Incline Elminage Gothic (former Japan only dungeon crawler)

[turkishronin]

+ not annoying sound effects

 

[Cyanide]

I'm not struggling with offense, no reason to drop 20k on that thing. Actually, I ended up giving my front line pairs of whips so they don't get fucked by mages or archers hiding behind one 'hiding' cunt that never gets revealed. Also realized one of my guys kept getting murderized because apparently 'cursed' counts as a status effect for pursuit, which never misses and rolls like double damage or something. RIP awesome cursed club.

Tree dungeon is actually much easier than the other one, but after exploring the first level and realizing the game expects me to turn to every fucking wall and manually search it, I think I'm done with this game. I don't even want to know what other autistic bullshit is in store.

For the record, after 4 hours and 3 different dungeons, the list of decent items I've found consists of:
Fairy Whip (it can hit ghosts at least)
Fairy Gloves (it has better stats than a normal glove... good thing my bishop happened to be a fairy so it wasn't completely worthless)
A Rusty Longsword (has 2 attacks instead of one... never used it because brawlers hit 4 times harder than everyone else.)
A Beastbone Sword? It's got really awful stats but double damage vs animals... which means it's not worth using.

Everything else has been shit I could have bought in the store or just outright trash like those Konbou things. I guess there were those shitty Quenstene things for hitting ghosts too, but honestly their stats are so bad they don't seem worth carrying. Not a single piece of even chainmail armour.

Hmm, I wonder if they were actually crazy enough to make it linked to the luck stat? If the luck of the person opening the chest did have a huge impact on loot, I could see the point in having a dedicated thief.

Elminage Gothic is hard, but rewarding, and although it's hard as nails there are harder games out there: Dark Souls, Bloodborne, Sekiro, Wizardry IV, etc :D

 

[Damned Registrations]

I'm just not feeling the rewarding part. 2 equipment upgrades in 4 hours is beyond painfully slow. Not even major upgrades, just minor ones. And tediously checking every wall in a dungeon for hidden doors isn't the kind of difficulty I'm into. I've also yet to have a satisfying fight. Everything is over in 3 or 4 rounds. I don't think I've met a single enemy that survives more than 2 decent hits. The dungeons are huge but incredibly empty. I know there's guaranteed enemy spawns in spots like those donut rooms in the first dungeon, but there's no reward for fighting those so it's a pointless feature. They're not even especially difficult fights. Fuck, I've spent more time opening chests than actually putting in commands in battle. At least the chests reliably poison me or fuck my mages over.

I don't need the gear to progress, I need the gear to feel like the progress meant anything. I've done nothing interesting so far. No decisions to make. Just walk through dungeon, follow right hand wall till I find stairs or quest objective. Hit E for pretty much every battle. Excitedly identify new drops only to be terribly disappointed. Never change equipment. Nothing to choose on level up.

There should be boss fights with good loot, treasures in hard to reach areas, fights that drag on and give me a reason to use the 30 buffs I have access to, abilities or stats to assign as I level up, equipment to customize.

I get that fiddling with the spirit pact characters and forged equipment endgame would be interesting, but I don't think it's worth going through 20 hours of tedium to get there. And I could cheat my ass off by just going exactly where I need to go by following maps online, but at that point it's not a crawl any more.

 

[Haplo]

Hmm, I wonder if they were actually crazy enough to make it linked to the luck stat? If the luck of the person opening the chest did have a huge impact on loot, I could see the point in having a dedicated thief.

I explained the loot mechanics in my previous post. It appears you did not read it properly.
As far as I'm aware, Luck is not connected to the items you find.

On the other hand, Luck DOES help with finding secret passages (and detecting/disarming traps). Characters such as ninjas and particularly Thiefs have much higher chances. Also you increase the odds with a low level buff spell.
Early on it is a pain, but later, if you have a thief and/or ninja with good luck, you detect most of those passages automatically.

