KickStarter ATOM RPG - Wasteland Soviet style! - now with Dead City update

[panda]

Melee, pistols and automatic weapons should NOT be balanced to be equally viable, just like they are not in real life encounters.

Can't agree more. I scratch my head while reading all those "melee underpowered" posts. The only way you are going to succeed with a knife against a machinegunner is surprise attack.
Thus sneak + melee should be viable endgame option, not pure melee.

On a related note, did you think of an ability that would make nearby enemies receive massive penalty to hit with firearms? On top of the penalty for shooting from close that some weapons get by default. It would seem believable that if there's a knife or chainsaw wielding opponent a meter or two away, aiming would be more difficult. To somewhat mitigate the danger of burst at point blank. It could replace the largely useless dodge bonus.

Actually all ranged weapons should get a penalty if there's an enemy in a nearby hex.

I think melee perk to 100% dodge first bullet shot from within 2-3 tiles would be perfect fit.

 

[Van-d-all]

I think melee perk to 100% dodge first bullet shot from within 2-3 tiles would be perfect fit.

Perk sounds like a band aid, and what I mean is an across the board mechanic that makes all ranged weapon users want to maintain distance while making HtH actually viable in specific situations. Pair it with AP cost to switch weapons and I might even consider a CQB perk lowering that penalty on ranged weapons reasonable.

 

[krilcebre]

If so, why would you even have a melee skill and perk tree? You could just as well remove those, along with pistols and also shields,since they aren't useful later in the game anyway, meaning you pretty much lost all those points you hsve been investing for 10-15 levels, or even more. This is a game, not a real life simulator. A grenade in the face should be more powerful than a bullet, but it doesn't work that way in the game. Why? Because balance. So then why not balance everything and make more viable builds instead of having to finish a game using the same old ar or rifle build every time. Nobody sane would invest points into skills and perks that are for dire need only, meaning you don't need them anyway.

 

[Van-d-all]

If so, why would you even have a melee skill and perk tree? You could just as well remove those, along with pistols and also shields,since they aren't useful later in the game anyway, meaning you pretty much lost all those points you hsve been investing for 10-15 levels, or even more. This is a game, not a real life simulator. A grenade in the face should be more powerful than a bullet, but it doesn't work that way in the game. Why? Because balance. So then why not balance everything and make more viable builds instead of having to finish a game using the same old ar or rifle build every time. Nobody sane would invest points into skills and perks that are for dire need only, meaning you don't need them anyway.

Because it gives build possibilities, and playing with various builds is largely what makes cRPG replayability fun. All the while keeping the melee weapons situational and befitting the dog eat dog economy of post apocalyptic survival game.

 

[panda]

I think melee perk to 100% dodge first bullet shot from within 2-3 tiles would be perfect fit.

Perk sounds like a band aid, and what I mean is an across the board mechanic that makes all ranged weapon users want to maintain distance while making HtH actually viable in specific situations. Pair it with AP cost to switch weapons and I might even consider a CQB perk lowering that penalty on ranged weapons reasonable.

But why would you get that super penalty against someome who can't dodge(another "shooter" who got close), or, in other words: why super martial artist would get same % as clumsy fatass?
It is a game after all, not IRL, so i think player should be rewarded for his skill choices in a sensible manner.

 

[Van-d-all]

I think melee perk to 100% dodge first bullet shot from within 2-3 tiles would be perfect fit.

Perk sounds like a band aid, and what I mean is an across the board mechanic that makes all ranged weapon users want to maintain distance while making HtH actually viable in specific situations. Pair it with AP cost to switch weapons and I might even consider a CQB perk lowering that penalty on ranged weapons reasonable.

But why would you get that super penalty against someome who can't dodge(another "shooter" who got close), or, in other words: why super martial artist would get same % as clumsy fatass?
It is a game after all, not IRL, so i think player should be rewarded for his skill choices in a sensible manner.

Because of practical implementation. General mechanic applies to all NPCs automatically, while perks would only apply to the player, and maybe some few NPCs that the devs would edit, so effectively the first makes an actual difference to combat system, while the other one doesn't. I find it arguably essential for combat mechanics in a post apo game to treat PCs equally to NPCs because it makes defeating them a lot more enjoyable than squashing 10:1 shit mobs in a (power) fantasy.

 

[krilcebre]

If so, why would you even have a melee skill and perk tree? You could just as well remove those, along with pistols and also shields,since they aren't useful later in the game anyway, meaning you pretty much lost all those points you hsve been investing for 10-15 levels, or even more. This is a game, not a real life simulator. A grenade in the face should be more powerful than a bullet, but it doesn't work that way in the game. Why? Because balance. So then why not balance everything and make more viable builds instead of having to finish a game using the same old ar or rifle build every time. Nobody sane would invest points into skills and perks that are for dire need only, meaning you don't need them anyway.

