Dishonored by Arkane

[LESS T_T]

Oh, and this thing...

http://www.gameplanet.com.au/xbox-360/features/g4faadba74e94e/Dishonored-the-art-of-stealth/

Anything that didn't make the cut?

Smith: We eventually abandoned the idea, because it wasn't much fun, but an early idea was that when you used magic, it wasn't going to use mana, it was just going to drain your health. I still kind of wish we had that as a mode, for the super-hardcore player who wants to use magic possession, teleportation and all that, every time he does that his health bar goes down. But it's something that one percent of the audience would like and everyone else wouldn't.

Colantonio: We should do a super-hardcore mode for that.

Smith: Yeah!

 

[Siel]

Oh, and this thing...

http://www.gameplanet.com.au/xbox-360/features/g4faadba74e94e/Dishonored-the-art-of-stealth/

Anything that didn't make the cut?
Smith: We eventually abandoned the idea, because it wasn't much fun, but an early idea was that when you used magic, it wasn't going to use mana, it was just going to drain your health. I still kind of wish we had that as a mode, for the super-hardcore player who wants to use magic possession, teleportation and all that, every time he does that his health bar goes down. But it's something that one percent of the audience would like and everyone else wouldn't.

Colantonio: We should do a super-hardcore mode for that.

Smith: Yeah!

What a weird idea.

 

[racofer]

They have to think of new things to boost difficulty when they suck at level design.

 

[Siel]

They have to think of new things to boost difficulty when they suck at level design.

Hmm. I thought level design in Dishonored was pretty good actually (except maybe Flooded District and the Bridge mission).

I was reading the Sneaky Bastards magazine and found out Terri Brosius was also a writer on Dishonored. I didn't know that.

 

[Baron Dupek]

Stupid playtesters are not so news.

I readed about that some time before game release.

What do you expect from people playing popamole games or modern shooters with clear objectiver with constant "GO GO GO!".

 

[Data4]

Also, if they don't derp and manage to make it really great, with much larger maps and awesome level design, I think a sequel based on the Pandyssian continent would be a blast. A great opportunity for Arkane to pull a Thief TDP and explore paganism, bizarre creatures and lots of crazy stuff mixed with the ordinary world we've seen in the first one.

And for maximum glorious lulz, hire Stephen Russell to voice the PC.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

It is pretty hard to make a game where you can teleport around at will difficult, no matter how hard the enemies hit you if you get detected.

Nah, just make strict time limits for missions. That's an incredibly easy way to make the game more difficult, as it forces the player to read the maps and execute proper tactics under pressure. What makes Dishonored relatively simple isn't the fact that the character has a plethora of powers...it's that you're never really under the gun when using them. One can always move in a methodical fashion, making proper execution rather trivial. Introduce a constraint on time and things become more interesting.

I felt the stealth of Dishonored was best when played "quick"; trying to take in as much information as possible and stealth through areas at breakneck pace. Unfortunately, the designers didn't really accommodate for this as one is punished for using power in sequence. The numerous collectibles strewn about levels didn't help either.

In fact, any game that is designed to allow you to move around without being detected will instantly become rather easy as soon as you've mastered the controls.

Games like Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, or God Hand are all designed to allow the player to defeat foes without being hit. But that doesn't mean it's easy to do so. And most of the controls in those games are extremely simple. You'd never have trouble executing a given technique (barring just-frame moves like perfect dodges/guards), but performing them in the correct sequence in the heat of battle against extremely aggressive foes can be quite tricky. These games give you a powerful character, but the player faces stiff opposition that can stand up (mostly) to the toolls available.

I feel the stealth genre might be enriched by adopting a similar style of escalation. Make powerful player characters, but up the ante in terms of the challenges they face. Use mission-specific time limits to make things a bit more stressful and hurried. Design levels without a lot of "safe space". Perhaps even develop an AI opposition that can actually "hunt" the player, making for more in-depth gameplay within a high-powered system. There's a lot of places that can be gone from the core gameplay of Dishonored.