And you don't need to wait till End Game to start playing with Spirit Pact.
The Dragonfly ninjas are from a mid-game dungeon for example and easily recruitable. Actually you can even get a RedCap from the Tree dungeon you're now in to fill that spot before.
Whirlwind Effreet brawlers are also from mid-game, however you need to be fairly high level to have decent chances to recruit. There are some Cyclops brawlers (with alchemy spells!) from the same dungeon as Dragonfly to fill the spot before.
Nue smurais (and Don Mag mages, if you want those) are admittedly pretty endgame.

But actually you can start even earlier, just... won't necessarily have the best then. Golem fighters come from one of the first dungeons and have some strong resistances (like behead immunity AFAIR). Then the already mentioned RedCap ninjas with behead chance.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Is this better than Labyrinth of Refrain: Coven of Dusk?

 

[Matador]

Damned Registrations yo complain about lack of upgrades, and don't bother buying and obvious and great one from the store (flamberge). What do you need the money for other than that and some antidotes and potions?

If those are the best weapons you have gotten at that point of the game, you have been extremely unlucky.

It's possible that you don't like this game, it's a niche game and it has its flaws. But some things you are saying aren't fair.

 

[CryptRat]

Not even major upgrades, just minor ones. And tediously checking every wall in a dungeon for hidden doors isn't the kind of difficulty I'm into.

I'm not an expert of the game but I had a strong impression that hidden doors only lead to optional content and you can still advance through the game without finding any. More generally between those and optional dungeons I liked how a big part of the content is optional and skipping it doesn't make the game too hard while not skipping it doesn't make it too easy (although that you can save everywhere is a reason and not really a good one). The game is well balanced due to the Wizardry-like (D&D-like) system with multiple hits per round and all, I think that many enemies can kill you but are easy to kill in the same time is also part of it (which does not mean bosses need to be like this too). I know it's not rocket science but in the world of JRPGs in particular it's not a common enough thing.

Many of your complaints sound legit to me, the game is slow as fuck and this reason alone is enough not to like the game, I would have preferred saving only allowed in town with balance changes if necessary, there are not enough boss and miniboss battles (real ones to advance, not optional super strong ones) and unlike in Etrian Odyssey for example I never really got the appeal of the super strong bosses. I have got more mixed feelings about the dungeons, they are big and empty but compared with say, Etrian Odyssey again, they seem like some thought was put into them. Also I thought equipment upgrades were satisfying, weapons which hit 3 times more in a round and such, but that exact kind of weapon clearly not appear in the beginning so maybe I just don't remember well and the game is very slow anyway.

No problem with not liking the game, I enjoyed it a lot but it's far from flawless. Note that you may like some of the recently translated japanese Wizardry better, I would not know since I have not played them much yet but the first dungeon of Wizardry IV Gaiden on SNES is nothing like the first dungeon of Elminage : Gothic (but the game does not have the same cool set of classes either). Also in case you've not played it Swords & Sorcery : Underworld plays much faster overall while fights are indiviually more fun, there's a demo so you can try the game without wasting your money.

 

[turkishronin]

Is this better than Labyrinth of Refrain: Coven of Dusk?

I believe they are in different genres. Labyrinth of Refrain is a storyfag game similar to Stranger of Swordcity or Operation Abyss

 

[Haplo]

Not even major upgrades, just minor ones. And tediously checking every wall in a dungeon for hidden doors isn't the kind of difficulty I'm into.

I'm not an expert of the game but I had a strong impression that hidden doors only lead to optional content and you can still advance through the game without finding any. More generally between those and optional dungeons I liked how a big part of the content is optional and skipping it doesn't make the game too hard while not skipping it doesn't make it too easy (although that you can save everywhere is a reason and not really a good one).

That is actually wrong. You need to find quite a lot of secrets to progress (and sometimes also sort-of "decipher" a maze... sometimes several floors of it together). Some are optional or shortcuts, of course.

One word of advice for some tedium reduction: Craft a... Sheep Brush, was it? The item that displays fixed encounter locations on the map. You don't necessarily want to skip them a lot, as only fixed enemy locations offer treasure rewards, but sometimes you want to... and sometimes you're low on resources and can't afford them.

