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Why do RPGs, even indie ones, not make use of more immersive sim elements?

OttoQuitmarck

Educated
Joined
Aug 1, 2023
Messages
433
Oh you can like Daggerfall all you want, but it ain't an immersive sim. Play the Ultima Underworlds and you'll see the difference.

Also, and I know this is pedantic but, Smh means 'shaking my head' so you just said "shaking my head my head"
Oh yea I'm aware it's not an imsim. It's a great game though (at least on unity where it's actually playable instead of a buggy mess).

I'm aware what smh my head means, it's a turn of phrase on the interwebs.
 

Dave the Druid

Educated
Joined
Dec 29, 2022
Messages
193
"Immersive Sim".
I hate this term.
I'm not sure what else you'd call it.
Deus Ex-like
Nah, that actually confuses it more since Deus Ex is actually a bit of an anomaly in the immersive sim canon and the term dates back to Ultima Underworld (which is also probably the single most influential and important game of the whole philosophy.)

I've taken to calling them Action/adventure Ultima Underworld-like Tactical Immersive Simulations myself. Or AutiSims for short.
 

CryptRat

Arcane
Developer
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
3,625
Probably a bit of a mess but here are some of my thoughts on the topic :

I don't like when RPGs do simulation the immersive sim way, with everything realistic, real-time and seamless, everything about physics engine, your mouse controls your hand, if your only character is slow then the game must be played slow, etc ...

Don't get me wrong, looking for secrets in a seamless environment can be fun and so can be bruteforcing through the engine physics. Watching how heavy is your character walking is funny. Therefore I understand the first sticking point there, looking for the hidden door in the only uncovered part of your 20x20 map is essentially not as fun. But it's a very narrow view, there are plenty of other things and it does not follow CRPG philosophy the way I want it to be.

Which leads to the second sticking point, which is that you probably think like most people that's exactly what RPGs try to be, simply the most realistic games focusing on character scale (not grand strategy) which is absolutely not what I think, I think cRPGs, unlike other genres of video games, are the games which try to replicate the RPGs you were playing on your table, which if unlike other genre is the relevant part is then actually an opposite philosophy. In many ways the limitations you would get on your table are the core thing which should distinguish the games from other kinds of video games. I prefer when I feel like a GM is organising things. I like navigating on a grid, I like fighting on a grid. I like navigating going just as fast as I click, I like combat going as fast as I click. It's not only much cheaper to implement but I like entering a room and being taught of what's there the way a GM will do, with visual hints, rather than everything being simply put into context and all the narrative is emergent, it depends on the context but the former can often be more immersive. I don't need everything to be materialized and especially not with actual simulated physics, Wasteland 1 did interaction with a world in a way that clearly no game with physics did to me. Elemental or material properties, fire propagating, wood catching fire taking a number of in-game turns and electricity propagating through wet materials are fun, but I don't need any actual simulated real-time physics involved, they certainly won't make encounters better to me.

I enjoy introduced encounters which then kind of take place in a vaccum instead of monsters roamming seamless inside the dungeon (kind of because there might be a cool in-between where the enemies from the adjacent room might join the fight if you take too much in-game time, for example), it's fine that passing a skill check trivialises a part once in a while, when you had to actively choose to use a skill or item but also when you did not even had to and it was simply an automatic skill check you critically succeeded at. If your party is slow then the in-game time should simply increase faster. Maybe the party chooses to do a long thing, and the game determines if it's so long it get ambushed or not. The robustness of a wall determines what type of material hurts it and how much your weapon gets damaged, not what type of material hurts it and what in-game time you need to break it.

One more thing regarding combat, so far I don't think any turn-based game I've played went too far into simulating so many things that it becomes boring but being able to apprehend a grid, a discrete world, some numbers is fun. Precise floors and each elevation gap gives you a one point bonus over the guy below is cool, a thing can be wet or not wet, and enemy is charmed or not charmed, I don't need one million percentage half-bonus, I get a bonus or not, I get a penalty or not, it's fine that the computer deals with systems, computations and encounter scales we would not realistically try to deal with with my groups on a table (even simple things, initiative system >>> I Go You Go on a computer, the latter I hate when it's done on a computer, on a table it saves so much time when there are a lot of enemies though) but at some point I want to feel like I'm dialoguing with the game the same way I'm dialoguing with a GM, whether it's abstracted or on a tactical map in which case I want to feel the hex & counters, not that it feels like playing Starcraft.

