What do you think about AoD?

[empi]

between bad and meh

 

[Marsal]

l3loodAngel is a marvelous troll. Such simplicity, such elegance... Bravo, sir! Bravo!

 

[Vault Dweller]

So, while writing this, for demonstration purposes, I decided to start a new game using a Mercenary. I used 5 points on Axe, Block, Persuasion and Streetwise.

First fight with the assassin (after buying a shield)... died 7 times, was victorious 2. Is this how it is supposed to go?
Yeah I know you're given the option to let him go, but... you're a mercenary. Are you supposed to pussy out from all combat encounters?

Well...

"You make a living providing ‘protection services’ to the inn’s patron. When you were younger and didn’t know any better, you spent you days drinking and fighting. Your dedication to the craft was noticed and you were offered a job at the inn. Now, you were paid to break heads when the locals were getting too drunk and out of control, and the drinks were on the house."

You are a local brawler, not a hard man who doesn't take shit from nobody. In other words, you are straight out of the chargen. Greener than grass and all that.

Second, investing in 4 skills in chargen is spreading your points too thin. Start with 2 skills, add more skills when you are a bit tougher.

Not sure if you've seen this thread, but just in case:
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=2683.0\

OP: "The Mercenary vignette. The combat options are pretty much unattainable with AP 8 characters..."

me: "Tried it 5 min ago. Didn't touch the stats (default values):

character 1 - sword 40, the rest in dodge, didn't buy anything, used power attacks (gladius). THC was 50% and that's how it felt. Hit n miss. Killed the assassin when my health was at 12 points.

character 2 - sword 40, the rest in block, bought a saber, used normal attacks. I died when the assassin was "almost dead".

character 3 - sword 45, the rest in CS, didn't buy anything. Landed a good critical - 14 points of damage, then had a bad streak. Killed the assassin when I had 3 hit points left.
...

Here is another attempt. I missed 7 out of 10, plus the fucker scored a critical and disarmed me 3 times. Still, you don't fuck with power attacks.

It's a painfully simple approach and I can't see how it can fail. Sure, bad rolls can happen, but anyone should be able to win that fight at least 3 out of 5."

And this thread:
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,2694.0.html

poster: "How are players supposed to know that a combat failure is because they need higher skills? How do they know it's not a poor distribution of stats? How do they know it's not the choice of weapon, of which there are 25+? How do they know it's not their attack choices, which vary subtly between weapons?"

me: Here is how I see it (at leas that's how I play games):

- make a balanced build first, enter combat, see what happens.
- if almost beat your opponents (i.e. if you were very close), try again
- if not even close, change stats - see what you can do without. If a charismatic fighter can't win a fight, see if an ugly bastard can't. If he can't, see if a dumb and ugly fighter can.
- simultaneously, start decreasing skills' spread. Start with a balanced distribution, see where it gets you. If nowhere, start decreasing. It's a trial-n-error style approach, but in 3 attempts you should have a very good idea of where you stand and what's required to beat the fight you're stuck on it.
- so, eventually you should lock down the stats and skills and move to weapons and attack types.

If it sounds too complicated, it really isn't.

Take these thugs, for example. I went with the OP's stats - 8,8,8,6,5,5, which are reasonable "new player" stats. Start combat, observe THC. Change attack types, observe THC. Make some simple conclusions (I need more THC). Either go back and trade 1 points in STR and CON for 2 points in PER, or pay attention to different weapon stats, or both. That's all you have to do."

About attack modes... yeah, the problem for me was that for most encounters (right from the start) the probability to hit was so low, that I was forced to go for fast attack almost every time, which then produced little to no damage on armored opponents.

If THC is too low, make a different character. That's the main reason you start the game with a tough fight - to see what works (for you) and what doesn't. Overall, THC is affected by stats (PER can easily increase it), skills, weapon type, attack type, helmet, and shield.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Is it out? I wrote about some flaws, you ignored it. So why do you expect you can see better in this thread?

It may be hard for you to swallow but this thread isn't about what *you* think about the game.

Have you seen Krater? It might be one of programs that is competing with that.

