What do you like/dislike about roguelikes

[FinalSonicX]

I'm a huge fan of roguelikes but there are some major flaws for most of them in my eyes.

Pros:
+ every game is a new experience, infinite re-playability
+ the good ones have amazing level generators that make exploration fun and give a sense of discovery to the player for walking around seeing new places and monsters
+ fun magic items (potions and scrolls especially) with a variety of effects that sometimes need to be determined through use
+ fairly tactical gameplay
+ high level of difficulty gives a sense of accomplishment when milestones are reached
+ usually lots of race and class combinations
+ turn-based
+ permadeath makes things exciting, but rolling characters isn't a chore
+ each death is usually amusing and not rage-inducing
+ as a player my choices feel like they mean something
+ some roguelikes have some nice graphics

Cons:
- controlling only one character isn't as exciting as controlling a party (playing a single player healer-type class seems strange)
- ASCII graphics are often a little confusing to look at and quite frankly not very engaging (there are some notable examples where some thought and design went into the ASCII visuals)
- Some roguelikes have incredibly high death rates, mostly due to stupid causes one could not have foreseen without reading spoilers. High death rates are fine but I prefer them to be caused generally by player error.
- lack of any context for the world or the quest (lack of flavor. I don't need much of a story but a bit of style would be nice)
- sometimes the balance is completely off so that basically the different race and class combos are like difficulty modes
- the lack of shops in some of them make me wonder why I'm collecting gold or jewels or non-essential magic items
- some roguelikes haven't balanced the concept of the out-of-depth monster so you end up getting insta-killed by some extremely high level unique monster (like Sigmund on level 2 as most classes in Dungeon Crawl)
- this one is Crawl specific but the skill system IMO is terrible and confusing and really unwieldy. I'd be happier with advancement strictly determined by race/class/attributes. Maybe a point could be allocated according to my choice every couple of levels, but the system is too confusing for me to bother with.
- the focus on religion in some of them is annoying and basically forces you to game the system to win
- the settings are usually as generic as possible to fit in almost every monster class and race ever.
- some roguelikes have a bunch of procedurally generated filler content that serves no purpose, roguelikes with overland maps are particularly bad at this.
- Often the user interface is terrible and confusing (Incursion still confuses me to this day)
- The rulesets used aren't explained in simple terms usually so that I can understand how to build my character (in roguelikes in which character building is a factor)

All of this said, Crawl is my favorite roguelike followed by incursion. Crawl is great fun with some decent graphics and plenty of exploration and fun magic involved. The dungeon levels branch so even with the same race/class/items etc. choosing a different branch mixes things up a whole lot. There's an incredible sense of discovery in most roguelikes, and crawl is no different. Incursion is one of the roguelikes I love even though I have difficulty playing it. I love D&D 3.5 so the rules make sense and I understand how to build a character, but unfortunately there's a ton of repeated content (it's too predictable), the UI is confusing as hell, and there are a few insta-death moments that serve no purpose other than to force a restart. Zangband is a really good roguelike if you're looking for arcade fun.

Some roguelikes I wish I could get into include 3059 and Nethack. Nethack is ok and a lot of people love it but it bothers me how much you need to cheat in order to progress meaningfully in the game. Also, it's incredibly bland in terms of flavor and setting. Not even a hint of something fresh. 3059 is one of those games that seems really good and I want to get into it because I've wanted to play a scifi space-faring roguelike forever now but with the graphics and the UI and the confusing rules I just can't get into it each time I try to pick it up.

 

[laclongquan]

If you want to make a game, solve the graphic problems first. Find some guy to do them, whatever.

I simply refuse to look at a game with ASCII graphic not integrated into main game. Yeah, I am looking at you, Dwarf Faggots.

No need for fancy stuffs, mind. I can tolerate the level of Unreal World, so the bar is low.

 

[DakaSha]

+ the good ones have amazing level generators that make exploration fun and give a sense of discovery to the player for walking around seeing new places and monsters .

Yes im being a faggot but my dungeon generator is honestly already better then most if not all of the RL ones ive seen.. Yes im bragging but this is also just plain due to the fact that most of them have absolute shit generators IMO

Of course they actually have finished games.. I guess i cant say anything until im at that point

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Even if a design is flawed in your mind, "exploiting" these flaws is obviously the right way to play, ie. the way a smart player will pick.