Finally for a similarity I like everything being made for the player to deal with, and although not as much as in your average traditional cRPG such as Might and Magic, it is ironically given the philosophy still something that is generally more present in Immersive Sims than in other first person single character 3D RPGs. My problem with a game such as Morrowind is the problems you have deal with, not the tools, which are fine, while when I think of the good problems I always think of the same ones like getting the ring from the fighter guild in the town where you're looking for Caius Cossades. It might be a scale thing, immersive sims give you this little one part of the world which is going to be fun to explore for the kind of characters you might play and then create this very precise part in a kind of realistic way trying to put everything together within a good context, while the other ones would present you a massive world which then in a large scale is made realistic enough, getting a view of the entire world is the point and what's there is realistic enough, but then these very precise things about hidden passages and traps you can make use to deal with monsters which are the parts which are going to be the most fun to deal with are sparse and then there'll be plenty of parts which are not interesting to deal with for the player. Encounters are done an in-between way and like already mentioned I prefer the way traditional cRPGs do them.
 
Joined
Feb 7, 2019
Messages
217
They do. If we count a subset of what Ultima Underworld had as immersive sims like light sources, perishable food, object interaction, wear and tear and time passage we are actually already doing well. But the modern take on immersive sims are called survival games / crafting games. They are developed from the start to immerse the player into a hostile interactable world filled with game systems that interacts with each other. Just look a 7 days to die where you need to ensure that natural light can reach your plants.

A indie rpg game that tried to fuse modern survival elements to rpgs is Outward. Also BotW has also incorporated object and weather interaction, things in the dark ninties deemed as immersive simulation aspects while also having free movement with climbing. Outward has survival systems that in an immersive way ties into the gameplay, like for example that dungeons are actually pitch black if you have no light source and it's hard to play if you can't see shit. And light source can be a torch, lantern strapped to backpack, magic ball of light through rune magic or a fire damage buff on weapon which makes the weapon give off light and heat. Heat and cold plays in to the weather system where your character can freeze or get heat stroke which you counteract with cloths, magic, potions, skill perks or food. Weird West also released recently.

So in short they have already for a long time now added immserive sim aspects, aspects that intersects with the more modern popular survival crafting games. It's just that people here have no interest in seeing that, they literally want a System Shock like and are not interested in discussing how the genre immersive sim would evolve with modern hardware.

And of course then we now have BG3 that went out of it's way to incorporate immsim aspects and give the player agency and allowed creative solutions to problems.
 
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mondblut

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Ingrija
Oh you can like Daggerfall all you want, but it ain't an immersive sim. Play the Ultima Underworlds and you'll see the difference.

Daggerfall is an immersive sim of a society, rather than of a corridor and a couple of rooms.

Also, any randomly generated level in any DOS-era roguelike has more objects you can really manipulate than a thousand deus exes combined.
 

luj1

You're all shills
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Because cRPGs should be dominated by abstraction (Wizardry 6, Wasteland 1, Dark Sun) rather than simulation (Witcher 3, Cyberpunk, Baldur's Gate 3)
 

OttoQuitmarck

Educated
Joined
Aug 1, 2023
Messages
433
They do. If we count a subset of what Ultima Underworld had as immersive sims like light sources, perishable food, object interaction, wear and tear and time passage we are actually already doing well. But the modern take on immersive sims are called survival games / crafting games. They are developed from the start to immerse the player into a hostile interactable world filled with game systems that interacts with each other. Just look a 7 days to die where you need to ensure that natural light can reach your plants.

A indie rpg game that tried to fuse modern survival elements to rpgs is Outward. Also BotW has also incorporated object and weather interaction, things in the dark ninties deemed as immersive simulation aspects while also having free movement with climbing. Outward has survival systems that in an immersive way ties into the gameplay, like for example that dungeons are actually pitch black if you have no light source and it's hard to play if you can't see shit. And light source can be a torch, lantern strapped to backpack, magic ball of light through rune magic or a fire damage buff on weapon which makes the weapon give off light and heat. Heat and cold plays in to the weather system where your character can freeze or get heat stroke which you counteract with cloths, magic, potions, skill perks or food. Weird West also released recently.

