Incline Wizardry 8 Enhancements - A Call to Arms!

[Bloax]

There is no such thing as an overpowered skill in a game where you can chose what to play with, there are only things that make the game easier or harder.

Hell, stealth isn't particularly great unless you let the game run in realtime for half an hour while being shot at from a distance by a group of weak seekers, and even then it isn't guaranteed to save your butt. (I've splatted an ironman game to underestimating crimson poppies despite cheesing it.)

Stripping Ninja of its vitality requirements could be a thing though, since they have quite broad requirements at the moment.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Tried some Might & Magic X: Legacy. I hate it.
The game is so hell bent on never letting you get away with anything that it's basically forcing you down the intended path without much deviation. Open world? Forget about it, every fork from the main path just murders you. Highly variable party composition? Either cover all the expected bases or suffer greatly. Overcoming relatively stong opposition is never worth it as the cost in consumables and potential incapacitated party members by far outweighs the little gain.
Supposedly things start turning around level 20. Didn't see that happening, ragequit ensued.
Also the reliance on reloading instead of retreat was annoying. Plain bad design, a game should be, at least purely theoretically, finishable on ironman. Wiz8 is clearly superior.


So there. I won't be nerfing anything that is potentially overpowered. Stealthy dudes are already slightly worse off due to stronger enemy nukes that don't care about their visibility.
Want real challenge? Go for inconvenient party builds, ramp up the difficulty, even play on Iron Man. There is enough space for unforgiving hardcore challenge. No need to cripple gameplay options for the sake of adding more.

Dropping Vitality requirement for Ninja sounds rather good though. Not sure about Monk, maybe just lower it a bit for that one.

EDIT: Recalled another unfixable cheese - postponing level-ups! Your skills still raise from use and if you want, you can fight battles effectively 10 levels below you and there is no drawback until you'd reach achieving an expert skill from 100 in a stat.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

I didn't hate it, but it's a very average game and poor party building is one of the two worst things about it, the other is the fact that it rivals Bethesda games for looting being completely unexciting. I still supported it, first retail PC game of this kind in over a decade and so on.

Postponed level ups are the cheesiest of the cheese, I only condone it in case of the retards inexperienced crpg players moaning about the Arnika road.

 

[DraQ]

An idea just occured to me - are expert skills hardcoded?

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Of course they are!
All we can do is change their controlling attributes.

 

[DraQ]

Of course they are!

FFFFFFFFFFFFFF-

 

[Ranselknulf]

How'd the custom zone making go on this mod? Did you ever find a way to get past the maximum zone number limit?

I've been keeping an eye on this occasionally and plan to play it once it nears a completed state.

 

[WaltC333]

Tried some Might & Magic X: Legacy. I hate it.
The game is so hell bent on never letting you get away with anything that it's basically forcing you down the intended path without much deviation. Open world? Forget about it, every fork from the main path just murders you. Highly variable party composition? Either cover all the expected bases or suffer greatly. Overcoming relatively stong opposition is never worth it as the cost in consumables and potential incapacitated party members by far outweighs the little gain.
Supposedly things start turning around level 20. Didn't see that happening, ragequit ensued.
Also the reliance on reloading instead of retreat was annoying. Plain bad design, a game should be, at least purely theoretically, finishable on ironman. Wiz8 is clearly superior.

I've actually finished it twice... I liked the game for what it was. thought it was very much like the M&M6-9 games in that if you don't do the quests you cannot complete the game; if you don't do the quests you will get wholly unsatisfactory character advancement, etc. (You can't get anywhere just running around and aimlessly "killing stuff"--and that's how it should be in any game, imo.) In M&M6-9, you can go anywhere you want when you want, but be prepared to die quickly as the game will not hold your hand and tell you where you cannot go and *survive*. Make the wrong combat choices before you are ready, decide to take shortcuts around the quests, and you'll get clobbered. But M&M has always been that way. Like all M&M games I've played, I use two fighters of some description & 2 spell casters of some description, and everyone begins with a ranged-weapons skill. Yea, I would never, ever have thought to compare W8 (in a category by itself) with any M&M game (also in their own niche--not Heros, which I never cared for.) The games are, to me, completely different. If you start with a poorly chosen party in M&M 6-X, you won't last very long. I think that is the way it should be in any game. IE, party selection should not be a gimmick; it should matter! If you pick a weak party then you should *expect* to get smashed to bits, quickly, over and over, until you wise up and pick a decent party. Players should have to *think* before playing, plan their parties, think about how to finish their quests, strategically manipulate their combat (so that everything isn't mindless click-fest Diablo-style mouse-killing...) (Doom sucks, in other words... I won't buy Doom-like, mindless shooting-fish-in-a-barrel games...!)

