Would you pledge to a new Obsidian Kickstarter?

[boobio]

Only if Anthony Davis is project leader on it. I want to see what kind of game he would make.

 

[Ismaul]

On the other end, the acting agent, the developer, has a very different desire. They want to make a lot of money. And that might very well influence how they design and market the game. Since they already have a bunch of hardcore fans captive via pledges, what's to stop them from cutting corners, or "mainstreaming" the game? Why not try and sell to the widest possible audience once you have a war chest of money from a bunch of saps backers?

The next game.

If you please the widest possible audience, then you will naturally have the largest well of saps wallets to dig into for money for the next game. Really, if your goal is money, immediately write off the Codex and any place remotely like it, because they're all so much in the minority, their anger will barely be a blip on the radar if you can please the bulk of your audience. With the additional benefit that it takes way less time to program for the main group, since they actively don't want complex things, so thus your programming costs also go down.

It's win win for your bank account.

In some ways, you're not wrong.

But let's look at Torment for a second. Everywhere it's hailed as the best written cRPG, included in the top 10 lists, and yet a lot of people/journos that consider it as such obviously haven't played it. So how come it's recognized like that?

I think the Codex and places remotely like it have a lot to do with this, and with Avellone's reputation. The masses follow the minority, as long as it knows what it's talking about, and what was a blip on the radar becomes a trend. More than 15 years later, it's common knowledge, and people who know nothing about it acknowledge it for what it is. Why? Passionate fans.

So my point is, ignore the Codex and places like it at your own peril, because if there's no passionate fans behind a game, the developper is replaceable, expandable. If you go for the masses, dilute your creative authority with the game, you have no creative voice, you're "neutral-greedy" instead of passionate, and then the game is just a product, and the player is just a customer: it's a cold relationship, which the player has no interest to maintain in the future. But if you show passion / creativity, something that gets the player in a way that goes beyond simple leisure, then you got something. Look at how Avellone's got us by the balls since Torment, to the point were the Codex is in "love" with the guy and made him a "God". There hasn't been another like Torment yet (MotB excepted), but we hope for it, yearn for it, talk about it... we keep that relationship alive.

Now, if Obsidian doesn't cultivate that relationship and those expectations, you get polls with results like these, and, most likely, they'll lose out money in the long run, unless they manage to bounce back by establishing another relationship with another group. But the truth is, we're all they have. No place other than the Codex believes in Obsidian like that. For others, it's more like Bugsidian, one in a plethora of shitty rpg devs.

tl;dr: tuluse is right.

 

[Zombra]

Would I gift money to some internet bits? Lol.

Too cool for the internet, eh? Good for you.

wait

 

[Telengard]

On the other end, the acting agent, the developer, has a very different desire. They want to make a lot of money. And that might very well influence how they design and market the game. Since they already have a bunch of hardcore fans captive via pledges, what's to stop them from cutting corners, or "mainstreaming" the game? Why not try and sell to the widest possible audience once you have a war chest of money from a bunch of saps backers?

The next game.

If you please the widest possible audience, then you will naturally have the largest well of saps wallets to dig into for money for the next game. Really, if your goal is money, immediately write off the Codex and any place remotely like it, because they're all so much in the minority, their anger will barely be a blip on the radar if you can please the bulk of your audience. With the additional benefit that it takes way less time to program for the main group, since they actively don't want complex things, so thus your programming costs also go down.

It's win win for your bank account.

In some ways, you're not wrong.

But let's look at Torment for a second. Everywhere it's hailed as the best written cRPG, included in the top 10 lists, and yet a lot of people/journos that consider it as such obviously haven't played it. So how come it's recognized like that?

I think the Codex and places remotely like it have a lot to do with this, and with Avellone's reputation. The masses follow the minority, as long as it knows what it's talking about, and what was a blip on the radar becomes a trend. More than 15 years later, it's common knowledge, and people who know nothing about it acknowledge it for what it is. Why? Passionate fans.