So in short they have already for a long time now added immserive sim aspects, aspects that intersects with the more modern popular survival crafting games. It's just that people here have no interest in seeing that, they literally want a System Shock like and are not interested in discussing how the genre immersive sim would evolve with modern hardware.

And of course then we now have BG3 that went out of it's way to incorporate immsim aspects and give the player agency and allowed creative solutions to problems.
You make a good point, and while I have enjoyed some survival games recently I am a bit burned out with it personally after I spent way too many hours in the 10s playing minecraft. I really just prefer a more dense type of level design with immersive sim mechanics, survival games as you describe tend to have large procgened or if not procgened, they tend to be empty and uninteresting. Conan: Exiles actually had a world I was more looking for but it did not feel like it had that many immersive sim elements going on aside from climbing.
 

Spukrian

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Messages
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Lost Continent of Mu
They do. If we count a subset of what Ultima Underworld had as immersive sims like light sources, perishable food, object interaction, wear and tear and time passage we are actually already doing well. But the modern take on immersive sims are called survival games / crafting games. They are developed from the start to immerse the player into a hostile interactable world filled with game systems that interacts with each other.
Would you consider Robinson's Requiem and it's sequel Deus as immersive sims?

So in short they have already for a long time now added immserive sim aspects, aspects that intersects with the more modern popular survival crafting games. It's just that people here have no interest in seeing that, they literally want a System Shock like and are not interested in discussing how the genre immersive sim would evolve with modern hardware.
Not only that, people seem to want AAA budget immersive sims which just isn't viable, there aren't enough immersive sim fans to make them financially successful. Then they sigh "why don't they make immersive sims anymore?" despite there being quite a lot of promising indie immersive sims being developed and released.
 

OttoQuitmarck

Educated
Joined
Aug 1, 2023
Messages
433
They do. If we count a subset of what Ultima Underworld had as immersive sims like light sources, perishable food, object interaction, wear and tear and time passage we are actually already doing well. But the modern take on immersive sims are called survival games / crafting games. They are developed from the start to immerse the player into a hostile interactable world filled with game systems that interacts with each other.
Would you consider Robinson's Requiem and it's sequel Deus as immersive sims?

So in short they have already for a long time now added immserive sim aspects, aspects that intersects with the more modern popular survival crafting games. It's just that people here have no interest in seeing that, they literally want a System Shock like and are not interested in discussing how the genre immersive sim would evolve with modern hardware.
Not only that, people seem to want AAA budget immersive sims which just isn't viable, there aren't enough immersive sim fans to make them financially successful. Then they sigh "why don't they make immersive sims anymore?" despite there being quite a lot of promising indie immersive sims being developed and released.
Well the indie imsim scene is quite a recent development though. Like yea there's a couple out now, but way more are still in development. Before say, 2021, there hadn't been a single immersive sim release since 2017 pretty much. So forgive people for still thinking like they live in that phase.

And regardless, immersive sim RPGs are even rarer, except for Baldur's Gate 3 from last year which a lot of people here hated for different reasons. But you can also not tell me that Baldur's Gate 3 *wasn't* financially succesful.
 

Spukrian

Savant
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Messages
829
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Lost Continent of Mu
Well the indie imsim scene is quite a recent development though. Like yea there's a couple out now, but way more are still in development. Before say, 2021, there hadn't been a single immersive sim release since 2017 pretty much. So forgive people for still thinking like they live in that phase.
Yeah, maybe... but my point was more that a lot people dismiss indie immersive sims because of graphics and other budget related stuff.

And regardless, immersive sim RPGs are even rarer, except for Baldur's Gate 3 from last year which a lot of people here hated for different reasons. But you can also not tell me that Baldur's Gate 3 *wasn't* financially succesful.
I'd wager that a lot of the immersive sim qualities in BG3 went over the heads of the majority of BG3 players and I don't think you could say that BG3's success is due to it being an immersive sim. But I could be wrong about this.

Anyway, to be honest, I don't want to talk about BG3 because I haven't actually played it yet.
 
Joined
Feb 7, 2019
Messages
217
They do. If we count a subset of what Ultima Underworld had as immersive sims like light sources, perishable food, object interaction, wear and tear and time passage we are actually already doing well. But the modern take on immersive sims are called survival games / crafting games. They are developed from the start to immerse the player into a hostile interactable world filled with game systems that interacts with each other. Just look a 7 days to die where you need to ensure that natural light can reach your plants.

