Why do RPGs, even indie ones, not make use of more immersive sim elements?

[OttoQuitmarck]

It seems like only Larian actually bothers to have immersive sim elements, and even then larian doesn't utilize it all that much in most of their games yet.

You'd think it's not that hard to implement being able to destroy walls, move objects, etc. especially if the game is a 2D rpg? Some traditional roguelikes already have various mechanics like this they are just still missing actual immersive sim level design. We'd be doing so well RPGs wise if all these trad roguelike devs instead made proper RPGs...

Am I perhaps missing any RPGs with immersive sim elements?

 

[Dorateen]

Because role-playing games are not immersive sims.

 

[OttoQuitmarck]

Because role-playing games are not immersive sims.

Some are, like ultima underworld or deus ex.

 

[Butter]

In most cases it's a lack of ambition mixed with a lack of technical ability. It's easier to do generic tactics game #4814.

 

[StrongBelwas]

Your typical indie RPG is a skeleton crew stretched thin doing what they are trying to do as it is.
Your typical mid/AAA RPG these days is trying to play it safe whenever possible and anything uncertain is a red flag.

 

[Late Bloomer]

It seems like only Larian actually bothers to have immersive sim elements

 

[OttoQuitmarck]

Your typical indie RPG is a skeleton crew stretched thin doing what they are trying to do as it is.
Your typical mid/AAA RPG these days is trying to play it safe whenever possible and anything uncertain is a red flag.

Yea but surely you'd think at least one indie RPG would actually try and actively go out of their way to make a very reactive/interactible RPG?

 

[OttoQuitmarck]

In most cases it's a lack of ambition mixed with a lack of technical ability. It's easier to do generic tactics game #4814.

They must really be lacking in actual programmer talent nowadays...

 

[Gargaune]

Your typical indie RPG is a skeleton crew stretched thin doing what they are trying to do as it is.
Your typical mid/AAA RPG these days is trying to play it safe whenever possible and anything uncertain is a red flag.

This is pretty much it. On top of which, "RPG" has increasingly become a synonym for "choose-your-own-adventure game" with gameplay relegated to filler between those loopback plot nodes. We still have developers who care about gameplay mechanics, both in indie and AAA, but the prevailing perception among professionals and consumers seems to be that personalised movie approach, so that's where development focus is. When they try to make their mechanics look t3h xxH4rdC0r3xx, so many devs just pump them full of arbitrary numbers so they can go "look, our roleplaying RPG game is so deep even our numbers have numbers!" but it's a transparent and tedious exercise, an afterthought absent vision and proficiency, see Cyberpunk 2077 for an example.

 

[NecroLord]

"Immersive Sim".
I hate this term.

 

[KD6-3.7]

In the olden days, games were made by programmers and some clever ones at that. Games, like movies, are now made by marketing departments and marketing is deeply cynical and risk shy.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Every immersive sim franchise has died. Why copy mechanics when the genre isn't popular enough to justify their inclusion and the extra work? Better to focus on other areas than appeal to a crowd who aren't big enough to pay your wages.

 

[lukaszek]

soulash

 

[OttoQuitmarck]

soulash

Too bad it's a roguelike. Roguelikes have a lot of cool mechanics like i'd expect from a "2D RPG Immersive sim" but their level design sucks by nature of being procgen.

 

[OttoQuitmarck]

Every immersive sim franchise has died. Why copy mechanics when the genre isn't popular enough to justify their inclusion and the extra work? Better to focus on other areas than appeal to a crowd who aren't big enough to pay your wages.

They haven't really died from lack of success though, have they? It's more that they kept leaking talent. And maybe that's the ultimate problem. It actually requires some talent that most dev studios tend to not have....

 

[OttoQuitmarck]

"Immersive Sim".
I hate this term.

I think it's a good term for the type of design philosophy i'm refering to. I'm not sure what else you'd call it. I don't really like it as a genre defining thing I guess.

 

[Halfling Rodeo]

Every immersive sim franchise has died. Why copy mechanics when the genre isn't popular enough to justify their inclusion and the extra work? Better to focus on other areas than appeal to a crowd who aren't big enough to pay your wages.

They haven't really died from lack of success though, have they? It's more that they kept leaking talent. And maybe that's the ultimate problem. It actually requires some talent that most dev studios tend to not have....