Krater? A game that "combines the combat mechanics of action-rpgs with the top-down view of the classic old-school RPG and RTS games"? In which ways does it compete with AoD?

 

[Marsal]

Vault Dweller For the love of all that is holy, STOP! Please, just STOP!

Combat is too hard! "It's my game, fuck you!"
Combat isn't tactical enough! "It's my game, fuck you!"
I want to have a party! "It's my game, fuck you!"
CON should give AP! "It's my game, fuck you!"
GUI is shit! "It's my game, fuck you!"
Hybrid characters are weaksauce! "It's my game, fuck you!"


I for one, don't really like the combat and quite a few other things. I voted "meh" and I... "It's my game, fuck you!"

You will accomplish nothing by same, endless, discussions about things that you can't or won't change and I would..."It's my game, fuck you!"


Now go and finish YOUR FUCKING GAME!

 

[Grimlorn]

me: Here is how I see it (at leas that's how I play games):

- make a balanced build first, enter combat, see what happens.
- if almost beat your opponents (i.e. if you were very close), try again
- if not even close, change stats - see what you can do without. If a charismatic fighter can't win a fight, see if an ugly bastard can't. If he can't, see if a dumb and ugly fighter can.
- simultaneously, start decreasing skills' spread. Start with a balanced distribution, see where it gets you. If nowhere, start decreasing. It's a trial-n-error style approach, but in 3 attempts you should have a very good idea of where you stand and what's required to beat the fight you're stuck on it.
- so, eventually you should lock down the stats and skills and move to weapons and attack types.

Doesn't this lead to a lot of save scumming and min/maxing type playing? I can kind of understand people save scumming for skill checks, but doing it for combat where you just save your stats until you fail at combat and then try to spend the minimum to beat that combat encounter. It's like rolling a 20 sided die until you get a 20. Seems more tedious than fun. Maybe it's just not my thing.

I'm curious about what you think of nets? Do you think people should save scum a battle if there is a 30-50% chance to hit with a net disabling an enemy? What happens if the net misses? Do you think they should just reload until it works? What do you do when you play RPGs? Do you just never use the attack or do you reload until it hits giving you the advantage of using the risky attack without ever having invested in it?

Do you think combat should be so tough you can't afford to waste a turn missing a risky attack that has a chance of disabling an enemy? Why ever use these attacks if you don't have them above 70% to hit (the sweet spot for hitting enemies)

 

[Vault Dweller]

Vault Dweller For the love of all that is holy, STOP! Please, just STOP!

Combat is too hard! "It's my game, fuck you!"
Combat isn't tactical enough! "It's my game, fuck you!"
I want to have a party! "It's my game, fuck you!"
CON should give AP! "It's my game, fuck you!"
GUI is shit! "It's my game, fuck you!"
Hybrid characters are weaksauce! "It's my game, fuck you!"

As of opposite to what exactly?

Trying to please everyone? Ignoring people who like the game and chasing people who don't in some hope that if I make enough changes, they will finally like the game?

I like the difficulty. I think that combat is fairly tactical. Quite a few people seem to think so too - check the quotes (taken from the Codex) on our front page. But some people disagree. What an unexpected twist of events. All my years on the Codex have not prepared me for this.

You know that we listened to the feedback and made a number of tweaks in R2. You've even brofisted some of my posts on the topic. So why bitching about it now?

 

[SerratedBiz]

It seems a little counterproductive to ask for feedback then start arguing with those who do.

Unless it isn't really a "what did you think of AoD" thread, and more of a "let's discuss AoD" one.

 

[Marsal]

As of opposite to what exactly?

Trying to please everyone? Ignoring people who like the game and chasing people who don't in some hope that if I make enough changes, they will finally like the game?

I like the difficulty. I think that combat is fairly tactical. Quite a few people seem to think so too - check the quotes (taken from the Codex) on our front page. But some people disagree. What an unexpected twist of events. All my years on the Codex have not prepared me for this.

You know that we listened to the feedback and made a number of tweaks in R2. You've even brofisted some of my posts on the topic. So why bitching about it now?

