Incline Wizardry 8 Enhancements - A Call to Arms!

[Shadenuat]

Why are "blue potions" red

I was hoping samurai will get polearms modded in instead of shield..

..fairy wizard fights in melee better than Lord, hrrhrhrhhh.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Why are "blue potions" red

I was hoping samurai will get polearms modded in instead of shield..

..fairy wizard fights in melee better than Lord, hrrhrhrhhh.

Potions have colors corresponding to health/stamina/mana bars. They are renamed to simply "Potion". DraQ called that popamole, I call it intuitive.
Polearm as samurai class skill is already in.
Fairy wizard has pitiful health and cannot wear or even carry anything. And I already liked Lords before the changes, the class is fine now, I think.

Well, should samurai get better weaponry? Proposal:
- No-Dachi stronger, damage higher than Bushido Blade, BB will still have the advantage of speed and free off-hand.
- maybe improve Bushido Blade a bit
- a new endgame grade Samurai & Ninja polearm, could require INT or Wizardry and make a counterpart for Zizka Star.
And DraQ, what should the proposed Nagamaki lok like?

EDIT: About stealth: Cosmic Forge doesn't have the functionality to change the stealth or defense formula and I'm not aware of any way around it. The author of the unofficial exe patch maybe could, but that's a long shot.

 

[DraQ]

Potions have colors corresponding to health/stamina/mana bars. They are renamed to simply "Potion". DraQ called that popamole, I call it intuitive.

I call it "disregarding original's aesthetic choices" .
Plus it was nice to never know if unidentified blue potion will restore your health in a pinch, or do something pretty much random. With red potions you only get to guess between normal and awesome restoration.
Popamole.

Polearm as samurai class skill is already in.

Glory to the poky sticks!

And DraQ, what should the proposed Nagamaki lok like?

What an odd question. If none of the extra sprites cuts it then it's either reusing (possibly shortened and stretched) naginata or adding moar hilt to katana.
I don't know what exactly is feasible here.

EDIT: About stealth: Cosmic Forge doesn't have the functionality to change the stealth or defense formula and I'm not aware of any way around it. The author of the unofficial exe patch maybe could, but that's a long shot.

That's a bit crap. As it is the best thing I could envision would be dropping the skill (if only to stop rogues/ninjas from being able to tank better than the actual tanks) but Bethesda patching always makes me boil with inside.

The optimal solution, of course would be dropping AC bonus and making enemies able to attack further rows in melee when ignoring sneaking character right through them in the same way the can attack through a disabled one, but if the optimal solution is unachievable...

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Samurai's gear is fine, it's powerful and there's enough of it. It's just that it should be made a guaranteed drop. In vanilla bb, muramasa and majority of samurai armor was a random drop basically impossible to get without savescumming.

 

[Shadenuat]

Damn, I should have waited then, had to make my fapanese a ninja to use polearms.
Sometimes I just wish for as many weapon choices for every class as possible. Like maces even for rogues (blackjack lol). Otherwise it's just swords swords swords for everyone.

I like new item icons and models.

And I already liked Lords before the changes, the class is fine now, I think.

Maybe I should pump Senses or something for dual wielding. Never managed to make Lords work without pair of maces. Are there any new daggers for offhand? Like a blessed dirk or alike, only for fighters&lords. Thieves always had the best stuff.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

As it is the best thing I could envision would be dropping the skill (if only to stop rogues/ninjas from being able to tank better than the actual tanks) but Bethesda patching always makes me boil with inside.

The optimal solution, of course would be dropping AC bonus and making enemies able to attack further rows in melee when ignoring sneaking character right through them in the same way the can attack through a disabled one, but if the optimal solution is unachievable...

That's pretty much the way I see it. I'm leaning towards making "No stealth" an option during the installation (the 1.0 will have both manual 7zip version and exe installer, hooray for Inno Setup!).
Can do the same with blue / colored potions.


Nagamaki - what I meant were stats.
But what I have trouble with graphically is the mace Maiden Head. What's that supposed to be?

 

[DraQ]

Like maces even for rogues (blackjack lol).

YES PLEASE.

Absolutely shitty damage, decent K.O. chance, light, fast and offhand capable.

Nagamaki - what I meant were stats.

Ah, ok.

Something between naginata and no-dachi, I figure, as the weapon itself is pretty much that.

What's the current status of Ninja and Lord changes, BTW?

 

[Shadenuat]

Probably a known bug but offhand capable weapons should be drawn half the size or they stick out from their boxes in inventory (cutlass).
Just had an item (new 1-8 dagger) dissapear from Antony after I talked to him second time... weird.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

What's the current status of Ninja and Lord changes, BTW?

