Arcanum setting makes no sense

[RaggleFraggle]

I always thought that it does make a kind of sense that magic wanes as tech waxes, if magic is conceived as a "field" effect that depends on belief, and if people start having more faith and trust in tech, the "field" effect wanes, or people are less able to make contact with it.

For a setting that deals with that better (albeit in a more fantastical way), there's always White Wolf's Mage with the notions of consensus and paradox. Difference being that this sort of worldbuilding also reduces tech to just another form of magic rather than it being a materially grounded counterpart to it.

Consensus reality doesn’t actually make sense, tho. If people stop believing in raccoons, would they vanish? Why doesn’t racism reduce slaves to animal intelligence? There’s way too many holes for consensus reality to work without tons of caveats that make it no longer consensus reality.

Maybe there’s just not enough consensus in consensus reality for it to fully come to be. That would explain the caveats. You just gotta believe!

I think it would be simpler to just not have magic operate on consensus. Aside from that one obscure nerd game, I can’t name any fiction that uses that conceit. Magic doesn’t go haywire if muggles see it.

 

[Harthwain]

It’s still nonsense. If the magic disrupts the fundamental forces of gravity and electromagnetism, then it shouldn’t be possible for mages to even use magic in the first place because they themselves rely on those forces to exist in the first place. If magic causes simple mechanical devices to seize up and explode by simple proximity, if it causes solid non-mechanical objects like swords to behave erratically, then it should cause human beings to violently explode with the force of atom bombs because our cellular processes are more complex than mechanical watches.

I am curious how can you claim that "[magic] rely on those forces to exist in the first place" when in the manual Magic is directly stated to be an anomaly when compared to Technology (it's literally called the "Supernatural Force"). This is important, because contrary to what you say it doesn't follow the "Natural Law" (that Technology makes use of and what you try to base your entire argument on), it uses the "Supernatural Law" instead.

 

[Diggfinger]

ur mama's garden makes no sense

Spoiler

 

[RaggleFraggle]

It’s still nonsense. If the magic disrupts the fundamental forces of gravity and electromagnetism, then it shouldn’t be possible for mages to even use magic in the first place because they themselves rely on those forces to exist in the first place. If magic causes simple mechanical devices to seize up and explode by simple proximity, if it causes solid non-mechanical objects like swords to behave erratically, then it should cause human beings to violently explode with the force of atom bombs because our cellular processes are more complex than mechanical watches.

I am curious how can you claim that "[magic] rely on those forces to exist in the first place" when in the manual Magic is directly stated to be an anomaly when compared to Technology (it's literally called the "Supernatural Force"). This is important, because contrary to what you say it doesn't follow the "Natural Law" (that Technology makes use of and what you try to base your entire argument on), it uses the "Supernatural Law" instead.

Whatever I said before, I was mistaken because I hadn’t checked the manual. The manual depicts an experiment that shows how magic interferes with basic solid objects like blocks and inclines. Magic makes basic physics, like friction, go haywire. This is explicitly stated. So interfering with mundane swords and wheels is an extension of that.

The only inconsistency is that it doesn’t interfere with humans and, well, everything else. Rocks, trees, rivers, etc. Even though magic causes physics to go all wonky, the writing ignores how this would affect people and the world. We don’t see people tripping and sliding when magic interferes with friction, or simple carts derailing, or water flowing uphill or opposite gravity, for example.

The problem with Arcanum’s world building is that it doesn’t follow all the way through with the logical consequences of its premise that magic operates on supernatural law that causes natural law to go haywire and vice versa. I assume this is because, if it did so, the premise would be revealed as self-defeating because it would make humans unable to use magic in the first place because humans operate on natural law.

Before you tell me that humans don’t operate under natural law… There’s no indication in the game that humans don’t operate under natural law. That would be a pretty important point to note that humans and the entire world arbitrarily don’t operate under the natural law that governs friction.

So if they didn’t, if humans aren’t subject to natural friction or natural law, then does that mean there’s a third type of law system? Why? How? Does it exist specifically to prevent Supernatural Law from destroying the world and allow humans to use magic?

This doesn’t hold up to Occam’s razor. The writers screwed up when they were world building.

 

[skaraher]

And all of this still doesn't explain why tech interferes with magic too.

 

[Cryomancer]

And all of this still doesn't explain why tech interferes with magic too.

Tech depends on the application of natural laws. Magic depends on the negation of natural laws.

 

[Harthwain]

The problem with Arcanum’s world building is that it doesn’t follow all the way through with the logical consequences of its premise that magic operates on supernatural law that causes natural law to go haywire and vice versa. I assume this is because, if it did so, the premise would be revealed as self-defeating because it would make humans unable to use magic in the first place because humans operate on natural law.

