Dishonored by Arkane

[DalekFlay]

Has anyone who worked on the game ever given any insight into trouble behind the scenes during development? Currently replaying the game and it definitely feels somewhat... neutered, like they wanted it to be longer, more open, and/or more reactive but couldn't do it. The stuff with Slackjaw and Granny Rags goes basically nowhere, for example. Hell, even the Outsider is barely used for anything outside of giving Corvo his powers; I think the only other time he shows up (not counting Shrines) is during the epilogue.

Slackjaw and Granny Rags do have an ending with their reappearance near the end of the game. You get to pick your poison: human evil or spiritual evil.

Not a massive plot segment but it doesn't "go nowhere."

 

[DraQ]

Has anyone who worked on the game ever given any insight into trouble behind the scenes during development? Currently replaying the game and it definitely feels somewhat... neutered, like they wanted it to be longer, more open, and/or more reactive but couldn't do it. The stuff with Slackjaw and Granny Rags goes basically nowhere, for example. Hell, even the Outsider is barely used for anything outside of giving Corvo his powers; I think the only other time he shows up (not counting Shrines) is during the epilogue.

Slackjaw and Granny Rags do have an ending with their reappearance near the end of the game. You get to pick your poison: human evil or spiritual evil.

Not a massive plot segment but it doesn't "go nowhere."

I don't think Slackjaw qualifies as human evil.

Sure, he's a gang boss, he can be pretty fucking brutal and he doesn't seem to mind such violence all that much, but by gang boss standards he's a very reasonable and almost nice person:

• while he doesn't seem to mind applying seemingly excessive violence to scare people into submission he favours diplomatic means and doesn't seem to employ violence needlessly or as first resort
  
• he seems fair an pretty honorable in his dealings with others
• he does supply a lot of poor neighbourhoods with elixir - sure, it's diluted and he does profit from that, but he still gives an awful lot of people a chance to survive and he should be able to shake people down without organizing elixir distribution chain, so it seems he cares when he can allow himself to
• he did stay in Dunwall despite things looking pretty dire and I don't think profits outweigh the risk in this case, nor do I think he isn't smart enough to realize that.
• he's probably the closest to peace and stability poorer districts will ever know and likely much better than watch in that regard

Yup, pretty much an upstanding fellow given the circumstances.

 

[Vibalist]

Are we really discussing the characters in Dishonored now?

 

[Infinitron]

I found the characterization in Dishonored to be very "Bethesda-like", in that many of the characters seem to have interesting and well-portrayed personalities, but they don't actually do much.

Not to mention the instantly recognizable Bethesda voice actors, argh. And the way it zooms in on their faces when you talk to them in "important" conversations. They probably could have avoided that in many cases. Though I was actually more annoyed by the ones who didn't zoom in, because there was always a delay before they shifted their body/head towards you to begin to speak. Fuck that.

 

[DraQ]

Are we really discussing the characters in Dishonored now?

Beats discussing textures.

Or AI.

 

[Vibalist]

Not to mention the instantly recognizable Bethesda voice actors, argh.

Who are these instantly recognizable Bethesda voice actors? Most of the (main) characters were voiced by relatively well known actors, such as Lena Headey, Michael Madsen and Chloe Grace Morettz (or however you spell her name). The real problem is that the characters were so devoid of personality and the voice direction so bad that they might as well have used unknown voice actors rather than wasting their budget on A-listers.

Only one who managed to do well was Madsen as Daud. He did a terrific job, though.

Are we really discussing the characters in Dishonored now?

Beats discussing textures.

Or AI.

No doubt my nigga, no doubt.

Still love this game to pieces, though.

 

[Infinitron]

Not to mention the instantly recognizable Bethesda voice actors, argh.

Who are these instantly recognizable Bethesda voice actors? Most of the (main) characters were voiced by relatively well known actors, such as Lena Headey, Michael Madsen and Chloe Grace Morettz (or however you spell her name). The real problem is that the characters were so devoid of personality and the voice direction so bad that they might as well have used unknown voice actors rather than wasting their budget on A-listers.