Also one other piece of advise: somewhere on the deepest level of each dungeon there is a stone tablet that you probably want to find (placed randomly), as you'll need it for the post game (game will inform you when you've stumbled upon it). Be careful though, the same floors usually have optional Floor Bosses roaming them.

 

[turkishronin]

Man the Charm spell really needs to be nerfed. Basically it kills every floor monster in one round.

 

[Haplo]

Please no.

How about instead of nerfing strong effects, why not just make various enemies resistant to those effects to various degrees? And also make them reroll the save every round vs hard-CC?

Cause that's what Gothic does...

 

[Matador]

Man the Charm spell really needs to be nerfed. Basically it kills every floor monster in one round.

If you see the Monster encyclopedia there are dangerous monsters that are resistant to charm and can charm you. Like some demon/ vampire femme fatales.

 

[turkishronin]

I don't need the gear to progress, I need the gear to feel like the progress meant anything.

tbh the scarcity of loot in Wizardry games makes discovering the good items you find later on feel much more rewarding. I spent majority of my game with just an average enhanced longsword until I found a Lighting Sword that had a special Thunder attack. It's different from other RPGs where there's a lot of items that each look different but are practically all similar.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Damned Registrations yo complain about lack of upgrades, and don't bother buying and obvious and great one from the store (flamberge). What do you need the money for other than that and some antidotes and potions?

If those are the best weapons you have gotten at that point of the game, you have been extremely unlucky.

It's possible that you don't like this game, it's a niche game and it has its flaws. But some things you are saying aren't fair.

What weapons could I have gotten instead? And the Flamberge isn't even an upgrade, I'd have to swap out one of my brawlers from the front line and do less damage overall. Did you make a party of midgets or something? I don't need a strong short ranged attacker. I was saving the money to train a new recruit if I found something decent enough to warrant using another class, like a decent weapon with multiple attacks or really nice armour or something. A beatstick like the flamberge isn't useful to me since nothing survives more than a couple hits anyways, and having medium weapons on the front line is far, far more useful. Unless I can give it to my bishop and have her use it every round forever. But I suspect it'd break. Besides, I have 4 fuckers that breathe fire already. 5 if you count the alchemist and 6 if you count the bishop's fire spell. AoE fire damage is not in short supply.

I don't see how my complaints are unfair. Even assuming I did buy the sword and it was useful, that's one upgrade I got by grinding for it. Zzzz. I've opened at least a hundred chests by now. It's retarded that 95% of them are filled with rocks or daggers or cloth 'armour' that does literally nothing. Just to make the ID class mandatory along with, apparently, the thief class and the summoner class and the brawler class. Such party variety!

I wouldn't even be mad about the secret door thing if it were in a reasonable spot you could work out on your own because it's suspicious. But no, it's just a totally random ass wall out of about 60 possible walls that all look identical ( another gripe, the dungeons are so utterly featureless I'd think this was some sort of one man indie project if not for all the monster art.) What does the next dungeon have, a door that I need a nodachi to open with no indication that is the case? Maybe it requires a 334 year old servant of male gender?

I get the impression this is a game for people who like reading a wiki to make sure they don't miss anything. There seem to be a ton of obscure sidequests, you guys seem very excited about recruiting very specific monsters out of dozens and there's no way in hell you tried all of them yourselves.

I don't need the gear to progress, I need the gear to feel like the progress meant anything.

tbh the scarcity of loot in Wizardry games make discovering the good items you find later on feel much more rewarding. I spent majority of my game with just an average enhanced longsword until I found a Lighting Sword that had a special Thunder attack. It's different from other RPGs where there's a lot of items that each look different but are practically all similar.

The irony is strong with this one. A weapon with a thunder damage is practically similar. Other rpgs have things like weapons which drain life, or deal damage based on the number of times you've ever fled from combat, or automatically attempt to steal when attacking, or reduce enemy defense with each hit, or hit an entire row of enemies at once, or drain your spell power to do extra damage. This game is the one where everything is just a variation on damage and elementals. Even the ones with extra attacks aren't real extra attacks like the brawlers get. And again, I could live with that, except the rate of progress here is mind numblingly slow. 4 hours to get a whip that can hit ghosts and does 1 more point of damage. Le fuck? By this point I'd have expected to have gotten at least a dozen items that do 3 or so extra damage or have multiple special attributes, considering class restrictions mean you can't use most of what you find anyways.

