Which Pathfinder AP should OwlCat adapt next? In your opinion?

[Cryomancer]

It will be shit. Everyone will hate it. Everyone will blame YOU.

What if the naval combat is like UnderRail Expeditions naval combat?

The problem of this "minigames" is that it is dissociated from the core gameplay itself.

Good kingdom management = Crossroad keep in NWN2
Bad kingdom management = Kingmaker

Good naval combat = UnderRail expedition
Bad naval combat = PoE2

The naval combat which I had in S&W(OSR retroclone) was not dissociated from the gameplay.

Shep gets risen from the dead, and rides across space with a harem of assorted waifus (one of which is a literal psychic vampire) to shoot "robotic demon lords" with rifles.

And is shit because the futuristic ME2 weapons makes no sense.

I mean, people are investing a lot of money and resources into making firearms with less muzzle flash, faster projectiles and so on. The idea of using "neon weapons" makes no sense. This is why IMO Fallout New Vegas is the best "shooter RPG". The firearms makes sense. Using a .45-70 Brush gun to blow up the head of a mutant animal >>>> cover shooter with neon toy weapons that can't pierce any type of cover.

Which would be the one taking place when the starship crashed in numeria? Land of the fallen stars?

Iron Gods.

 

[Thonius]

To be fair Reigns of the winter is too wacky to appeal to a broader audience, I for one already kinda hate it.

 

[Reinhardt]

Good kingdom management = Crossroad keep in NWN2

Nigga u wot. You don't rule kangdom in nwn2, not even some city state. Just some shitty fort in the middle of nowhere. And not even "rule", just prepare for enemy assault.

 

[Rusty Eyes]

Good kingdom management = Crossroad keep in NWN2

Nigga u wot. You don't rule kangdom in nwn2, not even some shitty city state. Just some shitty fort in the middle of nowhere. And not even "rule", just prepare for enemy assault.

Talk about a difficult crowd to please...

 

[Cryomancer]

Good kingdom management = Crossroad keep in NWN2

Nigga u wot. You don't rule kangdom in nwn2, not even some city state. Just some shitty fort in the middle of nowhere. And not even "rule", just prepare for enemy assault.

I know, but you got the idea. You talk to the NPC to build a shop and a shop is built. You can recruit someone to it. Is just a small fort management, but IMO way better than anything else made by OwlCat.

To be fair Reigns of the winter is too wacky to appeal to a broader audience, I for one already kinda hate it.

I think that despite people here hating "awesome buttons", OwlCat knows that "awesome stuff" sells, so they will pick the AP with most awesome shit ie - Iron Gods.

 

[deuxhero]

For those worried about the tech, it's Expedition to Barrier Peak (explicitly based on it) as a small country. Tech is still relatively rare, hard to operate, harder to understand, scarse of power/ammo and not just "laser gun goes pew!".

I tough that gunslinger is a very popular class for Iron Gods. But TBH he uses early blackpowder guns, not "blasters", right?

PS : As I've mentioned many times, I wanna skull & Shakles. I had some naval combats in P&P and loved it.

The class is a clusterfuck of design, even without considering PF's lousy gun rules, since it does little well beyond "shoot things", and even that only takes off at mid levels, but by default it uses relatively late blackpowder guns (the illustration seems to be flintlocks, which were current from 1620 to the 1820s when percussion caps took over, then the 1860sish bring in the metallic cartridge and 1886 brings in smokeless powder), it's just that its special abilities will generally work with laser guns as they do black powder.

The problem with S&S's combat is mainly that ships have way too much HP for how much damage can reasonablly be output so its boarding or tedium.

They can also you know, change those like... a lot.

The problem with fundamentally changing an adaptation is you're fundamentally changing it and have to create new stuff when avoiding the need to do that is supposed to be the reason you're adapting something in the first place.

 

[Sacibengala]

They should ditch this crappy setting and work in something for adult human beings.