Deus ex Human revolution is the last successful immersive sim any one paid attention to. Mankind divided flopped hard and not only due to microtransactions in a single player game. Prey? Loved by a niche crowd, flopped hard. Death loop? Flopped (also niggers). Dishonoured? Flopped.

What immersive sims are left standing? The good bits are mostly rolled into any generic open world shooter now and there's no reason to go beyond the Ubisoft model in terms of interactivity. It's not going to sell any better and it's a lot of work to add all those small interactions and make stats relevant when you can do a skill tree instead.

 

[agris]

It seems like only Larian actually bothers to have immersive sim elements

Like what?

 

[jaekl]

Yes, the most important thing that modern rpgs should borrow from immersive sims is to have audio logs in every room for you to listen to when you're not in dialogue trees. If gamers get a single moment of respite from people talking their ear off, they might do something problematic such as slay monsters. *shudder*

 

[NecroLord]

It seems like only Larian actually bothers to have immersive sim elements

Like what?

Bear sex.
Life in Baldur's Gate being similar to life in modern day San Francisco.

 

[Lhynn]

Interacting with the world is fun, and rpgs should always strive to give the player more options in how to do it.

 

[Shaki]

Because it takes shitload of work and isn't really important to make a good RPG. Storyfags care about story and CC, combatfags care about combat and character/inventory management. If you already have a good RPG, some immersive sim on top can make it better, but it's probably still not worth the effort, when you can instead start making a sequel or DLCs for your game. Like, would it make sense for Owlcat to spend 1-2 more years on adding immersive sim elements to Kingmaker, rather than making Wrath?


It only makes sense when you go all in on it like Larian, and make something that's more like multiplayer immersive sim set in Americanized Forgotten Realms, than classic RPG. If you go viral and streamers start playing it, it might be a big hit, but it's a risk + at this point you basically stop making RPGs you always wanted, and just whore yourself to normie crowd, which a something lot of indie RPG devs don't like to do.

 

[Lhynn]

Because it takes shitload of work and isn't really important to make a good RPG. Storyfags care about story and CC, combatfags care about combat and character/inventory management. If you already have a good RPG, some immersive sim on top can make it better, but it's probably still not worth the effort, when you can instead start making a sequel or DLCs for your game. Like, would it make sense for Owlcat to spend 1-2 more years on adding immersive sim elements to Kingmaker, rather than making Wrath?


It only makes sense when you go all in on it like Larian, and make something that's more like multiplayer immersive sim set in Americanized Forgotten Realms, than classic RPG. If you go viral and streamers start playing it, it might be a big hit, but it's a risk + at this point you basically stop making RPGs you always wanted, and just whore yourself to normie crowd, which a something lot of indie RPG devs don't like to do.

Wrong, you dont "add immersive sim elements", thats a bad approach, you need to implement them from the ground up, they need to be a part of your game from the start.

 

[lukaszek]

soulash

Too bad it's a roguelike. Roguelikes have a lot of cool mechanics like i'd expect from a "2D RPG Immersive sim" but their level design sucks by nature of being procgen.

handsome fella in here wrote a review. tldr its not procgen

 

[Shaki]

Because it takes shitload of work and isn't really important to make a good RPG. Storyfags care about story and CC, combatfags care about combat and character/inventory management. If you already have a good RPG, some immersive sim on top can make it better, but it's probably still not worth the effort, when you can instead start making a sequel or DLCs for your game. Like, would it make sense for Owlcat to spend 1-2 more years on adding immersive sim elements to Kingmaker, rather than making Wrath?


It only makes sense when you go all in on it like Larian, and make something that's more like multiplayer immersive sim set in Americanized Forgotten Realms, than classic RPG. If you go viral and streamers start playing it, it might be a big hit, but it's a risk + at this point you basically stop making RPGs you always wanted, and just whore yourself to normie crowd, which a something lot of indie RPG devs don't like to do.

Wrong, you dont "add immersive sim elements", thats a bad approach, you need to implement them from the ground up, they need to be a part of your game from the start.

Nah, the best example of a great RPG with great immersive sim elements, would probably be Arcanum, and it's clearly designed first as an RPG, with immersive sim and ability to interact with the world and fuck around in various ways, added later. You could remove all of it, and there would still be one of the greatest RPGs beneath.

Meanwhile, when you design from the ground up as an immersive sim, you end up with souless shit like Bear Gay 3, because you never even tried to make a good RPG. Everything they made was made by asking themselves: Will it make multiple 12-years olds on voice comms laugh? - and it shows.