Only one who managed to do well was Madsen as Daud. He did a terrific job, though.

Well, I'm not talking just about the important characters, but also the generic commoner and maid characters etc.

But you're right, it's not just the voice actors themselves but also the style of diction.

I don't think the characters themselves were devoid of personality, however. For example, the Loyalist Trio, Havelock, Pendleton and Martin, were fairly well characterized. Although Martin's character could have been explored more. He was a bit underexposed compared to the other two.

 

[DraQ]

Still love this game to pieces, though.

Definitely a worthy DX-like .
Should still be criticized for stuff it could've done much better.

 

[Angthoron]

Not to mention the instantly recognizable Bethesda voice actors, argh.

Who are these instantly recognizable Bethesda voice actors? Most of the (main) characters were voiced by relatively well known actors, such as Lena Headey, Michael Madsen and Chloe Grace Morettz (or however you spell her name). The real problem is that the characters were so devoid of personality and the voice direction so bad that they might as well have used unknown voice actors rather than wasting their budget on A-listers.

Only one who managed to do well was Madsen as Daud. He did a terrific job, though.

Well, I'm not talking just about the important characters, but also the generic commoner and maid characters etc.

But you're right, it's not just the voice actors themselves but also the style of diction.

I don't think the characters themselves were devoid of personality, however. For example, the Loyalist Trio, Havelock, Pendleton and Martin, were fairly well characterized. Although Martin's character could have been explored more. He was a bit underexposed compared to the other two.

They're nice enough, yes. Sadly, they and their arc is ultimately pointless because their scheming should affect the protagonist, and since the protagonist pretty much doesn't exist, well, that bit of story is pretty much for nothing.

 

[TripJack]

I found the characterization in Dishonored to be very "Bethesda-like", in that many of the characters seem to have interesting and well-portrayed personalities

the characters in bethesda's garbage don't have personalities at all, much less interesting ones, what the fuck are you talking about

 

[Infinitron]

I found the characterization in Dishonored to be very "Bethesda-like", in that many of the characters seem to have interesting and well-portrayed personalities

the characters in bethesda's garbage don't have personalities at all, much less interesting ones, what the fuck are you talking about

I'm not an interested in getting into an argument about this now, but maybe I'll start a thread about it someday if I'm feeling frisky.

Note that "personality" doesn't mean "this person talks to you a lot throughout the game and has an important effect on the story". What I call "personality" or "characterization" is something distinct from that.

 

[yes plz]

Has anyone who worked on the game ever given any insight into trouble behind the scenes during development? Currently replaying the game and it definitely feels somewhat... neutered, like they wanted it to be longer, more open, and/or more reactive but couldn't do it. The stuff with Slackjaw and Granny Rags goes basically nowhere, for example. Hell, even the Outsider is barely used for anything outside of giving Corvo his powers; I think the only other time he shows up (not counting Shrines) is during the epilogue.

Slackjaw and Granny Rags do have an ending with their reappearance near the end of the game. You get to pick your poison: human evil or spiritual evil.

Not a massive plot segment but it doesn't "go nowhere."

Sure, it may not be literally nowhere but it's as close as you can get without the two of them up and disappearing. After the Golden Cat mission, the two cease to have any real impact on the game or the story in any significant way.

 

[DalekFlay]

Sure, it may not be literally nowhere but it's as close as you can get without the two of them up and disappearing. After the Golden Cat mission, the two cease to have any real impact on the game or the story in any significant way.

I think it's more a case of them being over-presented in the early levels very underrepresented in the later ones. They were side characters, not massive plot cogs.

 

[yes plz]

Sure, it may not be literally nowhere but it's as close as you can get without the two of them up and disappearing. After the Golden Cat mission, the two cease to have any real impact on the game or the story in any significant way.

I think it's more a case of them being over-presented in the early levels very underrepresented in the later ones. They were side characters, not massive plot cogs.