Only if he finds the practice fun. It's not a job, you don't necessarily want to take shortcuts that mess with the intended game experience.

As for me, I suck even at Chocobo's Mystery Dungeon so my opinion is worth shit, but permadeath is both the coolest thing (tension) and the worst (losing all your progress because of a stupid mistake - "hurr durr don't make mistakes next time, then" doen't cut it because I don't have autistic superpowers that keep me from ever fucking something up)

 

[DakaSha]

Even if a design is flawed in your mind, "exploiting" these flaws is obviously the right way to play, ie. the way a smart player will pick.

Only if he find the practice fun. It's not job, you don't necessarily want to take shortcuts.

As for me, I suck even at Chocobo's Mystery Dungeon so my opinion is worth shit, but permadeath is both the coolest thing (tension) and the worst (losing all your progress because of a stupid mistake - "hurr durr don't make mistakes next time, then" doen't cut it because I don't have autistic superpowers that keep me from ever fucking something up)

i loled xD

 

[FinalSonicX]

Yes im being a faggot but my dungeon generator is honestly already better then most if not all of the RL ones ive seen.. Yes im bragging but this is also just plain due to the fact that most of them have absolute shit generators IMO

I agree, especially the ones that basically just carve out rectangles and connect them with random corridors with the occasional 90 degree turn. Do you happen to have any screenshots or other output of the levels generated? I'd really like to see them.

 

[DakaSha]

I'm currently adding content so it doesnt compile right now but here are some older pics to show "where im headed". Yes they are done on Windows phone..

This was the first version of the engine which did alot of what most can do already
http://img831.imageshack.us/i/171672172 ... 61641.jpg/

The below pics just showcase single features

Non randomly placed rooms linked with corridors:
http://img135.imageshack.us/i/easylink.png/

Same Room setup with different method of linking, both (and more)can be used
http://img850.imageshack.us/i/forcedcorridors.png/

This shows the first version of some procedurally generated rooms
http://img812.imageshack.us/f/capturelo.png/

Right now im working on doing more interesting corridor algorithms like making them look like caverns or simply being thicker.

It doesnt look to special but there is a bit more going on in the background. All rooms and corridors are saved as single entites so if used in a game you can manipulate them on a room to room bases for instance.. Or use AI designed around rooms/corridors.

All tiles 'know' whether they are in a corner or not (for placing turrets etc) among some other things

 

[FinalSonicX]

That's pretty cool, may I ask why you're developing on the Windows Phone? Are you intending to release a windows phone roguelike or is it just for fun? My girlfriend has a windows phone and it's pretty slick, I'll probably get one whenever I have money to burn.

Are you considering making irregular shapes rooms? Those are some of the best, even if they're simple shapes like circles. Maybe try mixing in some cavernous elements using cellular automata? Widening or distinguishing corridors is a very good idea. It looks like your dungeons will be very clustered which is pretty different from most roguelikes I've played which spread out their rooms. What was the motivations behind that? Also, why do tiles need to know if they're a corner, if you could figure that out programmatically? Or did I misinterpret you and they don't store that kind of information?

I like that you store each room and corridor as a separate entity, that's incredibly useful for level generation if someone wanted to have themed rooms, special descriptions, conditions, etc. I'm a coder too planning out my own roguelike and I'm going to do a similar thing. That way, whole dungeon levels can follow a basic theme/environment and the rooms can feel like distinct areas with some kind of purpose (goblin kitchen, dog kennels, etc.) One thing I'm considering experimenting with is developing the dungeon using genetic algorithms, though I'm not 100% certain what implementation would look like so I dunno if it's ever going to happen

 

[DakaSha]

That's pretty cool, may I ask why you're developing on the Windows Phone? Are you intending to release a windows phone roguelike or is it just for fun? My girlfriend has a windows phone and it's pretty slick, I'll probably get one whenever I have money to burn.