I think M&MX could have been and would have been much better and much more polished had Ubisoft paid the developers for another six-months of patching & bug fixing. Ubisoft is fairly stupid about after-shipping game support, whereas companies like CDPR (Witcher1/2/3) are exactly the opposite and continue to build value into their software years after they ship it--and so people keep buying it years after it ships, etc.

There were tons of little things that needed polishing in X, etc. Voice overs, better balance for characters and classes, etc. "Retro" graphics mode was just dumb as a rock... I've got M&M 6-9 installed (permanently) and not even 2d M&M6 looked as bad as M&MX "retro"... That was a waste of time. Also, one of the most annoying things about the M&M games has been the "repair" requirement--it's just make-work and contributes nothing to the game. One of the first things I did with M&MX was edit the spreadsheet data files to make all of the stuff in the game invulnerable. Highly recommended...as you won't even notice that stuff doesn't break as you play...

BTW, still patiently waiting for development past the .75 version... You've got me really anticipating something special!

 

[Bloax]

Might and Magic 4-8 are perfectly doable with a solo (non-hybrid melee class if you are a complete masochist) character, although MM4/5 in particular require absurd amounts of reloading thanks to instadeath being very common later on in those.
6-8 are more forgiving when it comes to bad parties thanks to how gloriously exploitable the realtime mode is.

Doom doesn't suck, but not liking it is completely fine. (?Perhaps the Hideous Destructor mod for it would be more up your alley?)

Might and Magic 10 was done on a very tight budget, which is partly why it's pretty "shallow" - the fact that they made so much out of so little is already impressive.
oh and the "retro" option in M&MX was a cameo of the 320x240 DOS resolution that the M&M games before 6 ran in, and it wasn't a waste of time since it's just making the game render everything at a 320x240 resolution and scale the result

 

[WaltC333]

Might and Magic 4-8 are perfectly doable with a solo (non-hybrid melee class if you are a complete masochist) character, although MM4/5 in particular require absurd amounts of reloading thanks to instadeath being very common later on in those.
6-8 are more forgiving when it comes to bad parties thanks to how gloriously exploitable the realtime mode is.

I really got to enjoy the realtime/turn-based mechanics of the latter games, did you? I didn't stint at changing modes in the middle of a fight when it provided a tactical advantage--turn based I feel was *almost* cheating because it neatly staggered your attacks per opponent "automagically," and so it was a great way to win what might have seemed an overwhelming fight realtime (requiring preternatural reflexes...!) Great combat option and implementation, I think.

Doom doesn't suck, but not liking it is completely fine. (?Perhaps the Hideous Destructor mod for it would be more up your alley?)

The Doom stuff was always so simple--boiled down to a reflex contest between "button mashers", I always thought. I actually liked Quake--the first couple of iterations wherein id at least pretended to have some kind of story to tell...! (Eerily similar to the original Unreal/Return back-story in some ways.) I've just never been much of an id fan, although I bought most everything they published, mostly out of boredom at the time. What I really wanted was something much more like W8 or pre-Heros M&M--rarer than hen's teeth. But, hey--if games like this weren't so rare we might not appreciate them so fully. (Or so I console myself.)

Might and Magic 10 was done on a very tight budget, which is partly why it's pretty "shallow" - the fact that they made so much out of so little is already impressive.
oh and the "retro" option in M&MX was a cameo of the 320x240 DOS resolution that the M&M games before 6 ran in, and it wasn't a waste of time since it's just making the game render everything at a 320x240 resolution and scale the result

Yes, as I mentioned, I actually like the game--done on a Ubisoft shoestring budget, as you say. I agree that the "retro" pixellation had a purpose--of sorts--but as the game was M&MX and *not* a remake of the earliest M&M games (all of which I currently have installed and running under Win8.1x64 and none of which I think look as bad as "retro"), the "retro" mode thing was a gimmick that added zero to game play. Maybe if they'd called the game "Tribute to M&M," etc., it would have made more sense--but M&MX should not have been about "retro" it should have been a M&M universe story told entirely in the present tense, imo! "X", you know...the game should really have been "X" as opposed to "A hodgepodge of lots of the old M&M titles." (I am nothing if not an opinionated cuss, you'll note.)