Them becoming underrepresented is pretty much my point here. They're set up as fairly prominent players of Dunwall... but then basically disappear for the majority of the game. Side objectives in general dwindle/become minimalist as the game goes on. I'm not saying either criticism greatly hurt the game (Hell, I really like it myself) but rather that it make the game feel somewhat incomplete/rushed after a certain point.

 

[Infinitron]

I agree that that whole "and now, GRANNY RAGS BOSS BATTLE!" segment near the end of the game was very awkward.

Although the scenario itself was a welcome change of pace.

 

[Siel]

I don't know if it has been posted here but when the game released, some former Arkane dev made a thread on /v/ and explained some of the dev or what when wrong with Dishonored.
I don't think he is lying because he stated The Evil Within and the new Wolfenstein were being developed before Bethesda announced them.

Here are some quotes :

At first, dishonored was a concept that Bethesda wanted. It was supposed to happen in japan (time with samurais, ninjas, things like that). Arkane refused and changed the concept (as they pretty much hate japan, like a lot of western devs)

Opening was radically changed and the stealth system (ala Thief 2, but improved).
The opening was a way bigger level, Corvo failed his escape and was decapitated (your head rolling in first person). The Outsider appeared and canceled this execution, making you escape with some help.
Soem levels were also a bit changed (they often got lost).
The ending was not changed because of playtesters, but the bad ending had Corvo die of the Plague.

From what I understand (left around the end of develoment), that's when bethesda was in charge of playtests that things started to really change.
From what I know, guys there are really incompetent, and are there due to relations (so they can't really be fired or moved elsewhere)

Playtesters had problems understanding that they could get upstairs (hurr durr what is a stealth game).
My biggest regret is that they cut the former stealth system (like thief 2, but a bit more advanced) due to them.

stealth system was changed around the end of dev. They hadn't a lot of time to verify everything. Also, leads wanted to make the game easier (except Colantonio and some others).

From what I understand : playtesters, Bethesda and Harvey Smith fucked up Dishonored

Threads :
http://archive.foolz.us/v/thread/159385073/#159391727
http://archive.foolz.us/v/thread/159392796/

 

[Infinitron]

I don't see anything there about Harvey Smith fucking anything up.

 

[Siel]

I don't see anything there about Harvey Smith fucking anything up.

Well when he mentions "lead devs except Colantonio" on Dishonored. Harvey was the other lead (or Creative Director). There are some other lead designers at Arkane (Ricardo Bare, Seth Shain) but I doubt they took decisions Raf or Harvey wouldn't examine. Not to mention Harvey is pretty casual friendly.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't see anything there about Harvey Smith fucking anything up.

Well when he mentions "lead devs except Colantonio" on Dishonored. Harvey was the other lead (or Creative Director). There are some other lead designers at Arkane (Ricardo Bare, Seth Shain) but I doubt they took decisions Raf or Harvey wouldn't examine. Not to mention Harvey is pretty casual friendly.

I'm not sure if he's made enough games that one can definitely deem him "casual friendly". It is possible that he didn't care enough about higher difficulty to argue about it with Bethesda and their playtesters, though.

Assuming this is real, I wonder sort of "higher difficulty" they originally had in mind. It is pretty hard to make a game where you can teleport around at will difficult, no matter how hard the enemies hit you if you get detected.

In fact, any game that is designed to allow you to move around without being detected will instantly become rather easy as soon as you've mastered the controls. It's kind of an inherent problem of the genre, which is why diversity of levels (as in Thief) is so important.

 

[Siel]

I don't see anything there about Harvey Smith fucking anything up.

Well when he mentions "lead devs except Colantonio" on Dishonored. Harvey was the other lead (or Creative Director). There are some other lead designers at Arkane (Ricardo Bare, Seth Shain) but I doubt they took decisions Raf or Harvey wouldn't examine. Not to mention Harvey is pretty casual friendly.

I'm not sure if he's made enough games that one can definitely deem him "casual friendly". It is possible that he didn't care enough about higher difficulty to argue about it with Bethesda and their playtesters, though.

