bonus it grants is also noteworthy as no other weapons for alchemists, that I remember, grant any bonus at all, and they mostly can't equip shields except for the Cursed Shield and some endgame stuff, like the Autoguard I believe).

Generally speaking I always just give it to my Alchemist, even though anyone can use it. Mages and bishops are too weak to make use of it, and Clerics have access to better things, and the other classes don't need it; therefore it goes to my alchy.

EDIT: It's inside a hidden room in CotA, also it costs 1 million GP. After you buy it, the same NPC will sell you the ability to change portraits to anything that has artwork (like using enemy portraits) as well.

EDIT 2: You can buy more than 1 Aura Punch as well.
 
Last edited:

Cyanide

Novice
Joined
May 20, 2019
Messages
36
Cave of the Ancients is probably one of my favorite dungeons ever. It contains some callback references to Wizardry Empire 1 and 2, and some random references I didn't understand (like the white rabbit and the broken mirrors). It also has some humorous quips, like how an NPC inside the dungeon says the "white lines" (wireframe graphics) are how the Gods see the World.

Also, the 8-bit music track for CotA was so fucking good and atmospheric; PROBABLY my all-around favorite music track in the game! I love the way it changed loops and became more scrambled the further you get into the dungeon.

(Though they repeat the same trick with Ibag's Tower, with the music scrambling and becoming more chaotic as you ascent each floor until at the end it's not even music anymore).

Matador

Skillving is known as the noob-crusher of Ibag's Tower! The mound of foolish adventurer corpses left at Skillving's wake is a big one... but there is a secret to defeating him! See if you can spot it:

[Was going to post a picture of Skillving's statistics here and ask 'see if you can spot it!' but I couldn't find an image of it quickly enough]

...it's his weakness to confusion. He only has 30% resistance to it.
Skilly also has a -100% resistance to poison, but yeah....that faggot knight blonde is BRUTAL
 

aweigh

Arcane
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
18,152
Location
Florida
Skilly also has a -100% resistance to poison, but yeah....that faggot knight blonde is BRUTAL

...for a good reason; he has the Ex Skill that allows him to become three times as strong when he becomes poisoned. Woe unto you if you accidentally poison him by attacking with a Werebeast, lol.
 

Cyanide

Novice
Joined
May 20, 2019
Messages
36
Why does "demon lady" have the same sprite as the noble lady in the tavern?
Noble ladies have a thing for demons?

dgy3_elminage_2017-01-30_19-31-39-15.jpg
Sexual innuendo :v
 

d1r

Single handedly funding SMTVI
Patron
Joined
Nov 6, 2011
Messages
4,331
Location
Germany
If you could replace the music of Elminage with the soundtracks of another game, which game would you chose?

I can tolerate a lot of stuff in video games, but generic, garbage music in a grinder is an absolute no go (gotta use AutoHotKey for switching the music in this game).
 

aweigh

Arcane
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
18,152
Location
Florida
Dunno, cos the music in Elminage: Gothic is great. Might replace it with the MIDI soundtracks of the SNES remakes of Wiz 1-3 + 5, perhaps.
 

Dorateen

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2012
Messages
4,423
Location
The Crystal Mist Mountains
EDIT: It's inside a hidden room in CotA, also it costs 1 million GP. After you buy it, the same NPC will sell you the ability to change portraits to anything that has artwork (like using enemy portraits) as well.

EDIT 2: You can buy more than 1 Aura Punch as well.

There's also a special place in Ibag Tower where you can use Aura Punch.
 

aweigh

Arcane
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
18,152
Location
Florida
Yup, yup. It's the only place in the game where you can mine +2 Ores.

You can do a lil trick (glitch?) where if you equip the Aura Punch on your Ninja, and then have him use his EX Skill to Replicate himself, and then have the Replica do the mining then the Replica's Aura Punch won't break!

Changing to a Ninja via Hermit Knife doesn't let you get Replicate skill, and Wyndham (the Mysterious Child you can recruit in the 1st dungeon) doesn't come with Replicate either, even though he is a Ninja. This means the only way is to char-gen a fresh Ninja or to class-change into one.
 

Cyanide

Novice
Joined
May 20, 2019
Messages
36
Hey aweigh, why did you delete your youtube account? I really loved your E. Gothic videos, specially those from the Ibag Tower :D

Im Exbelion, by the way, I forgot my old account's password lol
 

Matador

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 14, 2016
Messages
1,692
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Cave of the Ancients is probably one of my favorite dungeons ever. It contains some callback references to Wizardry Empire 1 and 2, and some random references I didn't understand (like the white rabbit and the broken mirrors). It also has some humorous quips, like how an NPC inside the dungeon says the "white lines" (wireframe graphics) are how the Gods see the World.

Also, the 8-bit music track for CotA was so fucking good and atmospheric; PROBABLY my all-around favorite music track in the game! I love the way it changed loops and became more scrambled the further you get into the dungeon.

(Though they repeat the same trick with Ibag's Tower, with the music scrambling and becoming more chaotic as you ascent each floor until at the end it's not even music anymore).