Complete class changes:

Spoiler

Lord

• Additional ability: +2 AC Bonus (because regen doesn't cut it at all)
  
  
• Bonus skill: Mace & Flail instead of Dual weapons, because:

-Shield is Lord's symbol, why a bonus going against it?
-Dual Weapons don't benefit from the +25% bonus over 100

• added Professional skill:Shield (suits more)
  
  
• added Proffessional Skill: Dual weapons(to keep a bit of his previous expertise)
  
  
• removed Professional skill: Sword
  
  
• starting item Mace instead of Rapier
  

Samurai

• allowed training ofPolearm skill, Polearm as Professional skill instead of Shield
  
  
• all spears and Naginata are usable bysamurai, no lances or halberds
  
  
• no Dragon Kite, kept *Light* *Shield* available as the rare wacky OP item it has always been
  

Valkyrie has an additional polearm available. It was in the game data, but wasn't placed anywhere in the world.


Ninja

• levels up as hybrid instead of Elite, they will level up together with other hybrids
  
  
• starting gear changed to cloth, Ninja garb improved

 

[Ranselknulf]

You could let Lord's wield 2 handed weapons in one hand with a shield in the other as an expert skill.

Or maybe just specific types of two handed weapons. Been a while since I've played but wasn't there 2 handed axes?

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

So it was actually possible to make ninja level up as a normal hybrid?

 

[DraQ]

Kaucukovnik

Disagreed with removing sword as profesional skill - Lord is supposed to be knightly type, after all. Maybe start with either mace or rapier depending on starting point allocation, similarly to priest starting with either mace or staff.

Also, is hacking in an ability to ignore the cursed status (as if constantly under remove curse) beyond current modding capabilities?

BTW: I've been toying with an idea of 'degrading' Lord from hybrid into just a pious Übertank - no casting, add prayer ability, some hefty defensive bonuses, shield as main skill - leaving only valk as proper fighter/priest.

As for ninja - how about our previous glass cannon idea? As few HPs as possible, backstab in addition to crits, class to bring forth when you absolutely, positively need something dead, but not feasible to keep in the front row all the time.

Finally, what about giving 2w as main skill to Bard?

 

[Shadenuat]

leaving only valk as proper fighter/priest.

That's sexist!

I agree removing swords for Lord completely is a bit rough. Removing throwing or staves would make more sense, leaving him with knight/conquista set of weapons (sword, dagger, mace or axe (I'd go with mace), polearm, bow & modern).

 

[DraQ]

leaving only valk as proper fighter/priest.

That's sexist!

Feminists cannot be sexist.

Ask Roguey .

Spoiler

 

[Shadenuat]

I love new spell damage. Even if it added proportionally to the amount of deaths every of my characters suffered.

I forgot how strange Expert difficulty in game is. How you land 1 out of 10 hits in the beginning, but then become so overleveled and characters grow to be so powerful you might just played on Easy. I've yet to visit Sea Caves, and my Bishop can cast Nuclear Blast. Woah.

Gadgeteer + Flashlight is like, "Rangers? Never heard about 'em". They always were decent, but with improved spell damage and even more gadgets they just rock now. I should have named mine "Tsunami_allheal_game4u". I ran around a bit murdering low level mobs for lulz with Jackhammer (up to 80 damage per creature). Drr drrr drrrr
Poor rangers. The last thing they were good for (convenience) was taken away from them with a flip of a switch on a flashlight...

Fighters. No changes here I guess. Still a char to carry hybrids on his back through ~1/2 of the game.

Lords still suck. Hope new version will improve them somehow. Give them +25% in maces already. And I was really hoping for a good mace or any Lord-only weapon. And something cool&cursed to make use of his ability (since any char can just stock up on amulets of heal/vitality rings/robes and use cursed stuff no problem). Almost whole game is finished, and nothing particularly great. Only locations I did not visit are Peak and underwater/sea caves... hm...
(reads mod description)
....
FUCK

Well, I ended up running him with Vulcan Hammer&Diamond Eyes. Finally, at level 20 he is hitting something. Had to play around with SPD to find what SPD I am comfortable with, since I forgot what to do with that stat (it's not worth maxing, you only need amount you are comfortable with to add Haste spell to it, for me it's between 70 and 80, but with Bard and his 7 powered drums it may be no more than 70 probably).
I really should have pumped SEN at least a weebit, maybe to ~60. Would help his dual wielding grow. Even if it probably doesn't affect much.