 

[Cryomancer]

The problem with S&S's combat is mainly that ships have way too much HP for how much damage can reasonablly be output so its boarding or tedium.

That is bad.... Even with cannons, does enemy ships takes too much to go down? Does at least certain spells does increased damage vs ships? Example, If I cast freezing sphere, can I trap a enemy ship? What about tsunami? Can I cast scorching ray and make the enemy ship catch fire?

 

[Rusty Eyes]

For those worried about the tech, it's Expedition to Barrier Peak (explicitly based on it) as a small country. Tech is still relatively rare, hard to operate, harder to understand, scarse of power/ammo and not just "laser gun goes pew!".

I tough that gunslinger is a very popular class for Iron Gods. But TBH he uses early blackpowder guns, not "blasters", right?

PS : As I've mentioned many times, I wanna skull & Shakles. I had some naval combats in P&P and loved it.

The class is a clusterfuck of design, even without considering PF's lousy gun rules, since it does little well beyond "shoot things", and even that only takes off at mid levels, but by default it uses relatively late blackpowder guns (the illustration seems to be flintlocks, which were current from 1620 to the 1820s when percussion caps took over, then the 1860sish bring in the metallic cartridge and 1886 brings in smokeless powder), it's just that its special abilities will generally work with laser guns as they do black powder.

The problem with S&S's combat is mainly that ships have way too much HP for how much damage can reasonablly be output so its boarding or tedium.

They can also you know, change those like... a lot.

The problem with fundamentally changing an adaptation is you're fundamentally changing it and have to create new stuff when avoiding the need to do that is supposed to be the reason you're adapting something in the first place.

Keep in mind that Paizo is the one rewriting their Kingmaker AP to better fit the game. They will do the same with Wrath of the Righteous. Owlcat Games seems to take up the bad APs and making them more palatable. The only one they outright refused to touch is Reign of Winter, and that's due to Russia and its politics being present, as well the campaign itself being bizarre as fuck in general (in a bad way).

 

[Reinhardt]

Even with cannons, does enemy ships takes too much to go down?

"even with cannons" ship combat usually lasted many hours. It was almost never "pew-pew - enemy ship down!" except really rare lucky shots.

 

[deuxhero]

The problem with S&S's combat is mainly that ships have way too much HP for how much damage can reasonablly be output so its boarding or tedium.

That is bad.... Even with cannons, does enemy ships takes too much to go down? Does at least certain spells does increased damage vs ships? Example, If I cast freezing sphere, can I trap a enemy ship? What about tsunami? Can I cast scorching ray and make the enemy ship catch fire?

Ships have 900 HP and operate at great enough distance only "Long" range spells have any remote hope of reaching another ship since they move faster than the maximum range of "close" and "medium" range spells. The spells that totally change ship combat are high level and don't come online till late in the campaign. Still, it's ultimately a balance issue more than fundamental flaw.

 

[Cryomancer]

"even with cannons" ship combat usually lasted many hours. It was almost never "pew-pew - enemy ship down!" except really rare lucky shots.

I know. But historically speaking, people could't conjure tsunamis on the fly... Water elementalists in Pathfinder can create waves at lv 8. At lv 10, the wave is 200 feet high which means 60m tall wave

Ships have 900 HP and operate at great enough distance only "Long" range spells have any remote hope of reaching another ship since they move faster than the maximum range of "close" and "medium" range spells.

900 hp is ludicrous high. A Juvenine black dragon has 105 hp. A maximized empowered freezing sphere can kill a dragon but not sing a ship...

 

[Shadenuat]

Haplo would kill this ship in 1 round.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

For those worried about the tech, it's Expedition to Barrier Peak (explicitly based on it) as a small country. Tech is still relatively rare, hard to operate, harder to understand, scarse of power/ammo and not just "laser gun goes pew!".

I tough that gunslinger is a very popular class for Iron Gods. But TBH he uses early blackpowder guns, not "blasters", right?

