Arcanum setting makes no sense

[Cryomancer]

Ok, what about gene engineering? Would magic fail to be used against a person with redacted genome? Such procedures require a ton of science.

My guess in Arcanum, the machine to gene edit would be affected by magic but after the gene is edited, that person can use magic with no problem. Just speculation from my part.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Yeah and this doesn't explain why more tech in an environment makes magic less effective. Litterally the point of one of the first quests in Shrouded Hills, a wizard wants you to blow up the town steam engine cause his transmutation magic doesn't work anymore.

Exactly! Steam engines don’t produce any radiation beyond visible light and infrared heat. What is interfering with the magic?

Human cellular processes are vastly more complex, much less organs, but magic doesn’t interfere with that. If magic hates complexity, then there shouldn’t be life at all.

Magic affects UNNATURAL complex stuff. Otherwise, would be impossible to summon a wolf for eg.

You’re invoking the Appeal to nature fallacy. There’s no way to determine that something is artificial or natural without an intelligent observer. A tree and a chair are made of the same chemicals. There’s no chemical for “artificial” versus “natural.”

If aliens visited Earth millions of years in the future, then they’d probably think fossilized plastic was a resin producing by humans from our bodies. Because all the infrastructure was dust by then, they’d have no way to know otherwise.

Furthermore, that doesn’t explain why, to use one example from an in-game quest, steam engines interfere with transmutation magic. How does that make sense?

As I’ve said before, an easy way to explain all this would be to replace fossil fuels and gunpowder with “ether fuel” (or whatever) that produces antimagic interference when burned for energy and vice versa.

EDIT: the “science” in Arcanum is already mad science anyway that does physically impossible stuff, so ether fuel isn’t a stretch.

 

[ShiningSoldier]

All honey is unnatural, because it doesn't appear by itself in nature - it's made by bees. In this context there's no difference between honey made by bees and iPhones made by Chinese workers.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

All honey is unnatural, because it doesn't appear by itself in nature - it's made by bees.

It's bee vomit, my man.

 

[ShiningSoldier]

All honey is unnatural, because it doesn't appear by itself in nature - it's made by bees.

It's bee vomit, my man.

Only to some degree. A bee vomits nectar to a beeswax cell, then all the bees around fan their wings, and that leads to the evaporation of a water. This process transforms nectar into a honey.
Looks pretty technological for me.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I always thought that it does make a kind of sense that magic wanes as tech waxes, if magic is conceived as a "field" effect that depends on belief, and if people start having more faith and trust in tech, the "field" effect wanes, or people are less able to make contact with it.

For a setting that deals with that better (albeit in a more fantastical way), there's always White Wolf's Mage with the notions of consensus and paradox. Difference being that this sort of worldbuilding also reduces tech to just another form of magic rather than it being a materially grounded counterpart to it.

 

[jackofshadows]

By the way it's implied that the whole Kerghan's plan rely on the tech spread in order to weaken the wards. Not to just banish the dwarves.

 

[Average Manatee]

Offensive teleportation is overpowered, so the game designers don’t allow it to be used.

There are games which you can use offensive teleportation. Eg :

Exile one target enemy from this existence. An enemy succeeding on a Will save vs DC(15 + Charisma Modifier + Necromancy bonuses) is instead paralyzed and helpless with fear for 6 seconds. https://ddowiki.com/page/Hurl_through_Hell

In 5e, such ability just deals 10d10 physic damage and removes the enemy temporarily.

But if you think a bit, offensive teleporation and disintegration would be by far the best spells for assassination. Would not only kill the target but also get rid of the corpse. Better than spells like Finger of Death and extremely better than flashy spells like fireball. Teleportation also has other huge advantage. If someone is using divination to detect spells being cast, it can reduce suspicion. And after the target dies, well, accidents from teleportation aren't uncommon.

Doesn't even have to be a particularly strong teleportation spell. "teleport 50 feet directly down" as a spell is probably way easier to cast than general infinite range teleportation.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I always thought that it does make a kind of sense that magic wanes as tech waxes, if magic is conceived as a "field" effect that depends on belief, and if people start having more faith and trust in tech, the "field" effect wanes, or people are less able to make contact with it.

For a setting that deals with that better (albeit in a more fantastical way), there's always White Wolf's Mage with the notions of consensus and paradox. Difference being that this sort of worldbuilding also reduces tech to just another form of magic rather than it being a materially grounded counterpart to it.

