Why do RPGs, even indie ones, not make use of more immersive sim elements?

[General Disarray]

Well with Larian I was mostly refering to BG3. It has quite a lot more going on now than JUST barrelmancy.

Please educate me cause except barrelmancy there isn't much in the game. The mass/weight simulation is a bad joke.

Well you have height with jump and fly witch allows you to approach and gain entry from multiple direction. Push as mentioned, throw stuff, the usual object manipulation. Spells that allows you to charm, sleep, enlarge, shrink, talk to animals or the dead. Remember that Ultima Underworld also counts as immersive sim, not just the anti social game System Shock so you can not only look at the physic engine for immersive sims. Follow Charlaton Wounder at youtube, he is producing a video on why BG3 is an immsim so just wait for that one.

I have not played them, but at a quick glance yeah I would say so. Open world immsims ;p, a combination of genres bound to get me targeted by the local System Shock like crowd.

Might I suggest to you the game P.A.M.E.L.A.? It's heavily inspired by System Shock et al but it also has hunger, thirst, sleep and base building in an open world. It's very janky and unfinished but I highly enjoyed my time with it.

Spoiler

https://af.gog.com/game/pamelar?as=1649904300

Very true! Like you say there are a lot of immsims being made, Gloomwood, Weird West, Peripeteia, Shadows of doubt, Amnesia: The bunker etc etc. My personal favorite is Peripeteia, I really loved there old demo. But playing Weird West now and am going to play Shadows of doubt as well.

I still have hope we will see more immsim gameplay in modern rpgs, but through companies choosing to add survival games gameplay, but the end result will be more immsim gameplay like in Outward and BotW. Or through dungeon master dialog simulation like BG3.

Good video though I've already seen it. You could check out this blog which gets updated semi-regularly, if you haven't already!

Thanks I wilk try it out the game! Thanks, will check it out as well!

Immersive sims needs specific implemented games engines. At present, the overwhelming majority of modern indie developers is not able to go beyond a generic game implementation made with Unity or Unreal.

Deus Ex was built on the Unreal Engine 1...

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Deus Ex was built on the Unreal Engine 1...

It is a well know fact that they used heavily-modified version of the Unreal engine that they implemented for the game. As I said, this is well beyond the capacity of the majority of indie developers.

 

[Roguey]

It is a well know fact that they used heavily-modified version of the Unreal engine that they implemented for the game. As I said, this is well beyond the capacity of the majority of indie developers.

WolfEye did it with Woke West.

 

[Gargaune]

Follow Charlaton Wounder at youtube, he is producing a video on why BG3 is an immsim so just wait for that one.

If BG3's an immersive sim, then Rusty was right and the term is meaningless.

Spoiler

BG3 isn't an immersive sim, neither is Weird West, and Rusty was full of shit. "Immersive sim" designates a comprehensive approach to gameplay design that pursues narrative embodiment at a mechanical level, of which emergent gameplay is just one component among several (FPP primacy, diegetic interfaces, abstracted time etc.), and it's best illustrated by the holy trinity of Thief, System Shock 2 and Deus Ex. That's what it means, games "like that", that's what it was used for historically, and this dilettantish modern reinterpretation attempting to reunite Deus Ex, Weird West and motherfucking Skyrim under some sort of common umbrella is revisionist and devoid of practical value.

Deus Ex was built on the Unreal Engine 1...

It is a well know fact that they used heavily-modified version of the Unreal engine that they implemented for the game. As I said, this is well beyond the capacity of the majority of indie developers.

Guys, game engines aren't this arcane, impenetrable alien tech that requires seven ranks in Freemasonry and a goat sacrifice to bend to your will. RatTower is making Monomyth on UE4 all on his own. If you've got the gameplay vision, you can build it in Unreal or a whole bunch of other middleware, that's what they're there for.

 

[Dave the Druid]

Follow Charlaton Wounder at youtube

DO NOT DO THIS. He's a dipshit who makes shit up.