So my point is, ignore the Codex and places like it at your own peril, because if there's no passionate fans behind a game, the developper is replaceable, expandable. If you go for the masses, dilute your creative authority with the game, you have no creative voice, you're "neutral-greedy" instead of passionate, and then the game is just a product, and the player is just a customer: it's a cold relationship, which the player has no interest to maintain in the future. But if you show passion / creativity, something that gets the player in a way that goes beyond simple leisure, then you got something. Look at how Avellone's got us by the balls since Torment, to the point were the Codex is in "love" with the guy and made him a "God". There hasn't been another like Torment yet (MotB excepted), but we hope for it, yearn for it, talk about it... we keep that relationship alive.

Now, if Obsidian doesn't cultivate that relationship and those expectations, you get polls with results like these, and, most likely, they'll lose out money in the long run, unless they manage to bounce back by establishing another relationship with another group. But the truth is, we're all they have. No place other than the Codex believes in Obsidian like that. For others, it's more like Bugsidian, one in a plethora of shitty rpg devs.

tl;dr: tuluse is right.

The key here is in your very choice of examples. Torment was liked by critics back in the day. But the masses rejected Torment, and they still reject it to this very day. The masses know what they like, and they don't care what reviewers or places like the Codex say. In fact, "Piss of back to the Codex" is what they say if your even use one of the Codex words outside of the Codex, such as popamole. There is no peril in ignoring the Codex. Rather, people get a lot of praise for it. The Codex is a very vocal minority. But it's a vocal minority that has no followers. And since we're talking strictly money here, not glory, money is found in the opposite direction. It's the very foundation of the decline, and the decline wouldn't exist if it didn't work.

 

[tuluse]

The key here is in your very choice of examples. Torment was liked by critics back in the day. But the masses rejected Torment, and they still reject it to this very day. The masses know what they like, and they don't care what reviewers or places like the Codex say. In fact, "Piss of back to the Codex" is what they say if your even use one of the Codex words outside of the Codex, such as popamole. There is no peril in ignoring the Codex. Rather, people get a lot of praise for it. The Codex is a very vocal minority. But it's a vocal minority that has no followers. And since we're talking strictly money here, not glory, money is found in the opposite direction. It's the very foundation of the decline, and the decline wouldn't exist if it didn't work.

Yes the decline exists because of companies chasing the ever larger audience, but that doesn't mean that's a good business decision. Just as many, if not more, companies went out of business chasing that larger audience as made it work.

So it might be good business to chase them, it might not. It depends on what your company can actually do.

 

[set]

YES if real time with pause.

 

[Ismaul]

The key here is in your very choice of examples. Torment was liked by critics back in the day. But the masses rejected Torment, and they still reject it to this very day. The masses know what they like, and they don't care what reviewers or places like the Codex say. In fact, "Piss of back to the Codex" is what they say if your even use one of the Codex words outside of the Codex, such as popamole. There is no peril in ignoring the Codex. Rather, people get a lot of praise for it. The Codex is a very vocal minority. But it's a vocal minority that has no followers. And since we're talking strictly money here, not glory, money is found in the opposite direction. It's the very foundation of the decline, and the decline wouldn't exist if it didn't work.

Good points. Torment was indeed well received by critics back in the day, which is how I learned about it. But game journos from 2 decades ago were not at all like the ones we got today; some knew what they were talking about, they were fans, they knew how to write and criticize. The point I brought up was that, even though those 2 decades old journos are no longer top dogs today and most likely doing something else, current journos still put Torment on their top lists, even if their obvious tastes contradict that choice. Why would that be? I posit that the longevity of Torment's and Avellone's reputations has a lot to do with fans, notably us.

Also, the fact that "the masses" would say "piss off to the Codex" when specific Codex-connoted words are used is a testament to the reputation of this prestigious magazine. We are recognized on the basis of our vocabulary! That means "the masses", or representatives of the masses, who dislike the Codex by your account, know the Codex lingo. It means the Codex is so prestigious even people who want nothing to do with it can't help but know about it. "Market penetration", they call it when they want to sell you shit. Even worse/better, other forums have policies against us. People are praised when they go against us, like you said. That is how big the Codex is.

The Codex is not ignored. It drives the discussion. So don't discount the fans.

 

[Telengard]

If you please the widest possible audience, then you will naturally have the largest well of saps wallets to dig into for money for the next game. Really, if your goal is money, immediately write off the Codex and any place remotely like it, because they're all so much in the minority, their anger will barely be a blip on the radar if you can please the bulk of your audience. With the additional benefit that it takes way less time to program for the main group, since they actively don't want complex things, so thus your programming costs also go down.

