Dishonored by Arkane

[CyberP]

I was in the mood for replaying DXHR and this one (post Looking Glass school popamoles). I went for OCD ghost achievements and stuff. Ho lee fuk, I forgot how Dishonored has actual stealth compared to DXHR. Muh radar, muh in-cover Q mashing...

Going for Mostly Flesh and Steel, Ghost and Clean Hands is quite the ordeal compared to DXHR stealth achievements...

Dishonored = play as stealth. Combat is real shit and considerably easy.
DX:HR = Play as combat. Stealth is real shit and considerably easy.

Both games are still bordering popamole, but they are at least worthwhile experiences this way.

 

[CyberP]

Games like Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, or God Hand are all designed to allow the player to defeat foes without being hit. But that doesn't mean it's easy to do so. And most of the controls in those games are extremely simple. You'd never have trouble executing a given technique (barring just-frame moves like perfect dodges/guards), but performing them in the correct sequence in the heat of battle against extremely aggressive foes can be quite tricky. These games give you a powerful character, but the player faces stiff opposition that can stand up (mostly) to the toolls available.

I feel the stealth genre might be enriched by adopting a similar style of escalation. Make powerful player characters, but up the ante in terms of the challenges they face. Use mission-specific time limits to make things a bit more stressful and hurried. Design levels without a lot of "safe space". Perhaps even develop an AI opposition that can actually "hunt" the player, making for more in-depth gameplay within a high-powered system. There's a lot of places that can be gone from the core gameplay of Dishonored.

Try my Deus Ex mod on hardcore mode, mother fucker.

 

[UndetectedButthurt]

Dishonored = play as stealth. Combat is real shit and considerably easy.
DX:HR = Play as combat. Stealth is real shit and considerably easy.

Both games are still bordering popamole, but they are at least worthwhile experiences this way.

Dishonored stealth is only decent if you're going for non-lethal ghost while exploring everything and getting all the loot. At very hard, combat is mechanically much harder. Especially if an alarm triggers infinite re-spawn shit, you're fucked.

Deus Ex stealth is hard only because Foxiest/Ghost achievements are bugged

 

[CyberP]

Dishonored stealth is only decent if you're going for non-lethal ghost while exploring everything and getting all the loot. At very hard, combat is mechanically much harder. Especially if an alarm triggers infinite re-spawn shit, you're fucked.

You're mistaken. Dishonored has no infinite spawns (or real-time spawning at all). An alarm simply alerts everyone in the currently loaded section of the level. My first playthrough was v.hard combat, and it was p. fucking easy.

 

[CyberP]

(or real-time spawning at all).

Well, this is not strictly true. It does have scripted spawns based on events in the story/general progress. Never anything related to an alarm though. I haven't played the DLC though, I'm talking about the main game only.

 

[UndetectedButthurt]

There's no infinite respawns everywhere, yeah. But I've done certain missions with multiple approaches to see that after you take out a bunch of guards quietly, there's always gonna be 1 or 2 spawning. Also, easiest example - blow up coldridge door in tutorial and you get infinite guards no matter how many you kill. 5 or something just spawn infinitely around the corner. I'm pretty sure that's not the only example either. The game takes way too many liberties with disappearing corpses and magically appearing guards.

Edit: my point is that you can't facetank the opposition like in DXHR. The guards will almost always overwhelm you and force you to blink away or abuse bend time or some shit.

 

[CyberP]

You can't be serious. There's no spawning, it's not difficult and you can absolutely destroy any wave of enemy with headshots and piss-easy counter attacks, and blinking all over the place to dodge attacks.

 

[CyberP]

There's no spawning

Apart from the aforementioned scripted events, such as blowing the door. About five guys come in, you fuck 'em up and that's it.

 

[CyberP]

I assume you're not the only Codexer that fails with real-time fast-paced action, considering the site favors turn-based, RTwP, Strategy games etc. Plus apart from shooters the majority of PC games in general are slow paced.

 

[UndetectedButthurt]

:australia:

Did I say that I had trouble with playing the game? I'm just putting in my two cents comparing DXHR and Dishonored since they both came from the same design school. Yeah, I'm no CS tournament player, but I get around shootan bad dudes just fine.

Oh yeah, I also have 1.2k hours in Dark Souls II and I pwn n00bs in PvP with my mega min-maxed murder-jester all day everyday. 1v1 ME FAGET etc.

 

[Raghar]

Dishonored stealth is only decent if you're going for non-lethal ghost while exploring everything and getting all the loot. At very hard, combat is mechanically much harder. Especially if an alarm triggers infinite re-spawn shit, you're fucked.