 

[OttoQuitmarck]

Follow Charlaton Wounder at youtube, he is producing a video on why BG3 is an immsim so just wait for that one.

If BG3's an immersive sim, then Rusty was right and the term is meaningless.

Spoiler

BG3 isn't an immersive sim, neither is Weird West, and Rusty was full of shit. "Immersive sim" designates a comprehensive approach to gameplay design that pursues narrative embodiment at a mechanical level, of which emergent gameplay is just one component among several (FPP primacy, diegetic interfaces, abstracted time etc.), and it's best illustrated by the holy trinity of Thief, System Shock 2 and Deus Ex. That's what it means, games "like that", that's what it was used for historically, and this dilettantish modern reinterpretation attempting to reunite Deus Ex, Weird West and motherfucking Skyrim under some sort of common umbrella is revisionist and devoid of practical value.

Deus Ex was built on the Unreal Engine 1...

It is a well know fact that they used heavily-modified version of the Unreal engine that they implemented for the game. As I said, this is well beyond the capacity of the majority of indie developers.

Guys, game engines aren't this arcane, impenetrable alien tech that requires seven ranks in Freemasonry and a goat sacrifice to bend to your will. RatTower is making Monomyth on UE4 all on his own. If you've got the gameplay vision, you can build it in Unreal or a whole bunch of other middleware, that's what they're there for.

Yea.... the average people on the codex have very middling understanding of programming that's for sure...

 

[damagedbrains]

The world Content exists only around the player.

You’re looking for Immersion? The natural conclusion to it meeting the capitalist in his vampire castle was Far Cry - a Frankenstein’s monster born in the flesh of the dead - open map to see secret locations, throw meat and see <insert-local-carnivore> jump out immediately, aggressively (only attacks enemies). I’m sure everyone here knows where these elements, among many, came from. Drip feed disguised in all organic.

Used to be about the world and it’s people but that doesn’t sell. So now… It’s all about You. You the player. You the discoverer. Come, look at what you just found!

 

[damagedbrains]

Follow Charlaton Wounder at youtube, he is producing a video on why BG3 is an immsim so just wait for that one.

If BG3's an immersive sim, then Rusty was right and the term is meaningless.

Spoiler

BG3 isn't an immersive sim, neither is Weird West, and Rusty was full of shit. "Immersive sim" designates a comprehensive approach to gameplay design that pursues narrative embodiment at a mechanical level, of which emergent gameplay is just one component among several (FPP primacy, diegetic interfaces, abstracted time etc.), and it's best illustrated by the holy trinity of Thief, System Shock 2 and Deus Ex. That's what it means, games "like that", that's what it was used for historically, and this dilettantish modern reinterpretation attempting to reunite Deus Ex, Weird West and motherfucking Skyrim under some sort of common umbrella is revisionist and devoid of practical value.

Deus Ex was built on the Unreal Engine 1...

It is a well know fact that they used heavily-modified version of the Unreal engine that they implemented for the game. As I said, this is well beyond the capacity of the majority of indie developers.

Guys, game engines aren't this arcane, impenetrable alien tech that requires seven ranks in Freemasonry and a goat sacrifice to bend to your will. RatTower is making Monomyth on UE4 all on his own. If you've got the gameplay vision, you can build it in Unreal or a whole bunch of other middleware, that's what they're there for.

That said, unreal is extremely bad for anything physics. There’s a reason why Starfield, for all it’s banality, still pulls in a coupla hundred thousand views on a video showing thousands of physicalized potatoes. It’s a stupid video, but it does say something about what makes a game more immersive, b/w the simulation aspect and the graphics.

No excuses though. You make a game with the tech you’re dealt with. Like the painter with burnt wood. And Unreal has almost everything you could want to boot.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

Deus Ex was built on the Unreal Engine 1...

It is a well know fact that they used heavily-modified version of the Unreal engine that they implemented for the game. As I said, this is well beyond the capacity of the majority of indie developers.