It's win win for your bank account.

In a very shallow view of business yes. Appealing the largest possible audience and still making something resembling an RPG means going to head-to-head with AAA juggernauts Bethesda and Bioware.

Making more niche products means being able to cut really expensive things the target audience of the above companies expects (full 3d environments, full voice acting, etc), and appealing to things the niche wants.

It's like Fargo said, he wants to be the HBO/Showtime of video games, not the CBS. Obsidian kind wants to be both. Regardless, the best business sense is not to always go for the largest audience.

Mr. Murrow didn't even mention going after the largest possible audience, just a larger one than you have. Nor did he say it was a good idea, just one that someone could attempt since there is nothing barring a Kickstarter game from doing it. The old flipping audience trick is a risk, true, but if you please the new, larger audience, then you get more money for your next pitch coming from them than you ever could from the old.

But even beyond that, even just looking at a concrete example of the audience they could have right now. The IE games are the domain of fans of old Bioware (going up through Dragon Age) and Black Isle, and fans of old Bioware outnumber fans of Black Isle by millions. So, if you got money from both groups, you'll never please them both. That would be impossible. But if you piss of the larger group, the amount of hate you receive will sink you. While if you piss off the minority, you will live on suffering some minority blows, but having overall positive reviews and acclaim, and thus be in good position to pitch again.

 

[tuluse]

Mr. Murrow didn't even mention going after the largest possible audience, just a larger one than you have. Nor did he say it was a good idea, just one that someone could attempt since there is nothing barring a Kickstarter game from doing it. The old flipping audience trick is a risk, true, but if you please the new, larger audience, then you get more money for your next pitch coming from them than you ever could from the old.

That's not necessarily true. The new audience might be bigger and bring in more revenue total, but if they are generally satisfied with current offerings, that doesn't mean they'll bring in kickstarter money. Of course, Obsidian might not *need* to do any more kickstarters if they reach a sufficiently large audience.

I won't say it's not a concern, but I honestly don't think PoE shows any attempt to intentionally leave the codex in the dust. I think most if not all problems with the game are do to incompetence or lack of resources.

But even beyond that, even just looking at a concrete example of the audience they could have right now. The IE games are the domain of fans of old Bioware (going up through Dragon Age) and Black Isle, and fans of old Bioware outnumber fans of Black Isle by millions. So, if you got money from both groups, you'll never please them both. That would be impossible. But if you piss of the larger group, the amount of hate you receive will sink you. While if you piss off the minority, you will live on suffering some minority blows, but having overall positive reviews and acclaim, and thus be in good position to pitch again.

I think it's possible to please both groups actually. In fact if you look what Harebrained Schemes has done with Shadowrun, it seems like they are pleasing both groups.

However, which group do you actually want Obsidian targeting? Keeping in mind of the all the late 90s early 00s isometric RPGs, PST was by far the most story and character oriented and BG2 was the most tactically challenging.

 

[Owlish]

I would if It's a Tim Cain project, and Sawyer is not involved in any way whatsoever, but it would depend on the setting.

 

[theSavant]

let the blobber come: "Pillars of Wizardry"
i pledge, i swear

 

[Lord Carlos Wafflebum]

Sawyer gets entirely too much hate. He designed the setting, and used his strong background in history to shape the vision and setting for the world. The plot the game follows is rough, but from my understanding that was Fenstermaker (sp?). Some of the stories and subplots were interesting and there were several side stories that were close to being awesome.

The main plot was even close-ish to being good. For me I struggled to really feel engaged in the main plot, and it all really fell apart in the end there. I felt engaged in all of BG2, from tracking Iren down because he had the gall to torture ME and my buddies. I also wanted to thank him for torturing Jaheira and literally torturing Khalid to death. Seriously, fuck those two.

Even tho I didn't even care enough about these companions to hate them- not Sawyer's fault. He created an awesome world and his vision was squandered.

The combat is bad tho. I rarely, if ever, enjoyed it. I probably would have thought it was ok if it were turn based.

So, given a different or second head writer and a turn-based system, I would happily throw more money at Obsidian.

 

[Athelas]

I felt engaged in all of BG2, from tracking Iren down because he had the gall to torture ME and my buddies. I also wanted to thank him for torturing Jaheira and literally torturing Khalid to death. Seriously, fuck those two.