A indie rpg game that tried to fuse modern survival elements to rpgs is Outward. Also BotW has also incorporated object and weather interaction, things in the dark ninties deemed as immersive simulation aspects while also having free movement with climbing. Outward has survival systems that in an immersive way ties into the gameplay, like for example that dungeons are actually pitch black if you have no light source and it's hard to play if you can't see shit. And light source can be a torch, lantern strapped to backpack, magic ball of light through rune magic or a fire damage buff on weapon which makes the weapon give off light and heat. Heat and cold plays in to the weather system where your character can freeze or get heat stroke which you counteract with cloths, magic, potions, skill perks or food. Weird West also released recently.

So in short they have already for a long time now added immserive sim aspects, aspects that intersects with the more modern popular survival crafting games. It's just that people here have no interest in seeing that, they literally want a System Shock like and are not interested in discussing how the genre immersive sim would evolve with modern hardware.

And of course then we now have BG3 that went out of it's way to incorporate immsim aspects and give the player agency and allowed creative solutions to problems.
You make a good point, and while I have enjoyed some survival games recently I am a bit burned out with it personally after I spent way too many hours in the 10s playing minecraft. I really just prefer a more dense type of level design with immersive sim mechanics, survival games as you describe tend to have large procgened or if not procgened, they tend to be empty and uninteresting. Conan: Exiles actually had a world I was more looking for but it did not feel like it had that many immersive sim elements going on aside from climbing.
Yeah I get that with pure survival games. Personally not a big fan of them, but been looking for a game to get into them with. But I have friends who is really into them so I learn a lot about them. And I do recognize them, unlike many others here. There are a lot of them now days and they are only growing like 7 Days to die, Valheim, Sons of the forest, Rust and No Man Sky. Combined with the life service model of Diablo 4 and Path of Exile 2 there do seems to be a general trend in gaming towards sandbox with good systems.

But recently it seems that rpgs are indeed getting hybrids with modern survival gameplay into them, which is game system that was before known as more immsim, like movement and object&world interactability.
They do. If we count a subset of what Ultima Underworld had as immersive sims like light sources, perishable food, object interaction, wear and tear and time passage we are actually already doing well. But the modern take on immersive sims are called survival games / crafting games. They are developed from the start to immerse the player into a hostile interactable world filled with game systems that interacts with each other.
Would you consider Robinson's Requiem and it's sequel Deus as immersive sims?

So in short they have already for a long time now added immserive sim aspects, aspects that intersects with the more modern popular survival crafting games. It's just that people here have no interest in seeing that, they literally want a System Shock like and are not interested in discussing how the genre immersive sim would evolve with modern hardware.
Not only that, people seem to want AAA budget immersive sims which just isn't viable, there aren't enough immersive sim fans to make them financially successful. Then they sigh "why don't they make immersive sims anymore?" despite there being quite a lot of promising indie immersive sims being developed and released.
I have not played them, but at a quick glance yeah I would say so. Open world immsims ;p, a combination of genres bound to get me targeted by the local System Shock like crowd.

Very true! Like you say there are a lot of immsims being made, Gloomwood, Weird West, Peripeteia, Shadows of doubt, Amnesia: The bunker etc etc. My personal favorite is Peripeteia, I really loved there old demo. But playing Weird West now and am going to play Shadows of doubt as well.

I still have hope we will see more immsim gameplay in modern rpgs, but through companies choosing to add survival games gameplay, but the end result will be more immsim gameplay like in Outward and BotW. Or through dungeon master dialog simulation like BG3.
 
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toro

Arcane
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Apr 14, 2009
Messages
14,791
It seems like only Larian actually bothers to have immersive sim elements, and even then larian doesn't utilize it all that much in most of their games yet.

You'd think it's not that hard to implement being able to destroy walls, move objects, etc. especially if the game is a 2D rpg? Some traditional roguelikes already have various mechanics like this they are just still missing actual immersive sim level design. We'd be doing so well RPGs wise if all these trad roguelike devs instead made proper RPGs...

Am I perhaps missing any RPGs with immersive sim elements?
The moment I saw the thread title I knew that you will get flame for it :)

The codex is not always stable. Right now it goes through a rebel phase were it likes to shit on immersive sims probably cause of infantile edgyness. The reality is that the best games ever are immersive sims combined with role playing elements.