Matador

Skillving is known as the noob-crusher of Ibag's Tower! The mound of foolish adventurer corpses left at Skillving's wake is a big one... but there is a secret to defeating him! See if you can spot it:

[Was going to post a picture of Skillving's statistics here and ask 'see if you can spot it!' but I couldn't find an image of it quickly enough]

...it's his weakness to confusion. He only has 30% resistance to it.

Yes, I saw the confusion "weakness". In the last dungeons I use to make screenshots of the more dangerous monsters encyclopedia entries to consult them in battles.

I also bought the aura punch, lots of money to spare thanks to the bishop. Didn't know that you can use it to mine in Ibag Tower 3rd floor.

The problem is the bastard usually gets to act before me, and the pain begins. I imagine with more levels I get better initiative in combat.

Do you know what "speed" does with spells like Lascorek? Does is only affect turn order?

Anyway I'm gonna play another games for a month or 2 to avoid burning out of Elminage and Wizardry games. I'm at 3rd floor, and when I come back I'm gonna beat this. This game has become top 10 game ever for me, it's gonna be an honor to join the club of master players getting to the end.
 

aweigh

Arcane
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
18,152
Location
Florida
Hey aweigh, why did you delete your youtube account? I really loved your E. Gothic videos, specially those from the Ibag Tower :D

Im Exbelion, by the way, I forgot my old account's password lol

YouTube deleted my channel cos I said too many no-no words in the comments of other videos.
 

Cyanide

Novice
Joined
May 20, 2019
Messages
36
Hey aweigh, why did you delete your youtube account? I really loved your E. Gothic videos, specially those from the Ibag Tower :D

Im Exbelion, by the way, I forgot my old account's password lol

YouTube deleted my channel cos I said too many no-no words in the comments of other videos.
Wow....that sucks honestly....
There is no freedom of speech I guess :(
 

zwanzig_zwoelf

Graverobber Foundation
Developer
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
3,178
Location
デゼニランド
After some stumbling, confusion and getting used to the first floor of the first dungeon, I optimized my party's combat behavior and it's been a smooth ride ever since.

I have a Brawler-Hunter-Fighter-Thief-Mage-Bishop party. Prepping to finish the first dungeon and continue the adventure.

CBA57893293E58FE23B214ABF8FE1C9CECBEB8E2
 

Matador

Arcane
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Codex+ Now Streaming!
Good party, but I think you need a cleric.

Also you have no alchemy spells. Very powerful kit you are missing.
 

zwanzig_zwoelf

Graverobber Foundation
Developer
Joined
Nov 21, 2015
Messages
3,178
Location
デゼニランド
Cleric and alchemy. Sounds tempting, might consider replacing a guy or two to take advantage of that (or replay the game with a new one if I complete/fuck this one up).
 

aweigh

Arcane
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
18,152
Location
Florida
After some stumbling, confusion and getting used to the first floor of the first dungeon, I optimized my party's combat behavior and it's been a smooth ride ever since.

I have a Brawler-Hunter-Fighter-Thief-Mage-Bishop party. Prepping to finish the first dungeon and continue the adventure.

CBA57893293E58FE23B214ABF8FE1C9CECBEB8E2

Soon enough you're going to want an alchemist, as crafting is pretty much essential, and so fun and integral to fleshing out the enjoyment of the game that I think one of the few weaknesses of Elminage is tying crafting to a char-class at all, as it pretty much necessitates utilizing the class.

(yes, you saw this correctly, you just saw me actually saying Elminage isn't perfect).

Anyway, so yeah, crafting and enchantment: you can either keep one in town for crafting or take one with you, and putting aside the fact that it's incredibly tedious having to switch in the Alchemist character into your party every time you're going to upgrade, enchant or craft, it's also matter-of-fact that the alchemist spell list is basically the most useful one out of all the spell schools. The alchemist spell school includes spells for repairing broken weapons and armor and other items (enemies can break your equipment, and also some other misc. equipment can break due to reasons, such as Bard instruments); and it also includes absolutely essential spells that speed up your turn order, increase your damage output by increasing the hits-per-swing of your weapon attacks, and most importantly: the alchemist spell list contains the all-important spells that help reduce incoming magic spells, or increase your party's magical effectiveness.

EDIT: As well as Charming and Confusion, and most MOST importantly: PARALYSIS. Paralysis is SUPER DUPER USEFUL. It's a life-saver, useful from the beginning of the game up until the very fucking end.

Since you're using a Hunter, you should know Hunters have a special connection with the alchemy spell school, and when you class change an Alchemist INTO a Hunter, the Hunter will retain all 9/9/9/9/9/etc spell charges (assuming the Alchemist learned them, obviously). This is noteworthy because normally when you class change out of a spell-casting class and into another class you will only retain a maximum of 3 spell charges per spell-level, i.e. 3/3/3/3/etc; however due to the Hunter's affinity with alchemy they will retain the maximum allotment.

