Dark Sun: Shattered Lands is fucking great

[Sacred82]

Saduj that said, and while I do think it pioneered a certain kind of isometric, branching-dialogue-based RPGs, it is missing one key feature of BG: companions.

 

[MRY]

Are you saying that's not a key feature (maybe the key feature) of BG? I'm not saying I liked it (indeed, I don't really like the BG series that much for any elements), but if you ask someone what defines BG, they'll probably say, "Go for the eyes, boo" and "You must gather your party before venturing forth." After that, romancing companions. Sad but true.

If Darksun had replaced full-party creation with pandering to, psychoanalyzing, and then seducing pre-made companions in the worst traditions of the therapist profession, SSI's RPG division probably would've survived long enough for EA to consume it. :D

 

[Sacred82]

Are you saying that's not a key feature (maybe the key feature) of BG?

ummm

no?

It's also missing tech research, one of the key features of Civilization.

If Darksun had replaced full-party creation with pandering to, psychoanalyzing, and then seducing pre-made companions in the worst traditions of the therapist profession, SSI's RPG division probably would've survived long enough for EA to consume it. :D

well there were companions in what came after it, Ravenlofts and Menzoberranzan.

And much good it did them.

 

[MRY]

It's also missing tech research, one of the key features of Civilization.

I don't get the joke, alas.

well there were companions in what came after it, Ravenlofts and Menzoberranzan.

And much good it did them.

At this point, I'm wondering whether you played BG or SSI's games.

 

[Sacred82]

wut

 

[MRY]

The companions in Ravenloft and Menzoberranzan bear no resemblance at all to the companions in BG and the games that follower.

 

[Sacred82]

RL and Menzo weren't exactly gud games is what I'm saying.

Wether you had companions in there or not didn't really add or take away, certainly not when you had companions like fucking Drizzt.

Dark Sun is a game with little NPC interaction, or at least verbosity. Companions would be wack out of place/ unnecessary.


I would concede that it could have increased replayability though. DS parties tend to end up looking kind of samey. There's no reason really to not slap as many classes on everyone as possible, you'll want two healers, a preserver, and a Half-Giant is p. much mandatory as well. Intentionally gimping the player's party with a single class Thri-Kreen Ranger or Half-Elf Preserver would have mixed things up.

edit: if you're entirely coming from the angle of wether Dark Sun kind of made a mould for BG you're barking up the wrong tree btw. In fact the reliance on companions in the SSI games after that say more in that regard, as does the transition to real time combat in those games.

 

[Sacred82]

The companions in Ravenloft and Menzoberranzan bear no resemblance at all to the companions in BG and the games that follower.

BG1 companions were mostly fluff. Having to go kill some gnolls to gain Minsc or Edwin was already exceptionally deep and involved. Not much difference to SSI games there.

 

[MRY]

edit: if you're entirely coming from the angle of wether Dark Sun kind of made a mould for BG you're barking up the wrong tree btw.

Errr... it's not barking up a tree, it's following a line of discussion?

It's essentially a Baldur's Gate precursor with turn-based combat and a more interesting setting.

That said, and while I do think it pioneered a certain kind of isometric, branching-dialogue-based RPGs, it is missing one key feature of BG: companions. Even the NPCs who join the party are pretty much ciphers.

Also, you seem to have missed the (extremely heavy) sarcasm in:

If Darksun had replaced full-party creation with pandering to, psychoanalyzing, and then seducing pre-made companions in the worst traditions of the therapist profession, SSI's RPG division probably would've survived long enough for EA to consume it. :D

Perhaps either I'm not communicating coherently or you're just goofing on me, but either way doesn't make much sense to derail the thread further.

 

[Sacred82]

edit: if you're entirely coming from the angle of wether Dark Sun kind of made a mould for BG you're barking up the wrong tree btw.

Errr... it's not barking up a tree, it's following a line of discussion?

not my line though, I simply took offense to bringing up companions and Dark Sun in the same sentence. Carry on then.

Also, you seem to have missed the (extremely heavy) sarcasm in:

If Darksun had replaced full-party creation with pandering to, psychoanalyzing, and then seducing pre-made companions in the worst traditions of the therapist profession, SSI's RPG division probably would've survived long enough for EA to consume it. :D

my (extremely accute) senses picked up on your sarcasm, you did seem to be coming from the point that companions are an advantage of BG or at least an objective evolution.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

It is the best rpg game.

 

[thesheeep]

my (extremely accute) senses picked up on your sarcasm, you did seem to be coming from the point that companions are an advantage of BG or at least an objective evolution.

Of course they are an advantage, if done right.
As MRY said, one of the most memorable things about the BG games are the companions. The wonderful, delightful cheesiness of Minsc and the likes of Aerie are unmatched.
What memories do I have of my fully self-created parties in Dark Sun, IWD, Wasteland, etc.? None.
I can identify with my main character (if the game lets me), but I can't be assed to try and "roleplay" a whole bunch of people.
Anyone besides the main character will just always be fluff to me, and so it is better if the game provides something memorable.

Of course, memorable goes both ways, so the memories I have of some other BioWare companions is... less positive than the hilarity of Minsc.

Besides, at least BG also let you create your entire party yourself, if you preferred that.

 

[MRY]

my (extremely accute) senses picked up on your sarcasm, you did seem to be coming from the point that companions are an advantage of BG or at least an objective evolution.