Guys, game engines aren't this arcane, impenetrable alien tech that requires seven ranks in Freemasonry and a goat sacrifice to bend to your will. RatTower is making Monomyth on UE4 all on his own. If you've got the gameplay vision, you can build it in Unreal or a whole bunch of other middleware, that's what they're there for.

I am not saying that using Unreal engine is a complex arcane art, quite the opposite, but you still have to dig deeper and don't be scared to create things from scratch, if you truly want to create someting original.

There is a major difference between using a general purpose third-party engine and developing your engine for your games. And no, I am not thinking exclusively about complex graphics pipelines that a small indie studio can't create from scratch for lack of resources. You can realize that there is someting rotten in the state of game developent when the majority of indie devs uses the Unreal engine to make their n-th clone of 2D-pixel-art-platform game.

 

[damagedbrains]

Deus Ex was built on the Unreal Engine 1...

It is a well know fact that they used heavily-modified version of the Unreal engine that they implemented for the game. As I said, this is well beyond the capacity of the majority of indie developers.

Guys, game engines aren't this arcane, impenetrable alien tech that requires seven ranks in Freemasonry and a goat sacrifice to bend to your will. RatTower is making Monomyth on UE4 all on his own. If you've got the gameplay vision, you can build it in Unreal or a whole bunch of other middleware, that's what they're there for.

I am not saying that using Unreal engine is a complex arcane art, quite the opposite, but you still have to dig deeper and don't be scared to create things from scratch, if you truly want to create someting original.

There is a major difference between using a general purpose third-party engine and developing your engine for your games. And no, I am not thinking exclusively about complex graphics pipelines that a small indie studio can't create from scratch for lack of resources. You can realize that there is someting rotten in the state of game developent when the majority of indie devs uses the Unreal engine to make their n-th clone of 2D-pixel-art-platform game.

Unreal for 2d pixel art games really? there are that many 2d pixel art games out there made in unreal engine? I would've thought unity had that for 2d, unreal being it's 3d super cousin.
If this is true, maybe it's solely down to unreal's royalty scheme - 5% royalty but only after the first 1mil$, rest free of charge. Who cares about the 5% after they've bagged in a mil

 

[Gargaune]

I am not saying that using Unreal engine is a complex arcane art, quite the opposite, but you still have to dig deeper and don't be scared to create things from scratch, if you truly want to create someting original.

There is a major difference between using a general purpose third-party engine and developing your engine for your games. And no, I am not thinking exclusively about complex graphics pipelines that a small indie studio can't create from scratch for lack of resources. You can realize that there is someting rotten in the state of game developent when the majority of indie devs uses the Unreal engine to make their n-th clone of 2D-pixel-art-platform game.

It's true a lot of indie developers seem to be using solutions like UE or Unity in near-stock form, but my point is that the reason comes down to the craftsmen, not the tools. Game development is software engineering at the end of the day, and studios, whether they're indie or AAA, have the ability to extend modern middleware with most functionality their designs require. The reason it rarely happens is because said devs don't come up with such designs and stock Unreal functionality is usually sufficient to realise their visions.

Which loops back to my earlier point on this topic, that aside from limited indie resources and AAA risk aversion, a lot of (albeit not all) contemporary RPG developers just don't have the aspirations and creative vision for mechanical sophistication. More and more you'll hear from startup developers that their primary ambition is "to tell awesome stories", it's a cultural problem where the medium's artistic fortes are increasingly misunderstood and reduced to playing second fiddle to dramatic elements.

Unreal for 2d pixel art games really? there are that many 2d pixel art games out there made in unreal engine? I would've thought unity had that for 2d, unreal being it's 3d super cousin.

I think he meant that as a figure speech, though if we're talking seriously, I was under the impression RPG Maker's the big dog in low-end 2d pixel art RPG clones.