You were supposed to reply with: "It's my game, fuck you!" and not post again on the Codex until AoD is finished. I was trying to help you by giving you advice, but I now realize the magnitude of my folly. Sorry for interruption, don't mind me. Carry on!

 

[Vault Dweller]

Doesn't this lead to a lot of save scumming and min/maxing type playing?

Not really. I'm talking about creating your character and testing a few real fights, not playing the entire game in this fashion.

I'm curious about what you think of nets?

They are very useful and can make quite a difference. Some beta testers relied on them a lot and did much better than I expected.

Do you think people should save scum a battle if there is a 30-50% chance to hit with a net disabling an enemy? What happens if the net misses?

Then you miss, plain and simple. I think that 30-50% chance is decent, considering the benefits. I'm playing Silent Storm: Sentinels now. Hard difficulty (no saving in combat). Many attacks are 35-60% chance. If all attacks were 85+, the game wouldn't be as interesting. Maybe it's just me though.

Do you think they should just reload until it works? What do you do when you play RPGs? Do you just never use the attack or do you reload until it hits giving you the advantage of using the risky attack without ever having invested in it?

I prefer not to reload. I use different attacks and think that 30-50% chance (one in three or 50/50) is fairly decent. If I miss/fail, so be it.

Do you think combat should be so tough you can't afford to waste a turn missing a risky attack that has a chance of disabling an enemy?

I think that combat should be hard enough to push you to take risks to gain advantage.

 

[Helton]

It seems a little counterproductive to ask for feedback then start arguing with those who do.

Unless it isn't really a "what did you think of AoD" thread, and more of a "let's discuss AoD" one.

Seems the spirit of this place has seriously changed. Do you really believe "feedback" is just listening, drool dripping down your lip, while you nod at gibberish because you don't want to offend people's soft skinned sensibilities? You can find beautiful little flowers willing to oblige that kind of feedback anywhere on the net. You come to the Dex looking for "feedback" that can hold up to a little scrutiny. Robust criticism. You poke it with a stick and it gets stronger. And you leave with a legitimately better way of doing things than you came in with. Not a bunch of raw, untested, bullshit and a stanky chin. At least, that's how we used to roll.

 

[Grunker]

Seems the spirit of this place has seriously changed.

yeah man it's going down the toilet

 

[Stereotypical Villain]

For as long as we've waited... well, yeah, not enough good.

I'd rather wait another 1000+ years for Grimoire.

 

[Jasede]

I thought the combat was a bit too hard.

 

[Johannes]

I'm curious about what you think of nets?

They are very useful and can make quite a difference. Some beta testers relied on them a lot and did much better than I expected.

Do you think people should save scum a battle if there is a 30-50% chance to hit with a net disabling an enemy? What happens if the net misses?

Then you miss, plain and simple. I think that 30-50% chance is decent, considering the benefits. I'm playing Silent Storm: Sentinels now. Hard difficulty (no saving in combat). Many attacks are 35-60% chance. If all attacks were 85+, the game wouldn't be as interesting. Maybe it's just me though.

It's very different in that game though. You've got a party so more shots during a turn and during an engagement total, so randomity evens out more in the long run. Another thing is that you can actually maneuver for a better THC, something not possible in AoD.

Do you think they should just reload until it works? What do you do when you play RPGs? Do you just never use the attack or do you reload until it hits giving you the advantage of using the risky attack without ever having invested in it?

I prefer not to reload. I use different attacks and think that 30-50% chance (one in three or 50/50) is fairly decent. If I miss/fail, so be it.

Do you think combat should be so tough you can't afford to waste a turn missing a risky attack that has a chance of disabling an enemy?

I think that combat should be hard enough to push you to take risks to gain advantage.

And if you lose the combat after failing that net throw, what will you do? Retry? If it's a hard enough fight that you actually want to waste a net on it, you'll probably be reloading until it hits regardless if you reload straight away or only after death.

 

[Menckenstein]

Vault Dweller did you give any consideration to adding something like pancratium into the game?

 

[hiver]

It seems a little counterproductive to ask for feedback then start arguing with those who do.

Thats not arguing at all.
Thats explaining what the real deal is to people who dont get it and post bullshit.