And your thinking is wrong. Immersive sims are very hard to implement. You need several systems which must work at the same time and that's much more difficult to implement than linear rpgs.

Also Larian is a bad example. Barrelmancy is like the simplest form of a simulation although it's probably just a mechanical vestige from DOS games.
 

toro

Arcane
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Messages
14,791
Every immersive sim franchise has died. Why copy mechanics when the genre isn't popular enough to justify their inclusion and the extra work? Better to focus on other areas than appeal to a crowd who aren't big enough to pay your wages.


I don't own a Switch but one of the best games of 2023, on par with BG3, almost a pure immersive sim was GOTY 2023.

edit: So much butthurt. Read Dead Redemption 2 is also an immersive sim (partial).
 
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Halfling Rodeo

Educated
Joined
Dec 14, 2023
Messages
963
Every immersive sim franchise has died. Why copy mechanics when the genre isn't popular enough to justify their inclusion and the extra work? Better to focus on other areas than appeal to a crowd who aren't big enough to pay your wages.


I don't own a Switch but one of the best games of 2023, on par with BG3, almost a pure immersive sim was GOTY 2023.

I tried to play TTOK this Christmas ans found it strictly worse than BOTW was. It's not an immersive sim either. It's an open world action platformer. It has no real interactive objects, just a few interactions. Nothing like Deus ex.
 

OttoQuitmarck

Educated
Joined
Aug 1, 2023
Messages
433
It seems like only Larian actually bothers to have immersive sim elements, and even then larian doesn't utilize it all that much in most of their games yet.

You'd think it's not that hard to implement being able to destroy walls, move objects, etc. especially if the game is a 2D rpg? Some traditional roguelikes already have various mechanics like this they are just still missing actual immersive sim level design. We'd be doing so well RPGs wise if all these trad roguelike devs instead made proper RPGs...

Am I perhaps missing any RPGs with immersive sim elements?
The moment I saw the thread title I knew that you will get flame for it :)

The codex is not always stable. Right now it goes through a rebel phase were it likes to shit on immersive sims probably cause of infantile edgyness. The reality is that the best games ever are immersive sims combined with role playing elements.

And your thinking is wrong. Immersive sims are very hard to implement. You need several systems which must work at the same time and that's much more difficult to implement than linear rpgs.

Also Larian is a bad example. Barrelmancy is like the simplest form of a simulation although it's probably just a mechanical vestige from DOS games.
Well with Larian I was mostly refering to BG3. It has quite a lot more going on now than JUST barrelmancy. Also yea I just ignore the infantile flaming, they don't really add anything interesting to the conversation so who cares.
 

toro

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Messages
14,791
Well with Larian I was mostly refering to BG3. It has quite a lot more going on now than JUST barrelmancy.

Please educate me cause except barrelmancy there isn't much in the game. The mass/weight simulation is a bad joke.
 

Spukrian

Savant
Joined
May 28, 2016
Messages
829
Location
Lost Continent of Mu
I have not played them, but at a quick glance yeah I would say so. Open world immsims ;p, a combination of genres bound to get me targeted by the local System Shock like crowd.
Might I suggest to you the game P.A.M.E.L.A.? It's heavily inspired by System Shock et al but it also has hunger, thirst, sleep and base building in an open world. It's very janky and unfinished but I highly enjoyed my time with it.


Very true! Like you say there are a lot of immsims being made, Gloomwood, Weird West, Peripeteia, Shadows of doubt, Amnesia: The bunker etc etc. My personal favorite is Peripeteia, I really loved there old demo. But playing Weird West now and am going to play Shadows of doubt as well.

I still have hope we will see more immsim gameplay in modern rpgs, but through companies choosing to add survival games gameplay, but the end result will be more immsim gameplay like in Outward and BotW. Or through dungeon master dialog simulation like BG3.
Good video though I've already seen it. You could check out this blog which gets updated semi-regularly, if you haven't already!
 

Nifft Batuff

Prophet
Joined
Nov 14, 2018
Messages
3,577
Immersive sims needs specific implemented games engines. At present, the overwhelming majority of modern indie developers is not able to go beyond a generic game implementation made with Unity or Unreal.
 

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