I *plan* to make a phone RL yes.. I know that a lot of people here will find that *ehem* 'noteworthy' but meh.. The library itself is of course usable with any kind of .Net platform

Are you considering making irregular shapes rooms? Those are some of the best, even if they're simple shapes like circles. Maybe try mixing in some cavernous elements using cellular automata? Widening or distinguishing corridors is a very good idea.

There is a pic of procedurally generated rooms
The way i have implemented it will allow for completely random rooms or 'types' which use a specific algorithm ("round", cross etc)

It looks like your dungeons will be very clustered which is pretty different from most roguelikes I've played which spread out their rooms. What was the motivations behind that?

This is completely optional. they can be spread out across hundreds of tiles if you wish The motivation here is simply that my 'planned' game will (possibly) only have levels consisting of 32x32 cells. Its partly a design decision (i have reasons ) and partly just because of the platform. It will also fit with the setting which would be Sci-Fi, space module crap

Also, why do tiles need to know if they're a corner, if you could figure that out programmatically? Or did I misinterpret you and they don't store that kind of information?

No i store the information in a cell so that when designing a game its already known. It may also very well come in handy for the actual generation process. Any kind of geometrical information is super important. all cells that need it also have an Alignment for instance (corridor cells and doors.. I just havnt drawn the doors correctly in my pics )

I like that you store each room and corridor as a separate entity, that's incredibly useful for level generation if someone wanted to have themed rooms, special descriptions, conditions, etc.

Yeah thats the plan. Also the different base types of cells are stored as well (walls, floors, Doors).. that way a trigger could destroy all walls or something

One thing I'm considering experimenting with is developing the dungeon using genetic algorithms, though I'm not 100% certain what implementation would look like so I dunno if it's ever going to happen

thats how this one is done.. its completely modular


Something im pretty proud of but i cant really show with the pics i have is how i 'grow' rooms from a seed cell.. it allows for them to be paced extremely well even proceduarly and to wrap around corners etc.. kinda hard to explain i guess

 

[FinalSonicX]

Oh I just saw the picture with the procedurally generated rooms, my bad haha.

The clustering makes sense given the setting and platform, I'm sure it will make gameplay more intense too.

Perhaps I don't understand the details of your design so storing corner cells doesn't make much sense to me but I'm sure you have reasons (given that apparently you want to store a large data set for level generation and display with alignment and things). It's interesting that you store the types so that you can knock down walls and things, I think that's brilliant.

I'm impressed that you did all that using genetic algorithms. How many generations did it take and with what kind of starting population did you use to achieve these kinds of results? I think I also understand what you mean by "growing" rooms with seeds. That's very cool.

 

[DakaSha]

Oh I just saw the picture with the procedurally generated rooms, my bad haha.

The clustering makes sense given the setting and platform, I'm sure it will make gameplay more intense too.

Perhaps I don't understand the details of your design so storing corner cells doesn't make much sense to me but I'm sure you have reasons (given that apparently you want to store a large data set for level generation and display with alignment and things). It's interesting that you store the types so that you can knock down walls and things, I think that's brilliant.

I'm impressed that you did all that using genetic algorithms. How many generations did it take and with what kind of starting population did you use to achieve these kinds of results? I think I also understand what you mean by "growing" rooms with seeds. That's very cool.

Heh i misread that as generic.. as in usable in any situation (this is in no way graphical for instance. Thats done on a game to game basis). I have no experience with anything genetic
In fact im still pretty much a noob. Im gonna read up on that though and see how it can possibly be implemented at least for specific things.

When i get something done that allows me to showcase what the engine is actually capable of ill post it

 

[FinalSonicX]

Oh okay haha I could see how you might misread that. Still very cool, looking forward to seeing more about it.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Not enough storyfaggotry.

 

[Qwertilot]

The simple idea that there are monsters/situations that you should (have to sometimes) run away from rather than fighting. At almost any stage of the game. And potentially very real consequences if you don't.....

 

[Serus]

Bad at them, no patience or analysis capability.

I feel your pain, i have no patience for the type of gameplay most roguelikes offer but i still like them - even if i can never hope of finishing one.

 

[NicePics13]

Only played a few of these but I do like Shiren the Wanderer (SNES version, has better animation) for its non-Western setting and quirky humour. And Prospector https://code.google.com/p/rlprospector/ as it's very where-no-man-has-gone-before-y.