Consensus reality doesn’t actually make sense, tho. If people stop believing in raccoons, would they vanish? Why doesn’t racism reduce slaves to animal intelligence? There’s way too many holes for consensus reality to work without tons of caveats that make it no longer consensus reality.

 

[skaraher]

Arcanum "Tech vs Magic" works because it's thematically relevant and makes for a good story. Magic as a relic of a bygone age of wonders being slowly replaced by rational thought, mundane tech, gnome conspiracies etc. I don't think the setting was written to be scrutinized that much, it works to tell the story the game wanted to tell.

Or maybe it was one of the first signs of the rampant Sawyerism and cult of balance that would overtake the genre.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I mean, I think the consensus magic explanation could work if we interpret it as a conflict between rationality and emotion… oh wait, no, that doesn’t make sense because wizards in this setting operate like scientists. This isn’t chaos magic or emotion-based magic or anything like that, magic in Arcanum has schools and rules and such.

(This is another reason why I think consensus is a bunk explanation. Why would magic have consistent rules if you just made it up yourself? Having consistent rules that are studied is the entire basis of science!)

Magic as a relic of a bygone age of wonders being slowly replaced by rational thought,

If magic in Arcanum follows consistent rules and is taught in schools, then by definition it is rational.

 

[spectre]

A whole lot of you haven't read the Arcanum manual, and it shows. There you go, treat yourself.
https://www.docdroid.net/QEqROKf/manual-pdf

Sure, it's full of holes when if you want to have a sperg-out, but it was never intended to be full-proofed against modern understanding of science;
rather, it's about achieving a stylistic effect - the Victorian era, its struggles and mannerisms (including talking authoritatively out of your own arse about shit of which you only have a vague understanding).

The dichotomy was never about belief in anything, so we can cut this one short. It was between natural and supernatural "forces", which apparently can wax and wane, as well as exert an influence over an area and individuals within
(living near a powerful tech item, in this case a steam engine could reportedly drive individuals mad). It can be slightly counter-intuitive to grasp, because magick is not considered a natural force here,
and the operation of tech items is based on applying natural principles. Magick tweak, suspend or outright break natural laws, which makes complex mechanisms impossible to operate.
Why does the reverse happen? *Shrug* forces and thingamajigs, I reckon. Or perhaps, the more rules you need to break, the harder it gets. I agree it only makes sense if you squint really hard,
but that's what the game bases its main conflict and I'm fine suspending disbelief here.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

I mean, I think the consensus magic explanation could work if we interpret it as a conflict between rationality and emotion… oh wait, no, that doesn’t make sense because wizards in this setting operate like scientists. This isn’t chaos magic or emotion-based magic or anything like that, magic in Arcanum has schools and rules and such.

(This is another reason why I think consensus is a bunk explanation. Why would magic have consistent rules if you just made it up yourself? Having consistent rules that are studied is the entire basis of science!)

I didn't say that you should interpret Arcanum as if it fits WW's setting, only that WW's setting is pretty good for the sort of tech vs magic worldbuilding that it is going for. Although just like with Arcanum, it becomes kinda iffy if you try to analyze it empirically as if it were the real world (mainly in terms of where real tech ends and consensus-based ''''tech'''' begins).

And in regards to it having consistent rules despite it being made up, you're missing the point. Consensus exists at a societal level, not an individual one. Mages know that magic is bullshit (unlike sorcerers who don't, but can derive magic from subscribing to the same consensus), but that bullshit appearing mundane to those around them is what allows them to bend reality to their will and not have it backfire on them. And the more rules it has that non-mages take for granted, the better for the mage's craft since it helps him to avoid inquiring paradox by providing a clearer framework of the sort of reality-bending stuff that he can do without contradicting the consensus (hence the more 'legalistic' that the latter is, the better for the mage operating within it).

 

[skaraher]

One of the first tech items you can learn to make is the Balanced Sword, and yes, high magic characters do get a higher critical failure chance while using it.

It was already debated and pointed out as nonsensical on terra-arcanum in 2002.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

One of the first tech items you can learn to make is the Balanced Sword, and yes, high magic characters do get a higher critical failure chance while using it.

It was already debated and pointed as nonsensical on terra-arcanum in 2002.

A balanced sword mutually repels magick? I have no words.