This still means you'll have to keep an Alchemist parked in the Bar, and I still think that's incredibly tedious, so basically the TLDR of this is: Bro, you need an Alchemist.

I personally recommend just accepting that you need one in-party (you'll have to have one in your party anyways at some point in order to have SOMEONE learn Alchemy spells before classing them into something else, like back into a Hunter); it cuts back on the tedium of switching him in/out every time you need to craft, enchant or synthesize.

Like I said: Elminage's dependance on tying crafting, enchantment and synthesis to the actual Alchemy class, instead of making it a generic service available in town, is the only real glaring weakness or flaw that in the game's mostly impeccable balancing act. You could argue that since Bishops are the only ones who can Identify that they also fall under this same fate, but unlike crafting/Alchemy, you can get items identified by store owners or barkeeps as a generic service, so you don't need to have a Bishop; it's merely convenient, unlike Alchemist spells/crafting which are essential.

TLDR: make an Alchemist, and when he learns all his spellz turn him back into your Hunter. At least then you'll have access to the Alchemy spell list. You'll still need to make another Alchemist in order to keep him parked in the tavern to upgrade your gear and synthesize items, which is why I recommend just having one in the party at all times as an active member. It's just faster.

TLDR Update: Also the game incentivizes leveling up your Alchemist, i.e. having him be an Active Party member and leveling up, because the higher their level the better they can enchant your gear. Alchemists learn to squeeze more crafting-points out of the same Ores the more powerful they become. You can finish the game with a level 1 Alchemist's limited Ore-squeezing skills, but it will be waaaaaay harder than if you have a high-level Alchemist who, due to being better at squeezing more crafting-points out of your Ores, will be able to access the high-tier enchantments!

Examples of "high tier enchantments" that necessitate high-level Alchemist chars to reasonably access are:

- Enchanting a Main-hand weapon into being equippable into the Sub-hand.
- Kitting out a weapon with up to 3 different Double-Damage Race Targets. (Or more, I think you can squeeze in 4 races with +2 Ores).
- Making a weapon have infinite range.
- Removing class/race restrictions on gear. (!!!).

etc. You need very very high-point Ores to access those kinds of enchantments, and the only sane way is by having a high level Alchy.
 
Last edited:

Matador

Arcane
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I think just one simple mod giving another class the ability to craft items (without alchemist mastery bonuses) and making the hunter learn alchemy spells slowly on his own, would make the game almost perfect.

Alchemist is the only class that can learn alchemy spells, contrasting to bards, samurai and shamans learning mage spells. And valkyries and Lords cleric spells.

It just make sense give that to the hunters giving the existing sinergy of retaining all alchemy spell points on clas changing to them.
 

aweigh

Arcane
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
18,152
Location
Florida
I tried doing just that but it wouldn't work. I have some guesses as to why but it doesn't really matter, probably something to do with the way the crafting menu works only in-town.

:/

I did get giving Identify to Thieves and Bards to work, though!
 

Matador

Arcane
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Those were good ideas, for sure. Make sense having 2 or 3 classes have that feature in a game with so many classes.
 

Cyanide

Novice
Joined
May 20, 2019
Messages
36
Diomente and Mahama are the main reason to get an alchemist and a mage.
Alchemists also have a breath spell, jusk like dragons, very useful on anti-magic zones, etc

Alchemists also repair broken items, safely remove traps from chests, inflict status ailments, etc

Alchemists are WONDERFUL :D

About diomente, most people learn the spell by the time they reach Degus Gila
 
Last edited:

Haplo

Prophet
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Joined
Sep 14, 2016
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6,563
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Alchemist -> Hunter is a great progression.
I had my Alchemist multiclass to a Summoner... and also a multi-discipline mage/alchemist/cleric/bishop.
In general the Bishop is sloooow. I'd recommend you to make him a mage or cleric first and only then progress in the bishop class. Actually IMO its best to make a mage 13/cleric 13/ bishop rest. It's still MUCH faster (mage 13/cleric 13 will learn all spells in like HALF the time it'd take the bishop).
For now bear with tavern identification.... and use Bishop when you actually start finding valuable stuff. Or well, bench one for free ID of simple stuff (though time-consuming).

Regarding Alchemy Synthesis, after class switching my alchemists, I benched one in tavern. Late game and post game I used excess gold to level him up at the shrine. Getting him to Mastery level was VERY convenient, as I didn't need new gems whenever I got a new equipment upgrade any more. But otherwise his skill progression is relatively slow. More suited towards late post game, when you break levels 100, 200 and so on.

IMO the most important aspect is enchanting stuff with resistances - to elements and statuses, as well as status attack boosts. I got by using 4 monster adventurers, 3 of which had generally very high base Status Resists (the 4th was more fragile, but as a Ninja was often hidden and had lovely Charm and Behead chance). Normal characters could miss the high level enchants more. Then again, like I already wrote, the really strong stuff starts in late post-game, so I'm not sure its worth focusing on in the early levels. IMO a tavern alchemist is enough then.
 

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