 

[mondblut]

No parties. Primitive IGOUGO (or rather ISTEPUSTEP even) game mechanics, no action points and shit. Gameworld is pretty much non-existant due to random generation and the barebones dungeon crawl approach. ASCII crap for visual presentation. Absence of a story doesn't make it particularly attractive either.

tl;dr version: all the genre-defining attributes that make a game to be filed under "roguelikes" specifically happen to suck.

 

[sirfink]

I'd like to see more a traditional RPG made out of a roguelike. I mean more quests and dialogue. You'd probably want a save feature for this. It sucks when you're playing ADOM and you've gone to that first village and spoken to a few people to get the first few quests, then get one step outside the village and get surrounded by a pack of wolves and die. Definitely don't look forward to starting over again and getting all those starting quests.

 

[DakaSha]

tl;dr version: all the genre-defining attributes that make a game to be filed under "roguelikes" specifically happen to suck.

nope

 

[Malakal]

I really like replayability and each game being a new experience.

On the other hand I hate the kind of roguelike that Nethack is, where memorizing everything is a must. I can spoil myself for some spells or how weapons work (thanks crawl, I'm sure your no-description strategy works well) but hate reading whole walkthroughs...

 

[Zomg]

I'd like to see more a traditional RPG made out of a roguelike. I mean more quests and dialogue. You'd probably want a save feature for this. It sucks when you're playing ADOM and you've gone to that first village and spoken to a few people to get the first few quests, then get one step outside the village and get surrounded by a pack of wolves and die. Definitely don't look forward to starting over again and getting all those starting quests.

That Caves of Qud game MisterStone linked seems like that. I didn't get too into it though, too much bullshit to figure out.

I don't care about roleplaying, story, or setting in a pure game like a Roguelike, and the range of stuff you can and should do with 1 fictive "character" in the better roguelikes is more interesting than a what a "party" of 4-6 fictive characters in all blobber type games I've ever played can do. They're not actually people, I get nothing out of their nominal separateness. I do like a good squad tactics game like X-Com and Roguelikes I've played don't provide that type of geometry-based tactics, but then 99% of RPGs have counterproductively shitty and boring squad tactics.

That said I like stuff like PS:T and Morrowind, and in those cases I can accept terrible, almost pathetic sloppiness and weakness as games for whatever reason. I'd like a good pure game combined with a "good story" (i.e. roleplaying, setting, etc) but I have not met this animal.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I'd like to see more a traditional RPG made out of a roguelike. I mean more quests and dialogue.

More quests and dialogue = more pre-generated content that gets tedious and boring during hundreds/thousands of replays.

You'd probably want a save feature for this. It sucks when you're playing ADOM and you've gone to that first village and spoken to a few people to get the first few quests, then get one step outside the village and get surrounded by a pack of wolves and die.

No.

Definitely don't look forward to starting over again and getting all those starting quests.

Except that roguelikes are about starting over again and again hundreds or thousands of times. Also, what's the point of getting all the starting quest? To get into action you can get just one quest or simply to do some quests. Generating a character and getting a quest takes less than 2 minutes, FFS.

 

[DakaSha]

Yeah RL's should stay roguelikes heh

Btw another thing that gets to me.. i think that the highscore system is an incredible way to rate performance and/or to compete against others.. however its pretty much sucks in every single RL except maybe crawl (and im only saying that because i dont know)

I love the highscores and permadeath but it would be cool if it actually meant something.. also something i 'plan' to do

 

[DakaSha]

oh and 7DRL's FUCK OFF
Cant look for new promising roguelikes without these fucking nerdfests cluttering up the internet

 

[Zomg]

Crawl's scoring is almost entirely based on collecting the 15 unique runes in the game (about 10-11 of those runes are essentially "postgame content" that you wouldn't consider for a normal win, which requires 3) and on turn count. So getting a high score is about getting a large number of runes and a few other pieces of bric-a-brac quickly (a tour through most extant content from beginning to end) and then winning. It's not the sole basis for skill comparison but it's interesting. There are no tricks to easily pump the score or anything like that.