Ubisoft could have resurrected the pre-Heros M&M franchise to rival any of the best rpgs being made today. But, no vision. I thought the selling price of the game @ $30 was perfectly commensurate with the value it provided. But it could have been so much more--and should have been. What's the point of resurrecting a classic franchise if you don't aim to do something more than a one-off, gimmick-laden extravaganza? Ubisoft frankly pissed me off with its attitude towards the game and its developers--I believe the developers really wanted to at least polish the game to a much finer sheen--but Ubisoft pulled the plug prematurely. Biggest disappointment of all? Ubisoft is keeping the M&M IP (AFAIK) but apparently wants nothing to do with "M&MXI," but instead wants to do another cookie-cutter M&M Heros project! I wish this IP could be sold to people who might do something with it--but that's a pipe-dream, I know.

Enjoyed the comments, so thanks for the conversation!... I have this site bookmarked and pop out here every week or so just to see what's happening with this really nice vision of W8 that K is doing such a good job with! It's nice to talk with folks who know and like their games even if we may disagree from time to time--spice of life, eh?

 

[dopefisher]

I fairly enjoyed MMX as well.

Anyway, just wanted to say I put off replaying Wiz 8 for like the 20th time now until today, and I am choosing this mod to give it another go. However, one thing I noticed is that it does seem a bit easier. I cannot seem to find a search function in this forum, or I would have done my research before asking, does it get harder later on, or should I put it on expert?

 

[dopefisher]

Sorry mods again (for being new, i can't seem to figure out how to edit my previous post :/).

I just want to let the mod creator know that this mod makes the game as a whole feel much fresher, and after a while, I got my butt handed to me. Keep up the good work with the mod!

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Thanks and sorry that the new version isn't done yet - it should have been out some time ago. But I'm almost done fixing the sizes and coordinates of all the added item graphics. It's the most tedious part, but it will be over soon.

The game is probably a bit easier until enemies start using the improved attacks spells on you, at that point it should be pretty much back to normal.

Another idea I got:
Bloodlust: add stamina drain to counterbalance its power, it would make it more of a last resort weapon instead of mass killing device, at least early in the game. It would also make it a questionable choice for bards.

Muramasa: lower damage, Berserk, cursed, 1 point HP and Stamina drain
new sword Masamune: pretty much the current Muramasa
(I think this goes very well with the legend about the two swordsmiths)

 

[garren]

Any mod to stop monsters respawning between locations on the map? I hate that.

EDIT: looks like this was asked already, chameleon spell, ok. Still, respawns suck.

 

[Salk]

Any mod to stop monsters respawning between locations on the map? I hate that.

I agree with you completely, garren! I hate respawn and regard it as the cheapest form of gameplay design.

 

[Kaucukovnik]

I hate respawn and regard it as the cheapest form of gameplay design.

Without these extra battles most skills would develop much slower. Therefore enemies would be more dangerous than what their level is supposed to represent. I don't think anyone would want to sort out the resulting mess.
And calling Wiz8's system "respawning" is quite an understatement. I'm personally mostly fine with the way random encounters and level scaling is done in this game.

I'd like to decrease the amount random trash battles when I can compensate for the lost training opportunities with new battles in new areas. But I'll definitely need someone to take care of most of the Cosmic Forge side of the mod for this kind of expansion, both modeling and implementing the locations would take me alone ages.

 

[Bloax]

Having the maps scale the random encounters to even further heights and fixing the "overflow" issue some maps (like Arnika Road) have with their random encounters would probably help a lot.
The overflow in question is how the spawns get progressively harder until the party is around level 12 but then resetting to complete scrubs once you reach even higher levels.
In smaller parties this basically means that you either meet enemies you can't deal with or you meet enemies you would've met at level 3 once your party is strong enough to handle the enemies they couldn't before.

whether this is fixable or not is an entirely different question though :^D

 

[burntbiscuit_99]

Wow - I'm a long time Wizardry 8 player and just stumbled upon this thread. I read the whole thing and I found all the debate/dialog to be fantastic (I even enjoyed all that painful back and forth on the Lord vs. Valkyrie debate!)