Ninja (not gimmicky one, but "normal", with melee and throwing together) still not worth of Elite slot. Waiting for them to become just a hybrid. Nunchaku sucks. No damage, no armor penetration. Sai are good for defence but damage sucks and crit ain't worth it. But I go to rynjins, open chest in 3d hut and suddenly find Light Sword there. Woah.
So I gave it to my melee ninja with Swords = 0, Daggers 75+, and guess what. Her attack rating IMPROVED! That's how broken this gimmick of a weapon is. Plus 6 AR... after rapax castle her sword is almost 50 I think. Daymn.
Sure there is always Doomstaff option for non-fairies, but if I wanted a staff wielder I'd just make a monk. Zatoichi is so OP.
People who think ninjas can't be on front line are wrong btw. For example, max stealth + dual sai + jewelry makes for ~20 AC. Even if Sai sucks as mainhand weapon. Wasn't any trouble to keep ninja alive with fighter&lord also backing her up.

Incredible overdependance on items and how even sucky chars can suddenly end up monsters with strong weapons is what I hate about Wiz8 class design (CoC being worst example of this).
But I wonder if game would benefit from another returning throwing weapon? Returning dagger for Thieves/Ninjas to give Thieves new options and completey solve Ninja's problems?

I also ran a 3-book DPS-oriented bishop (INT+SEN). Yeah, I really tried to level all characters I don't like or never used (melee ninja, dps bishop, lord). But that one actually worked. With new spell damage, he is on par with Gadgeteer at least. I hate playing Bishops in beginning, I actually killed myself once with my own spells cause magic missile miscasted TWICE. And I always run out of spell picks.

Also mod seemed to change some book locations. I couldn't find anything decent in Crock's inventory. What he usually had now was in Ferro's. Really hated that, but perhaps it's for more challenge.
Well in the end Bishop turned alright. A real magic machine, Wiz/Alch/Psi close to 100 and all realms above 80, with some lagging a little (air&earth). Still, I like 2 spellcasters more. It's a pain casting Haste/Elemental shield/Soul shield from one char (Lord was too unreliable for a long time, before I maxed his fighting skills).
Yeah, I was actually talking Nuclear Blast. It got boosted a lot. But it still sucks, at least for Bishop, cause I can only cast it with 3 dots max (1 green, 2 yellow).

Before mod I was thinking on trying an Air/Divinity focused Wizard. Asphyxiation + Elemental (since stock Fire&Ice suck). But with mod I might try running a casual Wizard in my parties again.

P.S. I also forgot how disturbing and amusing at the same time everything Rapax is. Prisoners dying from boners crying for demoness and an altar that looks like a vagina. hue
hurrah for snake titties

 

[TigerKnee]

Ninja (not gimmicky one, but "normal", with melee and throwing together) still not worth of Elite slot. Waiting for them to become just a hybrid.

Aren't they already?

 

[Shadenuat]

Ninja (not gimmicky one, but "normal", with melee and throwing together) still not worth of Elite slot. Waiting for them to become just a hybrid.

Aren't they already?

With version of mod I played both ninja and bishop were consistently lagging behind lord in levels.

It's fine for Bishop, he's worth it, but Ninja? nah
9 skill points per level for everyone means raising char with dual weapons, ranged and magic just ain't possible unless you grind/meta like a total bastard. And ninja extra skills aren't that useful anyway.
Characters in Wiz8 are good when they do no more than 2 things. That's why Gadgeteer/Bard are so amazing - they only need 1 skill to make all their spells as powerful as any spellcaster's. So they can do more than 2 things (like Gadgeteer is an accomplished ranged character, powerful caster, buffer and healer, and can open locks).

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Pretty much.

 

[WaltC333]

Just wondering when the next version beyond 0.75 will be released. I've been stopped at the same bug consistently with this version, so...am not playing, but rather simply waiting on the next release. (Just finished MMX and am replaying MM7 at the moment.)

 

[Major_Blackhart]

What bug?

 

[Kaucukovnik]

I'm glad to hear the powered up direct damage spells work well. It's a pity that we can't give some of them a chance of status effects as these are either hardcoded or not documented yet.

Ninja already levels up as hybrid in 0.75. The only remaining Elite exp class is Bishop now, which is indeed apropriate. But I agree that multiple casters are ultimately better as you can actually use all the magic arsenal during a battle.
Thanks for pointing out the power of "item-casters", Bard and Gadgeteer. I should be careful about giving them more powerful gadgets, as their limited arsenal and lower spell power levels are supposed to offset their ease of skill development.

Ranger si still not useless, if you want an Alchemy hybrid, Ninja is the worse of the two (except Fairies, of course, but that's a Wizardry trademark).
Zizka Star is supposed to be the needed Lord-only uber weapon. It is found together with the key to Marten's tomb. Is it still too weak to compete with other classes' top gear? Oh, and I'm finally actually setting its Piety 75 requirement. It was way too good for imported parties and multi-classed opportunists. Should I add Mace & flail requirement of 65 to prevent weak and fragile holy men from multiclassing for it?

I'm not aware of gimping Crock's inventory. Maybe bad luck? Most of his stuff is not flagged as always available.