PS : As I've mentioned many times, I wanna skull & Shakles. I had some naval combats in P&P and loved it.

The class is a clusterfuck of design, even without considering PF's lousy gun rules, since it does little well beyond "shoot things", and even that only takes off at mid levels, but by default it uses relatively late blackpowder guns (the illustration seems to be flintlocks, which were current from 1620 to the 1820s when percussion caps took over, then the 1860sish bring in the metallic cartridge and 1886 brings in smokeless powder), it's just that its special abilities will generally work with laser guns as they do black powder.

The problem with S&S's combat is mainly that ships have way too much HP for how much damage can reasonablly be output so its boarding or tedium.

They can also you know, change those like... a lot.

The problem with fundamentally changing an adaptation is you're fundamentally changing it and have to create new stuff when avoiding the need to do that is supposed to be the reason you're adapting something in the first place.

Keep in mind that Paizo is the one rewriting their Kingmaker AP to better fit the game. They will do the same with Wrath of the Righteous. Owlcat Games seems to take up the bad APs and making them more palatable. The only one they outright refused to touch is Reign of Winter, and that's due to Russia and its politics being present, as well the campaign itself being bizarre as fuck in general (in a bad way).

I’ve seen people promoting this narrative, but I have no idea where it came from; before Owlcat adapted it Kingmaker was generally regarded as one of the best APs by the PF community. You’re correct that Wrath was commonly considered one of the worst though, mostly due to alignment railroading and Mythic levels being a total clusterfuck.

 

[Thonius]

"even with cannons" ship combat usually lasted many hours. It was almost never "pew-pew - enemy ship down!" except really rare lucky shots.

I know. But historically speaking, people could't conjure tsunamis on the fly... Water elementalists in Pathfinder can create waves at lv 8. At lv 10, the wave is 200 feet high which means 60m tall wave

Ships have 900 HP and operate at great enough distance only "Long" range spells have any remote hope of reaching another ship since they move faster than the maximum range of "close" and "medium" range spells.

900 hp is ludicrous high. A Juvenine black dragon has 105 hp. A maximized empowered freezing sphere can kill a dragon but not sing a ship...

Even old ships were gyga big and well duh quite sturdy. And the general rule is that you want to burn wood not freeze it.

 

[Serus]

One that has the least potential writing of any sort. Which means the least wordy one. That includes tranny and other degenerate stuff but is NOT limited to it. Just give me a game without hundreds of pages a bad writing (and only token trannies if possible).

 

[Cryomancer]

And the general rule is that you want to burn wood not freeze it.

The problem is burning your loot too. Or if you by mistake put fire in your own ship...

 

[Reinhardt]

Victor being Victor. "I want cool new naval battle mechanic but i want to be able oneshot pew-pew ships with single spell!" WHY you want this mechanic then if your first wish even before game announced is to completely bypass it? I can already bet you will play first chapter without exp sharing to be able to sink ships in first round starting from chapter 2. You don't want "naval battles", you want VICTORY AT SEA! button.

 

[Fedora Master]

They should ditch this crappy setting and work in something for adult human beings.

These people genuinely think PF tackles important social issues.

 

[Cryomancer]

"I want cool new naval battle mechanic but i want to be able oneshot pew-pew ships with single spell!" WHY you want this mechanic then if your first wish even before game announced is to completely bypass it? I can already bet you will play first chapter without exp sharing to be able to sink ships in first round starting from chapter 2. You don't want "naval battles", you want VICTORY AT SEA! button.

No, As I've said, I would wanna a naval battle akin to UnderRail expedition lethality. I don't wanna ships to be like Gargoyles in WoTR crusade. You know, there is a sweetspot between nuking a ship in the first round and this :

And my fear is that multiple times more hp than a dragon will lead to ships becoming the "new gargoyles". Also, S&S is not a high level module. Even without XP share, will gonna take a lot of time to get spells like Freezing sphere, chain lightning and etc. Nor is in a place with a lot of magical items. So, don't expect to find greater rods of quicken metamagic like you can find in kingmaker.