But it seems it has become a new way to accuse of someone of "arguing" and telling people "Thats my game , fuck you!"
- which was marshal epic contribution to the thread, - if the developer doesnt automatically agree with every stupid fucking thing thrown in.

A bit of emotional blackmailing, eh?

As for the first assassin here is how my attempt went and what i changed:
I actually took a lighter, less protective armor, which helped a lot - is that in case of opting for dodge defense?

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/aod-public-beta-release-2-is-out.71812/

 

[Infinitron]

It's very different in that game though. You've got a party so more shots during a turn and during an engagement total, so randomity evens out more in the long run.

QFT

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Without throwing, my THC with nets never got above 55%. Are you saying with a straight face that the correct play is for the player to take his chances with his 55% attack?

Believe it or not, but throwing nets even at 55% THC can make a mighty difference. Sure, you will only hit like 50% of the time, but IF you hit the tide of the fight might be turning. Consider this example. You can sneak into the compound, make a few CS checks for dialogue-killing a few dudes and then you will face one of Antida's Centurions. For my character, a pretty much unwinnable fight. Yet I've bested him, by throwing a net. When it hit my THC suddenly made a big leap upwards. My THC was now so good that I could use an Aimed Strike to the head, which hit him critically and caused him to get knocked down. I get a free round of attacking (again trying aimed head), then in the next round I'm throwing a net again , rinse and repeat. Using Aimed strikes to the head + high CS can be pretty devastating even to very powerful opponents. The difficulty comes with the hefty to hit penalties of aimed strikes. Webbing the enemy helps with that. The bottom line is, *only* having 55% THC with nets doesn't mean using them won't help you winning those extremely difficult fights.

 

[Vault Dweller]

And if you lose the combat after failing that net throw, what will you do? Retry? If it's a hard enough fight that you actually want to waste a net on it, you'll probably be reloading until it hits regardless if you reload straight away or only after death.

You don't need to reload. A good throw will give you some advantage, but won't kill your enemies for you. I don't reload after missing several attacks in a row or taking a critical or bad wound, so I'm not sure I even understand what you're talking about. Throwing a net and failing won't doom you, that's for sure.

Vault Dweller did you give any consideration to adding something like pancratium into the game?

I don't think that trying to wrestle a axeman makes a lot of sense, but in the end it's about resources - animations, items, etc. If we have time (and money), I'd rather add 'Divine' weapon class, which was planned originally but was put on hold because the animator was overloaded.

 

[Grunker]

IF you hit the tide of the fight might be turning.

And if I don't the turn is wasted, and a reload is incoming. Is that good combat to you? Relying on a 55% chance to win you the day?

 

[Vault Dweller]

It's very different in that game though. You've got a party so more shots during a turn and during an engagement total, so randomity evens out more in the long run.

QFT

I didn't want to get into it, but since it was QFT'ed...

It's not uncommon in SS to spread your forces, to solo (temporarily or permanently) with a scout, or to turn a corner, spot an enemy, and face him without any backup. If you have 40-50% chance you know you have a very good chance.

 

[Emily]

IF you hit the tide of the fight might be turning.

And if I don't the turn is wasted, and a reload is incoming. Is that good combat to you? Relying on a 55% chance to win you the day?

why would you save scum...?
If you do it it is your own choice. But no game if fun when save scuming.

 

[Menckenstein]

Vault Dweller did you give any consideration to adding something like pancratium into the game?

I don't think that trying to wrestle a axeman makes a lot of sense, but in the end it's about resources - animations, items, etc. If we have time (and money), I'd rather add 'Divine' weapon class, which was planned originally but was put on hold because the animator was overloaded.

I was thinking as a secondary combat skill to compliment 1H weaponry but maybe I'm watching too many Spartacus.

 

[Vault Dweller]

IF you hit the tide of the fight might be turning.

And if I don't the turn is wasted, and a reload is incoming. Is that good combat to you? Relying on a 55% chance to win you the day?

If your chance is 90%, where is the excitement? I always prefer early levels' combat in RPGs because nothing is guaranteed yet and your victory isn't assured. Combat becomes boring (for me) the moment you become a demigod and start steamrolling over your enemies.