Assuming this is real, I wonder sort of "higher difficulty" they originally had in mind. It is pretty hard to make a game where you can teleport around at will hard, no matter how hard the enemies hit you if you get detected.

In fact, any game that is designed to allow you to move around without being detected will instantly become rather easy as soon as you've mastered the controls. It's kind of an inherent problem of the genre, which is why diversity of levels (as in Thief) is so important.

I did read somewhere the Blink power was an optional power during development (high mana cost like Bend Time) and that they decided to make it necessary at the end of development. If you pay attention you can see a lot of chains that remain in the game and that turned useless with Blink.

 

[Infinitron]

Tell me if you can find a source for that.

 

[DeepOcean]

I did read somewhere the Blink power was an optional power during development (high mana cost like Bend Time) and that they decided to make it necessary at the end of development. If you pay attention you can see a lot of chains that remain in the game and that turned useless with Blink.

I finished the game without using Blink a single time and explored most stuff, how is it necessary?

 

[Infinitron]

dev !!ib6kYepD4Hj Sun Oct 21 2012 16:38:53 No.159392457 Report
Quoted By: >>159392690
>>159392102
Left before the end of the project (personal reasons) but still kept in touch with some devs.
They were supposed to make 3 DLCs (at least one fo them was a huge arena where you had to kill targets and make highscores (think Bulletstorm) depending on stealth and creativity.
I only know that they will make only one DLC now and that they are entering preproduction on a new title.
Bethesda wanted to milk Dishonored and make it a licence ala Bioshock but Arkane still has some liberties with them.

Hmmm.

 

[LESS T_T]

Stupid playtesters are not so news.

http://games.on.net/2012/09/dishonored-interview-arkane-on-stealth-ai-player-choice-and-much-more/

GON: Is that something that you find people doing? I expected the clues to be a bit more vague. Did you find this doing playtesting? Did you put it in because people didn’t know what to do?

Julien: Yeah. We try not to lead the player by the nose, but at some point we found that if we don’t give a little information, people just get lost and don’t know what to do. It’s just overwhelming. So we tried to add this element that gave just a hint, to help a little. But we try to do it as little as possible.

GON: It’s cool because there’s a lot of ways up the stairs, but it still felt a bit railroad-ey. What did people do before you put these clues in?

Julien: People would just walk around. They didn’t know what to do. They didn’t even go upstairs because a guard told them they couldn’t. They’d say “Okay, I can’t go upstairs.” They wouldn’t do anything.

Maybe Julien is the /v/ guy.
(Apparently it seems like he is not with Arkane anymore. His profile disappeared from Arkane's website. )



Well, at least Raph and Harvey lead different games now, and the game Raph lead is System Shock-like. That's a bit better, I think..

 

[Siel]

Tell me if you can find a source for that.

It's from an interview of Seth Shain (lead designer) in the Sneaky Bastards magazine

Stupid playtesters are not so news.

http://games.on.net/2012/09/dishonored-interview-arkane-on-stealth-ai-player-choice-and-much-more/

GON: Is that something that you find people doing? I expected the clues to be a bit more vague. Did you find this doing playtesting? Did you put it in because people didn’t know what to do?

Julien: Yeah. We try not to lead the player by the nose, but at some point we found that if we don’t give a little information, people just get lost and don’t know what to do. It’s just overwhelming. So we tried to add this element that gave just a hint, to help a little. But we try to do it as little as possible.

GON: It’s cool because there’s a lot of ways up the stairs, but it still felt a bit railroad-ey. What did people do before you put these clues in?

Julien: People would just walk around. They didn’t know what to do. They didn’t even go upstairs because a guard told them they couldn’t. They’d say “Okay, I can’t go upstairs.” They wouldn’t do anything.

Maybe Julien is the /v/ guy.
(Apparently it seems like he is not with Arkane anymore. His profile disappeared from Arkane's website. )



Well, at least Raph and Harvey lead different games now, and the game Raph lead is System Shock-like. That's a bit better, I think..

Would be sad because Julien is working at Arkane since Arx Fatalis.