Because it gives build possibilities, and playing with various builds is largely what makes cRPG replayability fun. All the while keeping the melee weapons situational and befitting the dog eat dog economy of post apocalyptic survival game.

How the fuck does less viable options give more build possibilities? Discussion here is that real life shouldnt interfere with gameplay mechanics balance because it streamlines the players into using only one or two weapon types, because they are the only viable options, meaning there is no reason to spec for worse options because you'll quit halfway through when you realize you are getting raped by a single enemy, not to mention they usually come in large groups. You just confimed my point othat rpgs should give players more options to play and finish a game, not less, especially since all the mentioned weapon types are already in the game, so its just a matter of bringing underpowered ahit up to a playable level in some way.

 

[panda]

while perks would only apply to the player

Ehm, what? Why would game generate a lvl 10 rifleman NPC without proper amount of "shooting" perks?

Though that is not what i was curious about in initial question, really. Just was interested about details of your global penalty idea. Like, how it suppose to work for different combat roles, e.g. "clumsy fatass" vs martial artist.

 

[Van-d-all]

You just confimed my point othat rpgs should give players more options to play and finish a game, not less

LOL of course they should. They just shouldn't make them in a shitty fantasy way where characters can bite bullets for the sake of viability because it completely kills the setting. If I wanted to play a fucking He-Man I'd go for AD&D.

Ehm, what? Why would game generate a lvl 10 rifleman NPC without proper amount of "shooting" perks?

Already answered, read the whole sentence maybe?

and maybe some few NPCs that the devs would edit

Handicrafted or generated, it still requires additional implementation in NPC code.

Though that is not what i was curious about in initial question, really. Just was interested about details of your global penalty idea. Like, how it suppose to work for different combat roles, e.g. "clumsy fatass" vs martial artist.

Base stats like Dex and Melee skill already cover that. Besides its pure theorycrafting, I doubt the combat system is getting anything beyond a Perk facelift.

 

[panda]

Ehm, what? Why would game generate a lvl 10 rifleman NPC without proper amount of "shooting" perks?

Already answered

Uhm, no. You just stated that "perks would only apply to the player". Unless your post implies that you 100% know that auto-generated NPCs don't have perks it has no answer.

 

[krilcebre]

You literally have demon possession, talking goldfish, hp stealing enemy and magical statue, instant healing and so on, but it's hard to swallow a melee weilding character armored to the teeth for the sake of realism?

 

[Van-d-all]

You literally have demon possession, talking goldfish, hp stealing enemy and magical statue, instant healing and so on, but it's hard to swallow a melee weilding character armored to the teeth for the sake of realism?

Are you really comparing once per game easter egg trivia to meat and bones of a combat system that makes around half of the gameplay? Instant healing, all right, but I just don't have a better alternative for it, while I see some for melee combat.

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

If melee is meant to be a backup, then make it a backup.

You are getting things backwards. It is a backup because it was poorly designed. It was never intended to be a secondary skill, as the ability tree suggests.

 

[krilcebre]

If melee is meant to be a backup, then make it a backup.

You are getting things backwards. It is a backup because it was poorly designed. It was never intended to be a secondary skill, as the ability tree suggests.

Exactly, fucking thank you! (Can't rate posts yet) :D

 

[Vrab]

If melee is meant to be a backup, then make it a backup.

You are getting things backwards. It is a backup because it was poorly designed. It was never intended to be a secondary skill, as the ability tree suggests.

Actually Atomboy said earlier it was supposed to be used as a backup, cba finding the post. Ofc this doesn't make sense given how massive melee side of the ability tree is.

Point is: either it is a backup, and doesn't cover a quarter of the possible character development potential or it is a valid if somewhat suboptimal way of fighting (in which case it still shouldn't cover a quarter of the tree). As it is now, it's an underperforming 5th wheel that you can heavily invest into in order to make it a slightly less underperforming 5th wheel. I'd prefer it to be viable as a main focus, but either way as it is now it's neither here nor there.

 

[RK47]

 

[TheImplodingVoice]

ChAdTOM

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Actually Atomboy said earlier it was supposed to be used as a backup.

And you believed in him. He also said that he completed the game with a meele build. Was meele a backup in Fallout? No? Didn't think so.

 

[Risewild]

Are you really comparing once per game easter egg trivia to meat and bones of a combat system that makes around half of the gameplay? Instant healing, all right, but I just don't have a better alternative for it, while I see some for melee combat.

Classic Fallout games would really improve if melee/unarmed would be made into secondary fighting skills no one would invest into.