That's basically it - the premise is about magic vs technology (and by technology it is really about mass industrialisation) in a fantasy setting (which is pretty self-evident by the existence of classic races) and how these two themes interact with one another. Technically you could make it work by causing magic to transform those who use too much magic (by turning them into Elves, for example), but this approach would present its own set of problems and making the premise's logic to be perfect (by applying it to humans/the world at large) was never really the point.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on the anti-reality aspect of magic. I think the manual is clear for the experiment language that it merely shifts the equilibrium for natural forces outside which those devices were designed. Polarity and friction, for example, aren't nullified they simply behave differently.

Arcanum is all about late Victorian romanticism contrast to modernism. Magic is Arcanum is more about mystical vs rational. Mystical doesn't mean something is untrue or perverse, just beyond total comprehension.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Polarity and friction, for example, aren't nullified they simply behave differently.

That would still cause problems for people. You’d be slipping and sliding around at least. Changing the polarity of your body’s water would kill you.

Arcanum is all about late Victorian romanticism contrast to modernism. Magic is Arcanum is more about mystical vs rational. Mystical doesn't mean something is untrue or perverse, just beyond total comprehension.

The magic isn’t remotely spiritual or mystical. It’s taught in magic schools and requires intelligence. It’s science.

the premise is about magic vs technology (and by technology it is really about mass industrialisation) in a fantasy setting (which is pretty self-evident by the existence of classic races) and how these two themes interact with one another.

If that’s the intent, then there are more coherent ways to justify it. The Natural Law vs Supernatural Law explanation just creates more problems than it solves.

As it stands, the conflict is an incoherent mess that feels completely arbitrary. Two different kinds of science that arbitrarily hate each other.

 

[skaraher]

And all of this still doesn't explain why tech interferes with magic too.

Tech depends on the application of natural laws. Magic depends on the negation of natural laws.

So if there is a lot of sophisticated tech engines in a place, you can't negate natural law ? Cause that's also how it works in Arcanum.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

And all of this still doesn't explain why tech interferes with magic too.

Tech depends on the application of natural laws. Magic depends on the negation of natural laws.

So if there is a lot of sophisticated tech engines in a place, you can't negate natural law ? Cause that's also how it works in Arcanum.

Right. So tech negates magic, but trees, rocks and rivers don’t, despite being governed by natural law.

 

[Skinwalker]

Tech interferes with magic because it's an application of scientific/mathematical/logical concepts, which are, in their foundation, abstract universals that do not exist in the natural world.

Technology is just as supernatural as magic, because it is the product of a supernatural entity: the human mind.

Come on, people, this is philosophy 101.

 

[skaraher]

Tech interferes with magic because it's an application of scientific/mathematical/logical concepts, which are, in their foundation, abstract universals that do not exist in the natural world.

Technology is just as supernatural as magic, because it is the product of a supernatural entity: the human mind.

Come on, people, this is philosophy 101.

In Mage from WOTD, tech is a form of magic and runs on consensus. In Arcanum none of that is really developed nor explicited.

 

[Cryomancer]

Tech interferes with magic because it's an application of scientific/mathematical/logical concepts, which are, in their foundation, abstract universals that do not exist in the natural world.

Technology is just as supernatural as magic, because it is the product of a supernatural entity: the human mind.

Come on, people, this is philosophy 101.

Thanks a lot for explaining what I'm trying to explain in a very straightforward way

So if there is a lot of sophisticated tech engines in a place, you can't negate natural law ?

Would be much more harder to enforce your willpower over nature laws in such situation. How much, IDK, the game never quantifies how much each engine makes using magic harder. Lets suppose that each complex engine enforces X unities of "law" in a Y area, unless you have a stronger magical affinity and willpower to break the X unities of "law", your magic would fizzles. Think in D&D therms, where tech comes from plane of law and magic from plane of chaos. It would make easier for you to understand.

Making a analogy with electricity, is like a lightning, excess of electrical charge, either positive or negative is sufficient amount can break down the resistance of air.

 

[dumbuglyorc]

Imagine that you are in middle of North Pole and a polar bear is charging into your direction. You by some reason can chose to use a semi automatic .338 lapua magnum rifle against him or a longbow. Which tool would you use to kill him before he gets close to you. You have 7 seconds to aim and shot to kill.

I choose the bear.

 

[Hoodoo]

it was real to me godamnit

 

[angler]

I always figured tech had some kind of anti-magic aura to it which caused the conflicts to happen but it hadn't been discovered yet - like matter and anti-matter.

Too bad Troika's logical fallacies pissed all the nerds off so they went out of business before they could make a sequel that explained everything.

 

[Damned Registrations]

I choose the bear.