 

[Ryan muller]

A whole lot of you haven't read the Arcanum manual, and it shows. There you go, treat yourself.
https://www.docdroid.net/QEqROKf/manual-pdf

Sure, it's full of holes when if you want to have a sperg-out, but it was never intended to be full-proofed against modern understanding of science;
rather, it's about achieving a stylistic effect - the Victorian era, its struggles and mannerisms (including talking authoritatively out of your own arse about shit of which you only have a vague understanding).

The dichotomy was never about belief in anything, so we can cut this one short. It was between natural and supernatural "forces", which apparently can wax and wane, as well as exert an influence over an area and individuals within
(living near a powerful tech item, in this case a steam engine could reportedly drive individuals mad). It can be slightly counter-intuitive to grasp, because magick is not considered a natural force here,
and the operation of tech items is based on applying natural principles. Magick tweak, suspend or outright break natural laws, which makes complex mechanisms impossible to operate.
Why does the reverse happen? *Shrug* forces and thingamajigs, I reckon. Or perhaps, the more rules you need to break, the harder it gets. I agree it only makes sense if you squint really hard,
but that's what the game bases its main conflict and I'm fine suspending disbelief here.

I have and its the only reason why in my OG post i quoted Tech as natural and Magick as Supernatural. Some in-game books such as Soot by the Gods had also used this terminology consistently.

I forgot to even answer to that part of Russia is over. The end. 's response, but if this is supposed to be an earth-centric perspective of such things, then its pretty much how the game sells the concept as.

 

[spectre]

How does magic oppose herbology but not plants in general?

My understanding is that herbology is based on naturally occurring properties of plants which accelerate natural healing processes in the body.
Magical healing will use supernatural processes. Rituals, magical lights, chanting, laying on hands, homeopathy, four humors theory, phlogiston... what have you, but the game's logic makes them actually work.
Consequently, there's a lot of nuance that could possibly be shown in the application and result of either approach, but...
in the actual game game the end result will be essentially the same, HP gets restored - bollocks, but that's just standard game mechanics not having sufficient depth to deliver what's promised in the lore.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

If a balanced sword interferes with magic, then logically that should mean wheels and windows do too. My brain is hurting trying to make sense of this

EDIT: checking the manual… magick interferes with inclines and blocks. When Troika said it interferes with physics, they weren’t kidding. How the hell can anybody even use magick then?

 

[Cryomancer]

Is interesting how you talk too much about magick VS tech and too little about the world building. Lets talk about gnome question. hu3hu3hu3 just kidding

 

[spectre]

If a balanced sword interferes with magic, then logically that should mean wheels and windows do too. My brain is hurting trying to make sense of this
EDIT: checking the manual… magick interferes with inclines and blocks. When Troika said it interferes with physics, they weren’t kidding. How the hell can anybody even use magick then?

That's basically why wizards travel in a cabin at the ass end of the train, and if you're sufficiently powerful, they won't even let you board.
If you do magick, screws get randomly unscrewed, static electricity builds up, all kinds of random shit, but it still depends on how powerful is the magick is
(and how strong is the person's magical alignment), simple spells don't interfere that much and powerful mages fuck shit up just by standing there.
Mechanically speaking, there is a point of in which you get some effect from tech items and some effect from magic gear at the same time.

They dropped the ball with the balanced sword. Even the description reads somewhat like a magical item, Sword of Balance. That's maybe a nod to Clarke going off the rails?
Still, balancing is just workmanship and mass distribution, so how does that get fucked up by supernatural forces? Do they interfere with the alloy composition?
The description specifically mentions an advanced type of ore being used, but perhaps the balanced hilt - the other component - is where it's at?
Incredulous, as it's a commonly found blacksmith item, but perhaps there's a more advanced technical solution hidden in there -
like a groove filled with lead to dynamically shift the balance, perhaps some advanced solution to dampen vibrations... yeah, all head-canon and me grasping at straws.
Bottom line, the writers at Troika obviously lacked a bit of tech background to to make a lot of this work.

Whelp... the game's forte is in the multiple approaches (most of the time) to quests and the game-world's reactivity (again, most of the time).
We could forgive an rpg a lot back then if the setting was novel (and hey, it wasn't D&D).

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Steampunk has always been style over substance. Arcanum uses it to illustrate romantic themes of the late Victorian era. This sperg-out has gotten boring. It's mostly sophistry. The manual does a pretty good job of characterizing the conflict without committing to strict terms.