The dependence on particular few items annoys me too. But I don't want to oversaturate the game world with wonderful equipment like most mods do.
I hope to alleviate this problem in later releases that will introduce the new areas. Some items could become random drops again, if there is a large pool of them and a lot of possibilities to obtain them.

Here's a view of the largest WIP area:

Spoiler

About 65% of modelling and texture work is done. A lot of the missing architecture is simple copy&paste of existing blocks.

Also, WaltC333 :

What bug?

 

[Shadenuat]

...yeah, what bug? I finished game and didn't notice any.

Ninja already levels up as hybrid in 0.75.

Damn seems I actually installed 0.7
I'm checking .75 now. Things seem really good. But Valk still beats Lord in my opinion. Poor Lords just can't find their place in the world of Wiz.

Ranger si still not useless, if you want an Alchemy hybrid, Ninja is the worse of the two

Yeah in vanilla ninja is like a ranger (also a ranged specialist) but levels up slower.
IMO just the idea of mixing ranged physical specialist with dps-oriented magic is bad. I don't see why would you want a poor man's healer without tsunami/death cloud but who can shoot arrows at people... guess you can make a melee/alchemist? But I am not a fan of that idea either. Well, maybe with modified spell damage... and a bunch of cool axes... and cool debuffs... but damn, armor melt, web are Wizardry spells so you can't lower their armor/web them and chop with an axe.
Would be fantastic if you could summon animals/monsters as class ability, why didn't developers think of that.
Earth magic is always so underwhelming in games. But at least Earthquake now rocks. Hehe. Get it. Earthquake, rocks.
I'm killing myself.

Is it still too weak to compete with other classes' top gear?

No it's a good weapon, alhough SEN penalty for a dual-wielding oriented class is
Never noticed if Possesion works or not. Maybe the dice just didn't like me.

Should I add Mace & flail requirement of 65 to prevent weak and fragile holy men from multiclassing for it?

Wouldn't it be more in spirit of the class to add something like HP drain -3 on it so only Lord could use it without penalties? Or are you getting rid of that class feature?

Maybe bad luck? Most of his stuff is not flagged as always available.

It is not? Guess I always had good luck before then.

I should be careful about giving them more powerful gadgets, as their limited arsenal and lower spell power levels are supposed to offset their ease of skill development.

Lower power levels? Hah! They grow in skills so fast it seems like they always cast better. I know it is random (as you can get a buff from level 4 to 7 from a gadgeteer, for example, even if he has 100 in skill), but even specialists can't spam 7 level spells at highest power I believe (shit like Nuclear Blast still will have a bunch of yellow dots).

Btw do you know if Power Cast only works on spells you cast or items (pots, gadgets, musical instruments) too? I always wondered...

 

[WaltC333]

What bug?

I'm in the giant Tree House (today it's good if I can remember my own name!...) and at a particular spot--whenever I engage in combat--bam--a lock-up, a complete freeze. Have to task-mgr out, end the task, restart the game and load from a save--and then it happens again. Same bat-time, same bat-channel... There are just so many variables that are coming together to cause this that I shudder to contemplate them all. I've just been waiting on the 1.0 version--or, at least the .95 version or thereabouts before I try it again. I started the game over at the .7 version and then updated to the .75 version--which may have explained what's happened. Perhaps I should have begun a new game with .75, but...I didn't. I'd resolved just to wait on a latter release before trying again...

It's not a big deal, really--I just don't want to start another game until a later-than .75 version is released. Everything *else* aside from that one glitch, seems superb! Just curious about a time frame--if there is one, that is...

 

[Major_Blackhart]

You mean trynton?
Got screenshots etc?

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Well, there is the exp change for Ninja that is save-incompatible, but that shouldn't cause a lockup, you should just still have any Ninjas from your saves level up as elite. Did you try an earlier save & running up to the point of the freeze? Maybe we could isolate a point in your game when the cause of this bug appeared. I could use your saves to experiment...

If you have the pagoda preview installed it may be some weird pathfinding issue or maybe simple overload for the engine? It IS a bit wonky on different machines after all.

I want to have the two complete areas ready for the release. Within a week there will be a release candidate of the basic (no-new-content) version. I'll start a playthrough and will appreciate anyone else doing so and reporting anything wrong.
And if anyone makes a sensible sub-mod, I welcome it as an optional component. For example most of the doable class changes are very easy to do, same for item and monster stats or placement.

There is one pretty common criticism of Wiz8, which is tedious amount of combat and possible remedy for this.
This is actually quite controversial change to do. Less combat means you will be sorely underpowered for most fixed opponents. Faster exp gain doesn't cut it, as the main benefit of frequent battles is skill growth. Which means some kind of "easy mode" would have to be included.

Again, new areas should solve this need for training naturally. Skeletons in the crypt will mean less poppies on Arnika road.