About XP share, it doesn't give a huge level increase. Just a bit. I played ch 1 and most of ch 2 without it and while most people was doing Drezen's siege at lv 9, I was at lv 11. That is not a huge power increase. Just a bit.

 

[Lagole Gon]

I have no idea, I don't know shit about pathfinder.
I just want a an adventure where you kill a troll. And you explore woods. And there's a wizard in a pointy hat, saying words like "henceforth" and "whence", possibly even "forsooth".

 

[Tacgnol]

There is one particular section of Strange Aeons which would cause a magnificent dilemma for a paladin PC (that sadly wouldn't be adapted as well I imagine).

In a city in the dream lands during Book 3, you are forced to acquire a necklace from a very evil Night Hag ambassador who is heavily involved in city politics. You can either do a deal with the Night Hag (In which she betrays you and gives you a fake necklace), or work with the local criminal underworld to assassinate her.

The ambassador has a small army of powerful bodyguards and is fairly powerful herself, so just marching up to her to kill her would end very badly.

Both sides of this are completely lousy. Our party who was mostly neutral ended up siding with the assassins as they had a good plan for isolating the ambassador from her bodyguards, they also surprisingly kept their word and allowed us to get what we needed.

I honestly don't know how a paladin would deal with that situation. I guess they might consider the criminals to be the lesser evil? Even so it wouldn't sit well with them I imagine.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I honestly don't know how a paladin would deal with that situation. I guess they might consider the criminals to be the lesser evil? Even so it wouldn't sit well with them I imagine.

Probably take on both. I don't see Paladins being able to square away having to deal with thieves.

 

[Tacgnol]

I honestly don't know how a paladin would deal with that situation. I guess they might consider the criminals to be the lesser evil? Even so it wouldn't sit well with them I imagine.

Probably take on both. I don't see Paladins being able to square away having to deal with thieves.

Also the criminal underworld are heavily involved in drug and slave trade, so are arguably as awful as the Night Hag (who also is heavily involved in local slave trade iirc).

 

[Nortar]

There is one particular section of Strange Aeons which would cause a magnificent dilemma for a paladin PC (that sadly wouldn't be adapted as well I imagine).

In a city in the dream lands during Book 3, you are forced to acquire a necklace from a very evil Night Hag ambassador who is heavily involved in city politics. You can either do a deal with the Night Hag (In which she betrays you and gives you a fake necklace), or work with the local criminal underworld to assassinate her.

The ambassador has a small army of powerful bodyguards and is fairly powerful herself, so just marching up to her to kill her would end very badly.

Both sides of this are completely lousy. Our party who was mostly neutral ended up siding with the assassins as they had a good plan for isolating the ambassador from her bodyguards, they also surprisingly kept their word and allowed us to get what we needed.

I honestly don't know how a paladin would deal with that situation. I guess they might consider the criminals to be the lesser evil? Even so it wouldn't sit well with them I imagine.

Paladin is a pretty clumsy and rigid class to play in a cloak and dagger story with political intrigues and stuff.
It's like pouring wine in boxing gloves.

In my point of view a classic paladin, when facing an evil figure embedded deep within the political structure,
would first try to expose it in a lawful way - appealing to the court, higher authorities and all that. Not just scheming to asassinate the said figure, or let alone make deals with it. If the lawful way won't work or it's outright impossible than it's up to a direct challenge or even a declaration of war.

Although, with that being said, I don't think that paladins should always be lawful stupid,
and I can imagine a situation in which a paladin could work together with criminals/evildoers to reach common goals, as long as they don't perform evil acts during this collaboration.
This also opens options for some redemption arcs for NPCs, if DM/players are interested in that kind of stories.