 

[turkishronin]

And the Flamberge isn't even an upgrade

I don't know what you mean. It does quite a lot of fire damage to an enemy row iirc the equivalent of a Mabalad spell

 

[turkishronin]

nothing survives more than a couple hits anyways

Basically even in later dungeons that more or less remains the same. Either you quickly kill the monster or they wipe your party

 

[Damned Registrations]

There is no such spell. Assuming you mean Balados, the level 2 spell that does that, my whole party can already do that.

 

[turkishronin]

Mabalad is Balados but much stronger

 

[Damned Registrations]

Ah, there's a Rabalad spell I see now. So I can give it to a speed demon and just one shot a row of enemies in every combat for the foreseeable future? I can see why everyone is obssesed with it then. I can imagine that being a huge upgrade if your party doesn't do that with auto combat anyways. Would be nice for the occasional fight against like 8 lizardmen that can actually survive a couple rounds.

I think I'm done though. The crawling itself is just too dull. The only thing I have to look forward to while exploring a dungeon is some douchebag telling me about how the air smells mouldy. I'm gonna find a game that puts treasure behind it's secret passages, instead of dead ends or deathtrap fights with no reward.

 

[Dorarnae]

nothing is mandatory, you can play with whatever you want. you could run without a thief if you want, summoner isn't required, neither are brawler or alchemist.... Of course chest don't drop anything exciting at first, you're still in the first few dungeon. the only thing that suck is there's no graphic for each item like previous elminage.
the beginning is easy but as you progress the game will test your skill, and if your party is good or suck.

 

[Mastermind]

What weapons could I have gotten instead? And the Flamberge isn't even an upgrade, I'd have to swap out one of my brawlers from the front line and do less damage overall. Did you make a party of midgets or something? I don't need a strong short ranged attacker. I was saving the money to train a new recruit if I found something decent enough to warrant using another class, like a decent weapon with multiple attacks or really nice armour or something. A beatstick like the flamberge isn't useful to me since nothing survives more than a couple hits anyways, and having medium weapons on the front line is far, far more useful. Unless I can give it to my bishop and have her use it every round forever. But I suspect it'd break. Besides, I have 4 fuckers that breathe fire already. 5 if you count the alchemist and 6 if you count the bishop's fire spell. AoE fire damage is not in short supply.

I don't see how my complaints are unfair. Even assuming I did buy the sword and it was useful, that's one upgrade I got by grinding for it. Zzzz. I've opened at least a hundred chests by now. It's retarded that 95% of them are filled with rocks or daggers or cloth 'armour' that does literally nothing. Just to make the ID class mandatory along with, apparently, the thief class and the summoner class and the brawler class. Such party variety!

Only thieves are (arguably) mandatory. Summoners and brawlers are powerful (especially together) but you don't actually need either one.

 

[Matador]

Thieves aren't mandatory in Gothic, much better getting a ninja ASAP. The only classes close to mandatory are early mage (Diomente), early cleric ( getting healing spells faster) and alchemist (crafting and powerful buff/debuff spells).

 

[Haplo]

Yeah, I actually saw little reason to go with a thief in Gothic - as opposed to Original,.
There are almost no unique items exclusive to stealing. Stolen, cursed equipment is generally inferior to regular equipment.
There are a few items that can be stolen, but nothing really special, unique or what you couldn't shortly get anyways.

Thief is a waste of a party slot.
Ninjas can behead, get better weapons and make the game much safer by eliminating half of enemy surprise attacks.

 

[turkishronin]

B-but they disarm traps

 

[Haplo]

So do ninjas. I guess thieves are better at that but... with some levels and high Luck, ninjas do a good job also. Or thief/ninja type summons.