 

[Orma]

Only if Sawyer has more control this time

Spoiler

 

[Nomad_Blizz]

I haven't donated to their PoE kicstarter, but I'll give them $20 if they use turn-based combat resembling Divinity:OS, Shadowrun, or Xcom.

 

[jagged-jimmy]

If they come up with an original setting and let Tim do the turn-based combat - yeah. PoE 2... not so much.

 

[Lord Carlos Wafflebum]

I'd back PoE 2 if Tim were designing the turn based combat for it

 

[Rake]

Propably not, and the reason is what Infinitron said. Despite the semi-trollish nature of his post he is spot on. The reasons i liked Obsidian games in the first place are absent in their recent games, while i find the direction they seem to be going (New Vegas and PoE, i don't even consider South Park and various MMOs Obsidian games in the first place) bland and uninteresting. Not realy bad per se, but not something i would care about or lose any sleep if they disapeared.

I always considered myself an Obsidian fanboy, but PoE realy left me in doubts. And not only because of Sawyer. I dislike the man's games and i believe his design vision is incompatible with what i enjoy in video games, but the rest of their team is at fault as well.
With Festenmaker's failure as a Creative Lead and the mediocre companions PoE had (seriously, if Obsidian writers need a month to write a companion like Pallegina,Eder,Sagani,Cana Rua or Aloth, i was too harsh on Bioware all these years), plus Ziets departure i'm left in doubt with Obsidian as a whole.
What do they have? Avellone? Can i realy say i like them if they have only one person in the whole company that can make the games i like and his involvement in their games seem to be diminishing by the year?
Firing Ziets and Saunders instead of some other people turned to be a mistake as far i am conserned.

I won't write them out just yet, they have earned that much, and i will wait for their second kickstarter and propably PoE 2 as well. But i don't think i will donate to a kickstarter unless it hits all the right spots for me without room for interpretation

Spoiler

PoE also sounded like my dream game come true (Baldur's Gate (2 in any sane person's mind) with Planescape Torment's characters and writing!!! and look how it turned out

If their next games leave me with the same taste FNV and PoE did, i will put Obsidian in "might play when it hits the bargain bin if the mood strikes me" category (in the place Bioware vacated when the moved in the "won't bother to pirate" neighborhood)

 

[DragoFireheart]

No.

 

[Kz3r0]

I see that many people are under the impression that Obsidian could use Kickstarter for a new IP.
I think that is very unlikely considering their conserrvative approach, if they will hit Kickstarter again will be for PoE 2 and not something else.

 

[tuluse]

I see that many people are under the impression that Obsidian could use Kickstarter for a new IP.
I think that is very unlikely considering their conserrvative approach, if they will hit Kickstarter again will be for PoE 2 and not something else.

Urqhart previously said they wouldn't do this. They wanted to fund sequels through profit and use ks to launch new things.

Of course, plans change.

 

[Fry]

I'd back PoE 2 if Tim were designing the turn based combat for it

There's not a chance in hell PoE 2 will be turn-based, so give up on that dream. If they go TB it will be with new IP.

 

[Lord Carlos Wafflebum]

I'd back PoE 2 if Tim were designing the turn based combat for it

There's not a chance in hell PoE 2 will be turn-based, so give up on that dream. If they go TB it will be with new IP.

I'll hold onto the dream until it is brutally crushed when they turn PoE into a FPS with vats.

 

[Athelas]

I see that many people are under the impression that Obsidian could use Kickstarter for a new IP.
I think that is very unlikely considering their conserrvative approach, if they will hit Kickstarter again will be for PoE 2 and not something else.

Using Kickstarter to launch as many new IP's as possible would be the more profitable approach, in the long run. Of course, Fergie gonna ferg.

 

[Zombra]

Something to bear in mind when talking about new IPs ... Eternity is a new IP. Honestly I don't hate the setting, but it's not exactly dazzling. Maybe they felt they couldn't make something very original because they sold it as an IE game, or maybe this is the most original setting they could come up with. Either way, the announcement of another new IP wouldn't cause a disturbance in the fabric of my pants. I guess what I am really looking for is something that feels fresh. I like POE okay, but fresh it is not.