You're mistaken. Dishonored has no infinite spawns (or real-time spawning at all). An alarm simply alerts everyone in the currently loaded section of the level. My first playthrough was v.hard combat, and it was p. fucking easy.

Alarm spawns additional guards in many situations. For this reason it's vital to disable it.

You can edit ini files and prevent dissaperances of bodies.

 

[Nuclear Explosion]

Dishonored = play as stealth. Combat is real shit and considerably easy.
DX:HR = Play as combat. Stealth is real shit and considerably easy.

Both games are still bordering popamole, but they are at least worthwhile experiences this way.

Dishonored is one of the few games that actually has satisfying FPP melee combat. Although, sure, on very hard it's still easy but the combat is no way bad; it's actually pretty good.

Stealth, on the other hand, is very basic and average. It's also still easy even on very hard (and only using blink) but at least it's not as easy as combat.

Also Dishonored's level design is superior to DX: HR’s.

 

[UndetectedButthurt]

Stealth ,on the other hand, is very basic and average.It's also still easy even on very hard (and only using blink) but at least it's not as easy as combat.

Once you start hunting for no-detection runs, stealth suddenly becomes hard. Seemly perfect mission runs that don't have that ghost tick break my heart.

Compared to DXHR though... You don't get to 1-hit magical freeze takedown from any alarm state. You don't get a radar that tells you lines of sight, facing direction or noise levels.

 

[CyberP]

Dishonored is one of the few games that actually has satisfying FPP melee combat.

Eh, I don't find extremely simplistic melee combat (that doesn't even have any RPG systems tied to it beyond damage upgrade) to be satisfying, not to mention the massive time frame for activation of counter attacks. But yes, it is not bad.

"Also Dishonored's level design is superior to DX:HR's."

Most certainly in terms of layout, but is not rewarding enough in terms of loot (YET another health vial, more money I don't need, another rune I don't need and so on). Popamole Revolution's level design doesn't touch Dishonored's, but at least the slightly more in-depth RPG systems, loot and interactivity complimented the level design and made hacking door #129 seem slightly worth it. There's not even a grid-based inventory in Dish (like Thief), and that upsets me. Exploration seems pointless by level 4 in dish, there's no more power to attain.

They are both as bad as each other overall imo. Semi-popamole, but I think I prefer Popamole Revolution for mostly more personal reasons (more RPG systems, grid-based inventory, level design that rewards exploration).

"Alarm spawns additional guards in many situations. For this reason it's vital to disable it."

Eh, you two could be right about the spawning. I'm not an expert on the game by any means.

Vital in stealth, yes. In combat every enemy gets put down with ease.

 

[CyberP]

Exploration seems pointless by level 4 in dish, there's no more power to attain.

And you just don't need any of the general loot lying about. Like Bioshock you're practically tripping over the same ammo and health all the time, whereas in DX:HR you're more resource-starved by design, thankfully.

 

[CyberP]

Compared to DXHR though... You don't get to 1-hit magical freeze takedown from any alarm state. You don't get a radar that tells you lines of sight, facing direction or noise levels.

And then some. DXHR's stealth is abysmally bad in terms of challenge it is beyond popamole levels, they throw every hand holder ever conceived at you, and then throw in regenerating invisibility.
I feel almost the same way for Dish's combat. Dish stealth and DX:HR combat, however, I can enjoy.

 

[Metro]

Dishonored stealth is piss easy even with no powers and non-lethal. Only thing the game has going for it is the atmosphere.

 

[CyberP]

:australia:

Did I say that I had trouble with playing the game? I'm just putting in my two cents comparing DXHR and Dishonored since they both came from the same design school. Yeah, I'm no CS tournament player, but I get around shootan bad dudes just fine.

Oh yeah, I also have 1.2k hours in Dark Souls II and I pwn n00bs in PvP with my mega min-maxed murder-jester all day everyday. 1v1 ME FAGET etc.

I love me some Dark Souls, but in overall gameplay pace for real time it is around average speed.

 

[CyberP]

Dishonored stealth is piss easy even with no powers and non-lethal. Only thing the game has going for it is the atmosphere.

It is more challenging than Pop Revolution, this is certain.

 

[Nuclear Explosion]

Stealth ,on the other hand, is very basic and average.It's also still easy even on very hard (and only using blink) but at least it's not as easy as combat.

Once you start hunting for no-detection runs, stealth suddenly becomes hard. Seemly perfect mission runs that don't have that ghost tick break my heart.