 

[SoupNazi]

Use mission-specific time limits to make things a bit more stressful and hurried.

I mostly agree with the rest, but I have yet to see a sensible implementation of a time limit basically anywhere. Maybe the original Fallout. Otherwise, it's either too relaxed to have a sense of urgency, or it's on the opposite end of the scale where it's just frustrating.

 

[DeepOcean]

Nah, just make strict time limits for missions.

Timed missions on stealth games just make you go insane with trial and error and failure by clock is really annoying.

 

[Infinitron]

Well, Edward_R_Murrow, notice that I said

any game that is designed to allow you to move around without being detected

So your solution is to suggest a mechanic that forces the player to seriously risk being detected. There are less strenuous ways of achieving that. For example, "forced ghosting" - forbidding the player from neutralizing foes. This approach is commonly associated with Amnesia-esque horror games nowadays, but it doesn't have to be.

I still say there's an internal conflict within the genre here, though. The thing is that games like Thief and Dishonored aren't really just "stealth games". What they actually are is "non-linear content discovery/area exploration adventures" that use stealth (and in Dishonored, a bit more than stealth) as a binding element. So, I don't believe that making stealth a consistently challenging mechanic is actually a design goal with these games.

They also have simulation pretensions - they don't want to be excessively "gamey" and put contrived limitations on the player's abilities. "I can't knock this guy out? Why can't I knock him out?" "Why is there a time limit?" Etc.

 

[Siel]

If I had to make the stealth more challenging, I'd have Blink make a lot of noise when used. This wouldn't bother action type players and would challenge stealth type players.
I don't know why Arkane didn't think of this.

 

[Farage]

Why didn't i feel like playing the game after the three first missions?
Anyone else or just me?

 

[DalekFlay]

The game actually has very well done level design from an "achieving what you set out to do" point of view. The problem is they set out to make the game too easy.

The DLC is much better in this regard.

 

[Siel]

The game actually has very well done level design from an "achieving what you set out to do" point of view. The problem is they set out to make the game too easy.

The DLC is much better in this regard.

It certainly has much better level design than the new Thief game (from what I've seen so far).

 

[Vibalist]

Dishonored could easily have been more difficult if there had simply been more guards who had more overlapping routes. Or if the AI was better at hunting you, didn't forget it if they'd spotted you (maybe have the whole entire level on full alert for the rest of the mission if spotted) and had better vision and hearing.

It's not impossible at all to make a game hard even if the PC is a powerful mage facing off against regular opponents. Their abilities and numbers just need to be upped, and they need to be placed throughout the level in such a way that dodging them is not always a straightforward affair, even with teleportation skills and whatnot. Alternatively you could introduce enemies later in the game that also have magic powers (kind of like the assassins, but where they're better at using said powers) and use more of those dogs and give them the ability to sniff you out or something. Using more overseers with music boxes would be a nice idea. Or tallboys. You could also place more limits on the usage of powers (like non-regenerating mana) so the powers become a luxury rather than standard procedure.

I'm no game designer, but I'm sure Dishonored, with the right design and ideas, could easily become challenging without removing the players' powers. Because those powers are, even if they make the game easy in its current state, really, really fun to have.

 

[Infinitron]

Dishonored could easily have been more difficult if there had simply been more guards who had more overlapping routes. Or if the AI was better at hunting you, didn't forget it if they'd spotted you (maybe have the whole entire level on full alert for the rest of the mission if spotted) and had better vision and hearing.

It's not impossible at all to make a game hard even if the PC is a powerful mage facing off against regular opponents. Their abilities and numbers just need to be upped, and they need to be placed throughout the level in such a way that dodging them is not always a straightforward affair, even with teleportation skills and whatnot. Alternatively you could introduce enemies later in the game that also have magic powers (kind of like the assassins, but where they're better at using said powers) and use more of those dogs and give them the ability to sniff you out or something. Using more overseers with music boxes would be a nice idea. Or tallboys. You could also place more limits on the usage of powers (like non-regenerating mana) so the powers become a luxury rather than standard procedure.