Consider this excerpt from pages 4-5.

"The angle of the Plane has not changed, nor has the nature of the block…but the Magickal Artifacte slightly alters the Coefficient of Friction in its immediate proximity. This alteration is unstable and unpredictable, causing the Block to slide in a variable manner. It is this same unpredictability and instability in all Magickal Effects which makes compensation for these Effects on a machine impossible. Even a small change in the Coefficient of Friction can and will cause gears to grind, belts to break, and cogs to catch and stick—with disastrous consequences!"

The mind of the magic user is able to project their will onto natural forces, most likely on the quantum level which then resonates up to the classical level. This disturbs the basis on which machines and other technologies are designed, so they behave haphazardly. The more sophisticated the tech, the greater the number of forces that can disturb its fundamentals. This is also why sophisticated technology has a chance to fail against magic users. Visa versa, the inherent changes to consciousness a magic user must develop in order to perform magic cause them to run afoul when utilizing sophisticated technology. That resistance goes both ways suggests that ultimately both parties are opposite sides of the same coin. Their wills and consciousness are simply configured differently to a mutual exclusion. The more of one side you can see, the less of the other side becomes visible without reconciliation. Mages manipulate through inward forces and energy, and the technologist through outward forces and sources.

I think gene editing could work, but would best be done before an affinity is cultivated and best by whatever affinity is held. Otherwise you need overwhelming counter-balance to achieve the same effect. Also, since affinity seems to be more one of consciousness than genetic disposition, anybody whose genes have been modified would still have to undo their acquired affinity. This would probably require radical and permanent memory loss to the level of an infant.

What's less dealt with in the manual is why advanced technological processes interfere with magic use. My guess is that the work performed by them increases entropy in the locality, which proverbially muddies the quantum waters a magic user wades in. It's like trying to blow a feather around a room while the ceiling fan is turned on high.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

It’s still nonsense. If the magic disrupts the fundamental forces of gravity and electromagnetism, then it shouldn’t be possible for mages to even use magic in the first place because they themselves rely on those forces to exist in the first place. If magic causes simple mechanical devices to seize up and explode by simple proximity, if it causes solid non-mechanical objects like swords to behave erratically, then it should cause human beings to violently explode with the force of atom bombs because our cellular processes are more complex than mechanical watches.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

It’s still nonsense. If the magic disrupts the fundamental forces of gravity and electromagnetism, then it shouldn’t be possible for mages to even use magic in the first place because they themselves rely on those forces to exist in the first place. If magic causes simple mechanical devices to seize up and explode by simple proximity, if it causes solid non-mechanical objects like swords to behave erratically, then it should cause human beings to violently explode with the force of atom bombs because our cellular processes are more complex than mechanical watches.

Maybe if all of these forces are classical. Also, the mechanisms of cellular life are far more robust than any machine made by man on several orders of magnitude. Gravity is extremely weak comparatively to other phenomena, but it still influences planets without crushing us. Light can be observed as both a wave and a particle simultaneously. Time is linear, but experienced relatively to the frame of reference. A human brain contains unfathomable amounts of connections compared to a conventional supercomputer, but uses a miniscule amount of electricity. Birds use quantum effects in their eyes to sense the earth's electromagnetic fields but aren't devastated by electromagnets. The world is a wondrously complicated thing with forces far beyond our understanding. Our assumptions may not apply. Play the game and enjoy the ride. It's a good one.

 

[Silverfish]

Play the game and enjoy the ride.

Just make a character with 1 intelligence so you don't have to dwell on the internal consistency of the setting.

 

[Basshead]

I always thought that it does make a kind of sense that magic wanes as tech waxes, if magic is conceived as a "field" effect that depends on belief, and if people start having more faith and trust in tech, the "field" effect wanes, or people are less able to make contact with it.

For a setting that deals with that better (albeit in a more fantastical way), there's always White Wolf's Mage with the notions of consensus and paradox. Difference being that this sort of worldbuilding also reduces tech to just another form of magic rather than it being a materially grounded counterpart to it.

Consensus reality doesn’t actually make sense, tho. If people stop believing in raccoons, would they vanish? Why doesn’t racism reduce slaves to animal intelligence? There’s way too many holes for consensus reality to work without tons of caveats that make it no longer consensus reality.

Maybe there’s just not enough consensus in consensus reality for it to fully come to be. That would explain the caveats. You just gotta believe!