 

[Nifft Batuff]

It's true a lot of indie developers seem to be using solutions like UE or Unity in near-stock form, but my point is that the reason comes down to the craftsmen, not the tools. Game development is software engineering at the end of the day, and studios, whether they're indie or AAA, have the ability to extend modern middleware with most functionality their designs require. The reason it rarely happens is because said devs don't come up with such designs and stock Unreal functionality is usually sufficient to realise their visions.

Yes, the problem is not in the tools, but in the craftsmen. Obviously you can do many things in Unreal/Unity/etc, from a technical point of view, if you are creative enough. But I think there is still a strong correlation between the craft and the tools. Because a tool that come with many things already implemented in a general standard way tends to impose a specific creative path. You can see this problem in many creative disciplines, not only in game development.

Unreal for 2d pixel art games really? there are that many 2d pixel art games out there made in unreal engine? I would've thought unity had that for 2d, unreal being it's 3d super cousin.

I think he meant that as a figure speech, though if we're talking seriously, I was under the impression RPG Maker's the big dog in low-end 2d pixel art RPG clones.

Yes, citing Unreal I was mainly speaking figuratively. A moderately creative developer (or an old-school developer) could easily implement a 2D game even using exclusively simple shader programming, without using any pre-packaged solutions. Nevertheless, you will be suprised how many 2D games are made with 3D engines like Unreal/Unity/Godot/etc. The same RPG Maker has been recently merged with Unity (RPG Maker Unite).

This is also has a consequence that you need computers with 8 GB VRAM, ultra fast SSD and 32 GB RAM as min spec for the average modern 2D retro game.

 

[Gargaune]

The same RPG Maker has been recently merged with Unity (RPG Maker Unite).

Oh yeah, you're right, I forgot about that.

 

[Spukrian]

DO NOT DO THIS. He's a dipshit who makes shit up.

My impression is that whenever he says something that's wrong it's mostly because he just doesn't understand the game. In some cases though, it's due to his... questionable taste in some matters (e.g. he thinks BioShock 2 is the worst BioShock, he likes FallOut 3 more than FallOut New Vegas, etc).

He's quite enthusiastic about immersive sims and makes a lot of videos about them, which I appreciate.

 

[Dave the Druid]

DO NOT DO THIS. He's a dipshit who makes shit up.

My impression is that whenever he says something that's wrong it's mostly because he just doesn't understand the game. In some cases though, it's due to his... questionable taste in some matters (e.g. he thinks BioShock 2 is the worst BioShock, he likes FallOut 3 more than FallOut New Vegas, etc).

He's quite enthusiastic about immersive sims and makes a lot of videos about them, which I appreciate.

It's far worse than that, for instance his 'History of immersive sims' video legitimately borders on fiction because he gets so many basic facts completely wrong and makes half his facts up wholesale. Even by the low, low standards of youtubers, Mr. Charlatan is... still nowhere near the worst actually lmao. But his content is still junk. I would highly recommend NOT watching his stuff.

 

[Modron]

It seems like only Larian actually bothers to have immersive sim elements, and even then larian doesn't utilize it all that much in most of their games yet.

You'd think it's not that hard to implement being able to destroy walls, move objects, etc. especially if the game is a 2D rpg? Some traditional roguelikes already have various mechanics like this they are just still missing actual immersive sim level design. We'd be doing so well RPGs wise if all these trad roguelike devs instead made proper RPGs...

Am I perhaps missing any RPGs with immersive sim elements?

Sounds like you should play Voidspire Tactics.

 

[OttoQuitmarck]

It seems like only Larian actually bothers to have immersive sim elements, and even then larian doesn't utilize it all that much in most of their games yet.

You'd think it's not that hard to implement being able to destroy walls, move objects, etc. especially if the game is a 2D rpg? Some traditional roguelikes already have various mechanics like this they are just still missing actual immersive sim level design. We'd be doing so well RPGs wise if all these trad roguelike devs instead made proper RPGs...