I'm no game designer, but I'm sure Dishonored, with the right design and ideas, could easily become challenging without removing the players' powers. Because those powers are, even if they make the game easy in its current state, really, really fun to have.

The question isn't whether you can make it hard - of course you can. It's whether you can make it hard while still allowing a clear "stealth path" throughout the game where a player can reasonably expect to eliminate almost everybody and alert nobody. This is a design goal that's often expected of "stealth games".

 

[DalekFlay]

The question isn't whether you can make it hard - of course you can. It's whether you can make it hard while still allowing a clear "stealth path" throughout the game where a player can reasonably expect to alert nobody. This is a design goal that's often expected of "stealth games".

Indeed, and I think the DLC achieved this. It's still easier to ghost than Thief, but it's much more challenging. Especially the final level of the DLC story.

 

[Infinitron]

So, I finished the DLCs last night. Some thoughts:

Better level design all around, more open, more Thiefy. Good stuff. The last two missions of the Brigmore Witches are the best in the entire game and begin to reach Thief caliber level design. The Knife of Dunwall isn't quite as impressive though. The Surge especially was kinda boring - I think maybe they could have found a better way to integrate the defeated Overseer invasion that Corvo saw into the story of the DLC.

Overall though the DLC brings much-needed diversity that was missing from the base game. Competing street gangs, giant whales, mad scientists, spellcasting witches with undead dogs. And I love the terrain around the Brigmore Manor, it's such a refreshing change.

My favorite moment though, and this may sound weird, is when you dive through an underwater tunnel near the Dead Eels' ship which takes you into an otherwise inaccessible building with a rune in it. That sense of spatial contrast, of being transported between totally different types of places with different moods and appearances, is something that I now realize that Thief did often. For example, diving into the well and finding yourself in Lord Bafford's basement in the very first level of TDP. It makes the world seem big and REAL, as opposed to the "blinking arenas" that Dishonored levels usually feel like.

The Brigmore Witches themselves seem to be an allusion to the Trickster from Thief with the bright green plants they grow everywhere, and the last stage of the last mission is an obvious homage to the Maw of Chaos. Too bad it's really just the final room of the Maw of Chaos and not the entire level. Also, they totally should have ripped off the bell-twinkling sound you always heard in Trickster-infested areas in Thief.

I think the "Daud is an actual character!" thing is overrated. OK, he talks and that's nice, but I don't know, it didn't seem like a massive difference to me. He isn't that interesting, just a tough guy voiced by Michael Madsen.

Difficulty. As far as stealth play goes, the DLC missions do seem perhaps slightly more difficult than the base game's. NPCs seem slightly more perceptive, and there are various "gotcha" situations here and there. I don't think it's really enough to make a serious difference for an expert player, though, and I wouldn't hype up these missions to stealth players based on their difficulty. It's really basically the same stuff. Time freezing blinking is fun to play around with, but it certainly does nothing to make the game harder.

I liked that money is more limited, and the between-mission store with Thief-style favors that you can buy is a nice touch. They're not all minor stuff, either. Being able to choose whether or not to disguise yourself as an Overseer at Coldridge Prison is a big difference. Kudos to Arkane for implementing things like that.

Non-lethal (and in general, unique/unusual) methods of eliminating targets are less tacked-on than they were in the main game, where it's often obvious that they were added relatively late in development. Capturing and interrogating targets, getting them in trouble with the law and arrested, it all seems much more fleshed out. The Nurse Trimble/Geezer situation is actually a great little piece of C&C that would fit in any RPG. The C&C-type stuff in the DLC is overall more well done than it was in the original game, with its embarrassing ambiguously worded lines of dialog ("you took down the High Overseer!")

Anyway, now I'm done, so Metro can relax...until I find the next game to play for 90 hours.

 

[Siel]

So, I finished the DLCs last night. Some thoughts:
I think the "Daud is an actual character!" thing is overrated. OK, he talks and that's nice, but I don't know, it didn't seem like a massive difference to me. He isn't that interesting, just a tough guy voiced by Michael Madsen.