The smart choice is to use the rifle on yourself. Bears eat things alive because they're unconcerned by being injured from something's death throes. And you're at the north pole anyways, you're just going to freeze to death even if you managed to get a lucky headshot.

Come on, people, this is philosophy 101

Yeah, because higher tier philosophy wouldn't allow such a retarded concept like 'human brains are magical.'

There's no qualitative difference between a steam engine and a beaver dam or even a simple bird nest. It's just iterating on using tools to make better tools.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

In Arcanum none of that is really developed nor explicited.

Right, because Arcanum doesn’t operate according to consensus. Both technology and magic operate according to consistent laws that are independently studied as sciences.

Too bad Troika's logical fallacies pissed all the nerds off so they went out of business before they could make a sequel that explained everything.

There isn’t an explanation that can make sense of it without rewriting the rules they established. Troika established that magic interferes with physics, to the point of affecting blocks and inclines. The inconsistency arises from magic not affecting people, weather, etc in the same way.

There's no qualitative difference between a steam engine and a beaver dam or even a simple bird nest. It's just iterating on using tools to make better tools.

Exactly. This is a classic appeal to nature fallacy. Science isn’t created, it’s discovered.

At this point, the best explanation I can think of would be invoking gods. In the beginning, there were three gods who created the world. The God of Nature created the heavens, the earth, plants, animals, weather, etc. Then he gave the world to his two brothers to do additional touches. The God of Magic created elves and gifted them with magic. The God of Tech created dwarves and gifted them with technology. They didn’t consult each other when developing their gifts, so magic and tech operated on contradictory rules that interfered with the other.

 

[Skinwalker]

Yeah, because higher tier philosophy wouldn't allow such a retarded concept like 'human brains are magical.'

I think you confused "higher tier philosophy" with the strawman fallacy. Also, you don't know anything about philosophy.

 

[NecroLord]

In Arcanum none of that is really developed nor explicited.

Right, because Arcanum doesn’t operate according to consensus. Both technology and magic operate according to consistent laws that are independently studied as sciences.

Too bad Troika's logical fallacies pissed all the nerds off so they went out of business before they could make a sequel that explained everything.

There isn’t an explanation that can make sense of it without rewriting the rules they established. Troika established that magic interferes with physics, to the point of affecting blocks and inclines. The inconsistency arises from magic not affecting people, weather, etc in the same way.

There's no qualitative difference between a steam engine and a beaver dam or even a simple bird nest. It's just iterating on using tools to make better tools.

Exactly. This is a classic appeal to nature fallacy. Science isn’t created, it’s discovered.

At this point, the best explanation I can think of would be invoking gods. In the beginning, there were three gods who created the world. The God of Nature created the heavens, the earth, plants, animals, weather, etc. Then he gave the world to his two brothers to do additional touches. The God of Magic created elves and gifted them with magic. The God of Tech created dwarves and gifted them with technology. They didn’t consult each other when developing their gifts, so magic and tech operated on contradictory rules that interfered with the other.

Gods and other deities and their roles and attributes are not fully explored in Arcanum.
There are their shrines and there is a book you can get in the Tarant University that explains more on the subject of the Old Gods of Arcanum.
Of course, you can make offerings at their shrines and gain their blessings, including a very powerful final blessing you can get in Vendigroth from the father of the gods - Velorien...

 

[MjKorz]

Tech = the ability to apply laws of nature in a practical way. Magic = the ability to bend laws of nature to your will. Tech stops working in the presence of individuals with high magical aptitude, because these individuals distort the laws of physics passively and subconsciously by their mere presence. Magic is based on willpower, i.e. you have to will it into existence. Magic fizzles out in the presence of individuals with high technological aptitude, because they know how the laws of nature should operate and subconsciously reinforce the correct operation of said laws through their will. That's how I headcanon the setting.

 

[NecroLord]

Tech = the ability to apply laws of nature in a practical way. Magic = the ability to bend laws of nature to your will. Tech stops working in the presence of individuals with high magical aptitude, because these individuals distort the laws of physics passively and subconsciously by their mere presence. Magic is based on willpower, i.e. you have to will it into existence. Magic fizzles out in the presence of individuals with high technological aptitude, because they know how the laws of nature should operate and subconsciously reinforce the correct operation of said laws through their will. That's how I headcanon the setting.

Exactly.
That stuff is also in the manual and general lore of the game.

 

[MjKorz]

Exactly.
That stuff is also in the manual and general lore of the game.

Nice to know. Played the game decades ago and never read the manual.

 

[NecroLord]

and never read the manual.

You should.
It is one of the better manuals in video gaming.
Also contains a banana bread recipe (more than likely included by Tim Cain in there).