Am I perhaps missing any RPGs with immersive sim elements?

Sounds like you should play Voidspire Tactics.

It's on my list honestly.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Fans of imsims are the cyclists of the gaming world; more than the cyclists

 

[REhorror]

What the heck are "immersive sim"?

 

[Roguey]

What the heck are "immersive sim"?

https://www.pcgamer.com/the-designe...-stories-about-making-pcs-most-complex-games/

 

[REhorror]

What the heck are "immersive sim"?

https://www.pcgamer.com/the-designe...-stories-about-making-pcs-most-complex-games/

Steve Gaynor: And I think it's perfectly fair—I think we should start calling them instead of immersive sims, probably digital LARPing. That sounds good to me.

Nope, do not want.

 

[Roguey]

Nope, do not want.

Gaynor is a clown who made a gay walking sim, just ignore his contributions to that talk.

 

[Spukrian]

It's far worse than that, for instance his 'History of immersive sims' video legitimately borders on fiction because he gets so many basic facts completely wrong and makes half his facts up wholesale. Even by the low, low standards of youtubers, Mr. Charlatan is... still nowhere near the worst actually lmao. But his content is still junk. I would highly recommend NOT watching his stuff.

I don't think I've seen that vid. Sounds like I shouldn't.

RDIT: Actually I have seen it but I can't remember anything from it, it must've been so bad I repressed my memories...

 

[Dave the Druid]

Nope, do not want.

Gaynor is a clown who made a gay walking sim, just ignore his contributions to that talk.

Steve Gaynor in that talk always reminds me of Ludacris on 2Pac's Playa Cardz Right (Male.) Just to set this up: on one of the many, many 2Pac albums Interscope released after the mans' death there's a song with a Ludacris feature. For context, Ludacris first became famous several years after 2Pac's murder so it's incredibly unlikely that the two ever met. However through studio magic they managed to edit him into an unreleased 2Pac song and the effect is pretty seamless.

The only problem is that at the end of the song 2Pac starts riffing and they tried to edit in Lucacris to make it seem like the two of them are having a conversation. The problem is :

1. it's not a real conversation, since 2Pac's dead, so the effect is that it just sounds like 2Pac is deliberately ignoring everything Luda says because...
2. Ludacris is an idiot, or at least comes off as one. Because while 2Pac is referencing actual black leaders and calling them "straight gorilla pimps," Luda responds by agreeing with him... and then name-dropping other rappers he knows. Which Tupac ignores because it's not a real conversation, none of those rappers were around when 2Pac was alive and even if they were that's got nothing to do with what 2Pac's actually saying you fool. Like, even if this were a real conversation 2Pac would probably ignore everything Ludacris was saying anyway because it's that inconsequential and dippy.

Seriously this is one of the funniest things to me:

(Timestamp should be 3:47 if it cocks up)

Anyway Gaynor in that talk reminds me of Ludacris. It feels like he's been awkwardly edited in a decade later and everyone there is ignoring his contributions because A: he's not actually there and B: nothing he says has any substance whatsoever

 

[Lyric Suite]

What the heck are "immersive sim"?

https://www.pcgamer.com/the-designe...-stories-about-making-pcs-most-complex-games/

Steve Gaynor: And I think it's perfectly fair—I think we should start calling them instead of immersive sims, probably digital LARPing. That sounds good to me.

Nope, do not want.

They are actually the opposite of digital LARPing.

LARPing implies the thing you are doing is imaginary. A simulation by contrast means that there's an actual concrete effect to the action you are performing.

Digital LARPing would be sometihng like stopping at an inn and lay your character in a bed before quitting in a game like WoW (where as all that's required of you in terms of mechanics is to just be in the inn). A simulation would be like Kingdom Come where there's several actual mechanics attached to sleeping in a bed.

The reactivity in a game like Deus Ex is anything but LARPing. When you walk in the ladies bathroom and you get reprimended for it that's an actual, concrete consequence to your action coded in the game.