BG made a lot of money off its companions. I didn't care for them. But many of my favorite RPGs (PS:T, MOTB, KOTOR2) based party interactions off BG's mold, so I can hardly be too hard on the game. On the other hand, there are other RPGs I've loved that had either no companions (AOD, V:TM:B) or very thin companions (Fallout, DS:SL).

I do think that if DS:SL had gone the BG route, it might well have been more successful. DS:SL was the most console-RPG looking (and feeling) RPG of its time, and it's not impossible that it (rather than BG) could've been the game that brought jRPG types onto the PC.

 

[Sacred82]

my (extremely accute) senses picked up on your sarcasm, you did seem to be coming from the point that companions are an advantage of BG or at least an objective evolution.

BG made a lot of money off its companions. I didn't care for them. But many of my favorite RPGs (PS:T, MOTB, KOTOR2) based party interactions off BG's mold, so I can hardly be too hard on the game. On the other hand, there are other RPGs I've loved that had either no companions (AOD, V:TM:B) or very thin companions (Fallout, DS:SL).

welp, at that point CRPG companions were so new and interactions so obvious and simple, I don't think we actually have to give BG much credit except for going there at all (which was a really obvious route though). BG1 companions were really just henchmen with a little text. BGII already made huge leaps, Keldorn is an example that comes to my mind.

The BG reputation mechanic was actually pretty fucking horrible and a very primitive way to inject some dynamics into companions.

I do think that if DS:SL had gone the BG route, it might well have been more successful. DS:SL was the most console-RPG looking (and feeling) RPG of its time, and it's not impossible that it (rather than BG) could've been the game that brought jRPG types onto the PC.

it did poorly in reviews back then IIRC. I think bugs upon release accounted for a lot of that, but people were also very reluctant to accept that radical step away from tried and true CRPG formulas, especially the Goldbox one. Reviewers really got off on the adventure mechanics though, which may be a sign a lot of them hadn't actually made it out into the deep desert. Even the art style which fans of the game love drew criticism for being too cute and not gritty enough. I don't know what people were waiting for at that time, but it apparently wasn't Shattered Lands.

 

[Sacred82]

my (extremely accute) senses picked up on your sarcasm, you did seem to be coming from the point that companions are an advantage of BG or at least an objective evolution.

Of course they are an advantage, if done right.

we're talking BG here, not Wolkenkuckucksheim

 

[Skall]

MRY Calling Dark Sun: Shattered Lands Baldur's Gate with turn-based combat was a simplification, but I don't think it's an unreasonable one. Sure, pre-scripted companions were definitely not one of Shattered Lands' features, but when I recently played Baldur's Gate, I was actually surprised at the sparseness of its companion interactions. I think -- like many -- I tend to conflate those with how they were implemented in Planescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate II.

While a fully player-generated party is definitely more of an SSI than a BioWare thing, Shattered Lands still felt closer for me to Baldur's Gate than traditional Gold Box titles. The flow of the overall progression was spot-on, and there were various elements that seemed like prescursors to Baldur's Gate: inventory dragging 'n' dropping, dialogue trees for conversations, world item interactions rather than (sometimes) illustrated CYOA, multiple hub areas, right-click tooltips, instant level ups, status effect indicators, extra lore for magical items (via the desert merchants), no weight for gold, dynamic cursors and more visuals for combat targeting, etc.

Plus, there was the whole D&D backbone, and a fully controllable party, so I associate the game more with the BioWare "successors" rather than Fallout or other contemporaries.

P.S. Good luck with Fallen Gods!

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Pretty much every innovation you mention existed in Ultima games up to 3 years ahead of Dark Sun. The key innovation for DS was seamless transition from exploration to TB combat in the same view.

 

[Sacred82]

Pretty much every innovation you mention existed in Ultima games up to 3 years ahead of Dark Sun. The key innovation for DS was seamless transition from exploration to TB combat in the same view.

UVI also did that in 1990

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Pretty much every innovation you mention existed in Ultima games up to 3 years ahead of Dark Sun.

Not true dialogue trees, though, at least not as we understand them today. Ultima 7 just had keyword lists and that only came out the year before DS:SL.

versus

This is as far back as my genre knowledge goes, but they took this from adventure games like Monkey Island, right?

 

[Skall]

Pretty much every innovation you mention existed in Ultima games up to 3 years ahead of Dark Sun. The key innovation for DS was seamless transition from exploration to TB combat in the same view.

I was specifically referring to what SSI games were doing beforehand, and what BioWare did when they got the D&D license.

 

[Fowyr]

Not true dialogue trees, though, at least not as we understand them today. Ultima 7 just had keyword lists and that only came out the year before DS:SL.

Ultima Underworld had dialogue trees.

 

[JarlFrank]

The first game I know of that had dialogue trees was Lucas Arts' Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade from 1989. Earlier adventure games, both by LA and by Sierra, didn't have dialogue trees, and RPGs didn't have them at that point either.

So that might be the origin of this feature.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Pretty much every innovation you mention existed in Ultima games up to 3 years ahead of Dark Sun.

Not true dialogue trees, though, at least not as we understand them today. Ultima 7 just had keyword lists and that only came out the year before DS:SL.

This is as far back as my genre knowledge goes, but they took this from adventure games like Monkey Island, right?

I rather disliked the keyword method in U7 myself, especially since I played Ultima Underworld first where branching dialog was used to learn the Lizardman language.

 

[madrigal]

I was having fun building up characters in the Arena and then the game decided it finally had enough.

 

[mondblut]

while I do think it pioneered a certain kind of isometric, branching-dialogue-based RPGs, it is missing one key feature of BG: companions.

And good riddance!