If an RPG offers entire ability trees for fighting skills, then it needs to be at least feasible to beat the game using a character focused on that fighting skill. A player should be rewarded for whatever type of fighting his character does.

No matter what the devs will make, even if they "balance" it, melee and unarmed will always be less OP than shooting burst weapons.

First, a melee character has to get close to the enemy to be able to deal damage, while a ranged character can start dealing damage from a distance.
Second, a melee character will have to move a lot, even if it kills one enemy, there are usually more than one, so it has to lose AP to get close to the next enemy.
Third, a melee character will never be able to deal as much damage for the same AP than ranged weapons.
Fourth, there are way less weapon options for unarmed and melee. Melee seems to have heavy and light weapons. Heavy costs more AP to use and light are usually only knives. I have no idea how many weapons there are for unarmed, but I bet there are only a few.
Fifth, if one wants to focus on close quarters combat, it has to invest points in two skills (unarmed and melee). Both are quite weak.

So unless they allow something like Rocket Punches, I don't think melee/unarmed will ever be as successful as burst everything around. So your fears of "it loses realism" are unfounded... Also there are plenty of abilities in the trees that really destroy any modicum of realism in this game...

Depicted, Rocket Punch for reference:

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

Risewild, surely you understand we are talking about cRPGs, right? Those games where people have inventories with the size of warehouses and can survive open shooting with healh recovery items. It's all made up. What we need for a viable meedle build is the same abstractions we already use elsewhere. Rocket science it ain't.

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Basically what happened there was the result of removing level scaling. It means that every level has a chance to meet such a crew especially if he walks in a certain direction, like far east from Otradnoye or south east, or north. But on levels 1-3 they should have a pretty low encounter %. Like 5%-10%! But on the bright side you might encounter a caravan with end-game goods with the same %!

Sure, level-scaling is bad but I expected some locational scaling to at least SOME degree. Does hitting F5 every three travel-dots equal fun? Because I'll be fucked if the 7 or more dudes coming at me every time I fail a speech check to avoid combat is doable. I keep thinking "At some point I'll encounter only 3 or 4 dudes, right?" Nope.

EDIT: Sidenote, I feel like Underrail is the only cRPG that ever solved the question "How do you make melee/unarmed viable?"

 

[Deleted Member 22431]

I feel like Underrail is the only cRPG that ever solved the question "How do you make melee/unarmed viable?"

 

[Atomboy]

Actually Atomboy said earlier it was supposed to be used as a backup.

And you believed in him. He also said that he completed the game with a meele build. Was meele a backup in Fallout? No? Didn't think so.

Two times as of today! But I never solo won the game with it. That's why I called it a backup skill. In fights, you make use of your ally rifles and run around cutting people down with your dog and the chainsaw, backing them up (and trying not to get shot by them). The closest thing to solo melee walkthrough I got was pistols\melee. But I don't mean backup like "worse than the rest". It shouldn't be. Hence my two ideas of making two early abilities in the tree better by adding shield DT and bonus melee damage when under 50% health. It's too late for things like "get rid of the tree" or "make less skills" or "make skills buyable without tree structure". We're stuck with this thing and we need to make it a bit better to allow solo melee \ fist runs.

 

[Atomboy]

Basically what happened there was the result of removing level scaling. It means that every level has a chance to meet such a crew especially if he walks in a certain direction, like far east from Otradnoye or south east, or north. But on levels 1-3 they should have a pretty low encounter %. Like 5%-10%! But on the bright side you might encounter a caravan with end-game goods with the same %!

Sure, level-scaling is bad but I expected some locational scaling to at least SOME degree. Does hitting F5 every three travel-dots equal fun? Because I'll be fucked if the 7 or more dudes coming at me every time I fail a speech check to avoid combat is doable. I keep thinking "At some point I'll encounter only 3 or 4 dudes, right?" Nope.

EDIT: Sidenote, I feel like Underrail is the only cRPG that ever solved the question "How do you make melee/unarmed viable?"

Where exactly are you walking, though? The big region between KRZ, Otradnoye and the Factory has like 5% of meeting stronger foes on early levels. It should be like a one in a game event for a low level character. Now if you were in the castle area, or the bandit outpost area, that'd be explainable.

 

[krilcebre]

I still think all shields should be 100% absorption with block chance being the stat that would make them differ from each other. I don't know how your source code looks like, so I have no clue if it's even possible, but it should be tied with some attribute too like I mentioned earlier, and increased block chance when adjusted to npc. That 50% more damage I don't like, since if you are below 50% and you attack, you will pretty much be dead next turn unless you have stimulants equipped. If you don't and you heal from inventory, you just nullified the bonus trait.