I really agree with you on this one and I thought I was actually the only one who prefered playing as Corvo in Dishonored. I don't know somehow Daud talking seemed like an immersion breaker as sometimes his comments didn't reflect how I played. The strange thing is that I never had this problem with Garrett but I believe that's because Thief overall is a more classical stealth game where you should play as a thief whereas Dishonored is more a sandbox stealth game.

 

[DalekFlay]

Some people just hate silent protagonists from the start and praise anything other than that.

 

[DeepOcean]

Some people just hate silent protagonists from the start and praise anything other than that.

Yeah, I agree but I think it isn't only the fact of people demanding voice acting all the time. If you allow complete freedom to create a character, a voiced protagonist will inevitably sound off many times as the voice acting won't match with what the player expects but if you define a character and then remove his voice things start getting weird.

Corvo had a name, a profession, a social position, a "family" and the story was about revenge, a really strong and personal desire, his silence was annoying especially on scenes that theoretically should be emotional. You could talk with the other characters in the pub as well but it was really strange as you couldn't hear a back and forth between the characters and Corvo making the impression the characters were talking random things with themselves. The result of all of this is you feeling detached from the story as you are controlling a character someone else imposed on you but you would ever get to know because he doesn't speak. They didn't knew if they should had gone with a more abstracted story or a more defined one so they tried to go with both and caused confusion.

On the DLC, Daud is different, his personality and history are less defined but he talks what doesn't make sense either, honestly...Garret's smug and sarcastic writing/voice acting makes Daud look like a complete bore in comparison. So the question is: Inappropriate use of silent protagonists or voiced protagonists with Arkane's shitty/boring writing?

 

[Heresiarch]

I've just started playing it (just reached the Golden Cat) and it's so far a surprisingly good game for me. This is actually the 4th time I've tried it, all the other tries were given up before leaving the prison in the prologue, due to:
- Ugly character models (though I supposed it to be its art direction)
- Weird stealth mechanism (shadows are useless wtf?)
- Enemies too lethal (well you're not supposed to be spotted but whatever)

But this time, when the first real mission began, I've became completely absorbed into the game. For instance, I never expected the first mission would be so large in areas and so many approaches to do it (even more than DX:HR). The details are fantastic, from character dialogues to the readable stuff lying around. Even the way you are allowed to eliminate targets are so many. High vs low chaos, lethal vs non-lethal, different powers, etc. seem to be able to make the game play out like very different branches in different playthroughs, not unlike Witcher 2's Roche vs Ioverth. One moment which genuinely amazed me was the dialogue between three overseers in the backyard of the first mission. The first try I was there they had dialogue A. After the mission I purchased a legit version and restarted and when I was there, they were having a completely different dialogue set B. A little bit more research into the chaos thing reveals that it's affecting much more than I expected, which is something DX:HR should feel ashamed of.

Anyway it's a pleasant game which strangely enough I feel more attached to than DX:HR. In DX:HR there were many moments that make me want to sleep.

 

[MapMan]

I want to enjoy this game so much but the gameplay always boils down to teleporting behind enemies and choking them down until the map is empty. Blessed are those without aspergers who can go full retard chaos approach. I really need to try the DLCs if they are any better.

 

[Siel]

I want to enjoy this game so much but the gameplay always boils down to teleporting behind enemies and choking them down until the map is empty. Blessed are those without aspergers who can go full retard chaos approach. I really need to try the DLCs if they are any better.

My best playthought out of it was stealth/lethal.

 

[UndetectedButthurt]

I was in the mood for replaying DXHR and this one (post Looking Glass school popamoles). I went for OCD ghost achievements and stuff. Ho lee fuk, I forgot how Dishonored has actual stealth compared to DXHR. Muh radar, muh in-cover Q mashing...

Going for Mostly Flesh and Steel, Ghost and Clean Hands is quite the ordeal compared to DXHR stealth achievements...