If I understand correctly this extremely-promising sounding Mod is not yet at v1 status yet, correct? I know it's a part-time labor of love but any idea when it will get there? And is there any value in me playing it in its current state or should I wait until v1? I believe that I've played every other Wiz 8 mod by this point and I can't tell you how excited I am for this one...

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Graphic replacements are definitely worth it. It's one of the rare cases when the modded assets fit the game perfectly and are better than originals.

If you know the game then just study the class and item changes and decide if you like them.

Additional gameplay content is unfinished at this point.

 

[TigerKnee]

I say this mod is pretty playable now because unlike other mods it's supposed to keep the spirit of the original intact, just with better balancing (as opposed to something like Dodd's mod which just goes off the walls in its craziness)

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Thanks for the kind words, guys. Looks like the intended goals are being achieved. The 0.9 RC has been briefly tested by a few of my friends and everything seems to be in order, so here it is. There will be minor changes, but savegame compatibility is almost guarranteed.

Changes since previous version:
-almost completed item icons; some small icons (active weapon indicator next to portrait) are still misaligned
-improved Ninja garb and gave ninja simple cloth for starting gear (early game solo faerie ninja will probably be more hardcore than ever )
-faeries can now wear Necklace of Endurance
-Mana stones no longer vanish when depleted (tip by townltu)
-added shorter combat sounds by Bloax
-two switches suggested by DraQ - healing & stamina potions with identical icons and disabled stealth
-a fancy installer to choose the initial setting of all option switches

Download:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/u8o91pl2b77c28c/Wizardry8_Enhanced_v0.9_RC.exe


For the added content I'll definitely need a partner in crime to manage the Cosmic Forge side of things so that I can concentrate on models and textures.
It's not hard to learn, CF is quite transparent most of the time and some tutorials come with it. For example the no-stealth mod took a minute to create, 10 min to test - the on/off switch took longer to make than the mini-mod itself.
I just don't have the time to do it all, so in case nobody comes on board, it's not coming anytime soon.

A writer will be needed later on as well, I have the ideas, but I don't really trust my English enough to pollute the game with it.

 

[Bloax]

A writer will be needed later on as well, I have the ideas, but I don't really trust my English enough to pollute the game with it.

I see a writer's call
On a sullen november fall
"Help me!", his call
Foreign words his downfall

Never fear, help is near
For I can write and I can rhyme
Time to see how I shine
Worst case, oh dear

We'll just get someone else to write some bad prose for you. :v
(tl;dr i can probably do it and i'm pretty sharp at english)
(and yes the five-minute poem was absolutely necessary)

 

[DraQ]

Thanks for the kind words, guys. Looks like the intended goals are being achieved. The 0.9 RC has been briefly tested by a few of my friends and everything seems to be in order, so here it is. There will be minor changes, but savegame compatibility is almost guarranteed.

Changes since previous version:
-almost completed item icons; some small icons (active weapon indicator next to portrait) are still misaligned
-improved Ninja garb and gave ninja simple cloth for starting gear (early game solo faerie ninja will probably be more hardcore than ever )
-faeries can now wear Necklace of Endurance
-Mana stones no longer vanish when depleted (tip by townltu)
-added shorter combat sounds by Bloax
-two switches suggested by DraQ - healing & stamina potions with identical icons and disabled stealth
-a fancy installer to choose the initial setting of all option switches

Download:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/u8o91pl2b77c28c/Wizardry8_Enhanced_v0.9_RC.exe


For the added content I'll definitely need a partner in crime to manage the Cosmic Forge side of things so that I can concentrate on models and textures.
It's not hard to learn, CF is quite transparent most of the time and some tutorials come with it. For example the no-stealth mod took a minute to create, 10 min to test - the on/off switch took longer to make than the mini-mod itself.
I just don't have the time to do it all, so in case nobody comes on board, it's not coming anytime soon.

A writer will be needed later on as well, I have the ideas, but I don't really trust my English enough to pollute the game with it.

Will you be going for super glass cannon ninja we've discussed - Very low HP but both backstab and crit, ability to use pretty much any light weapon?

Also 2w as bard class skill, with Lord getting something else, enabling them to pursue greater weapon variety?

 

[burntbiscuit_99]

Thanks, guys - I'll definitely give it a try right now. Any recommendations for a party?

 

[Bloax]

Drac-Lord, Fae-Nin, Fae-Wiz :^)