Compared to DXHR though... You don't get to 1-hit magical freeze takedown from any alarm state. You don't get a radar that tells you lines of sight, facing direction or noise levels.

I did about half the levels without being detected; it's not particularity difficult.

I haven't played DX:HR in a while so I can't really comment on whether it's more difficult or not.

 

[racofer]

:ehue:

 

[DraQ]

I was in the mood for replaying DXHR and this one (post Looking Glass school popamoles). I went for OCD ghost achievements and stuff. Ho lee fuk, I forgot how Dishonored has actual stealth compared to DXHR. Muh radar, muh in-cover Q mashing...

Going for Mostly Flesh and Steel, Ghost and Clean Hands is quite the ordeal compared to DXHR stealth achievements...

Dishonored = play as stealth. Combat is real shit and considerably easy.
DX:HR = Play as combat. Stealth is real shit and considerably easy.

Both games have shit stealth.

Even disregarding sticky cover DX:HR has patrol paths purposefully set to avoid peeking behind obvious cover (as in stopping a literal step before being able to see into obvious hiding spots) and allow permanent, unconditionally safe hiding spots in patrolled areas, vents that apparently are high sorcery to the AI, and AI that fails to investigate beyond last seen position (you run into room and duck right by the side of the door, pursuing AI stops at the doorstep, peeks inside and looks a bit to the left and right, then concludes it will never find you, all while you could easily just reach out and tap it in the knee with your cyberarm).

Dishonored has blink and AI that never, ever looks up, despite the multitude of rooftop and under-ceiling stealth routes.

Both games have inexplicably noiseless nonlethal takedowns - in DX you have two guys maybe a meter apart, one looks away for a few seconds, you creep from behind the nearest box, knock the other guy out by punching him really hard in the face and throwing him to the floor once or twice for a good measure (all in complete silence), then drape him over your shoulder and creep into nearest vent; in Dishonored you have two guys maybe a meter apart, one looks away for a few seconds, you blink from under the ceiling choke the other guy out (in complete silence despite the guy struggling), then drape him over your shoulder and blink back onto a ceiling lamp or into a ceiling vent. In either case it's a fucking joke.

Also, Mostly flesh and steel is a self imposed challenge. Sure, so is not using sticky cover I advocate in DX:HR, but at least the latter is avoiding unrealistic, game-y mechanics (being able to see without peeking your vulnerable head out), while the former is avoiding the fucking plot point (Outsider gave you all those nifty powers, also you have to use blink to progress a few times) for no fucking reason.

As for the combat, both DX:HR (sans cover system) and Dishonored are pretty challenging and fun on highest difficulty.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't understand how anybody could say a game with Blink has harder stealth than a game without Blink.

Dishonored's combat is pretty cool. It was originally supposed to be a Dark Messiah-esque pure action game.

 

[CyberP]

I don't understand how anybody could say a game with Blink has harder stealth than a game without Blink.
.

Primarily because of regenerating invisibility. This essentially means you can be invisible at all times. Cloak, move, wait & hide whilst regenerating, rinse & repeat.
Then to pile on top you have third person cover, radar, see through walls, silent running and various other stealth aids.
Blink too regenerates, but it is not quite permanent invisiblity levels of bullshit and there are not as many other aids, and you're forced to first person.

 

[DraQ]

I don't understand how anybody could say a game with Blink has harder stealth than a game without Blink.
.

Primarily because of regenerating invisibility. This essentially means you can be invisible at all times. Cloak, move, wait & hide whilst regenerating, rinse & repeat.
Then to pile on top you have third person cover, radar, see through walls, silent running and various other stealth aids.
Blink too regenerates, but it is not quite permanent invisiblity levels of bullshit and there are not as many other aids, and you're forced to first person.

Energy regen only works within current cell. Invisibility is very power hungry and takedown always eats an entire cell's worth of energy. You can't keep cloaking while punching people in the face without consumables, it's unsustainable.
Sticky cover is gamebreaking, but less so than ability to observe the environment undetected you get by using overhead routes in Dishonored.
Radar is of questionable utility as it only tracks target that have been acquired visually, unless you upgrade it, which is a waste of praxis points, so is enabling HUD stealth aids such as noise monitoring.

OTOH blink is essentially free if you allow it to regen and it regens quickly, allowing for constant invisibility in conjunction with omnipresent overhead stealth routes.

Both games have see through walls as purchaseable upgrades, Dishonored's version even projects real time 3D sight cone.