Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[shihonage]

One unfortunate side effect was that since it wasn’t in our original design, we didn’t account for it from the beginning of development. We had already done tests and created our tile set sizes, including doors and surrounding props. We could have redesigned the size of the tile sets and doorways (which would have been a huge amount of work since we had grey boxed many of the levels) or look into other options.

Thought so.

Moving around the world in combat is much more free form. Your player won’t just follow the exact grid, which created an unnecessarily artificial look. They will take the shortest unblocked distance from the point they are standing to the point you are moving to. Movement is still calculated based on an underlying (optional on/off) grid and is displayed to you in your AP cost.

This will strike a blow to strategy element of turn-based combat. Either you follow a grid, and let player plan in grid-terms, or you have a mess.

Moving diagonally in the calculation costs 1.5 times as much as a straight movement. Do note that your speed attribute changes the AP cost used as movement for all characters, so the calculation is never very simple.

If the cost was fixed, then you just have 2 for non-diagonals, 3 for diagonals. But now it will have AP fractions? This is a problem that once again, interferes with player being able to think clearly. IMO a game should be designed in a way that deals with whole AP values only. No rounding, either. Just evade the problem entirely through changing how attributes work in order to limit AP calculations to basic addition and subtraction only.

 

[Infinitron]

This will strike a blow to strategy element of turn-based combat. Either you follow a grid, and let player plan in grid-terms, or you have a mess.

Eh, it's not that different from playing a turn-based game with completely free movement and having to learn to estimate AP costs by distance. Or they could highlight the "grid path" that your character will take even if he doesn't actually graphically walk it.

 

[Brother None]

This will strike a blow to strategy element of turn-based combat. Either you follow a grid, and let player plan in grid-terms, or you have a mess.

It's just the graphical representation. You can still look at your grid and mouseover for AP cost highlights, it's just what happens after you click that changed with that.

 

[shihonage]

This will strike a blow to strategy element of turn-based combat. Either you follow a grid, and let player plan in grid-terms, or you have a mess.

Eh, it's not that different from playing a turn-based game with completely free movement and having to learn to estimate AP costs by distance. Or they could highlight the "grid path" that your character will take even if he doesn't actually graphically walk it.

I understand how that works, yes. It removes planning accuracy from counting APs, however, and thus reduces strategy.

 

[shihonage]

This will strike a blow to strategy element of turn-based combat. Either you follow a grid, and let player plan in grid-terms, or you have a mess.

It's just the graphical representation. You can still look at your grid and mouseover for AP cost highlights, it's just what happens after you click that changed with that.

So what you're saying is that internally the actor will still move in strict grid movement, but visually they will take a "natural" path toward destination?

 

[Infinitron]

This will strike a blow to strategy element of turn-based combat. Either you follow a grid, and let player plan in grid-terms, or you have a mess.

It's just the graphical representation. You can still look at your grid and mouseover for AP cost highlights, it's just what happens after you click that changed with that.

So what you're saying is that internally the actor will still move in strict grid movement, but visually they will take a "natural" path toward destination?

You quoted it yourself:

They will take the shortest unblocked distance from the point they are standing to the point you are moving to. Movement is still calculated based on an underlying (optional on/off) grid and is displayed to you in your AP cost.

 

[Zed]

This game doesn't resonate with me at all.
Maybe they can win me over by showing some "town gameplay." Something less combat-oriented. Something that's just not A), B) then C), and instead a little more intertwined. An actual quest-chain perhaps. Less 'enounters' - more persistent stuff.

I had a look at the gamescom video again and noticed that the combat lacks those colorful descriptions. The combat log reads like a MMORPG combat log. The original Wasteland did this better in the 80s
I'm also not a fan of the xcom: new shit combat, but that's something I've whined about already.

 

[tuluse]

I'm also not a fan of the xcom: new shit combat, but that's something I've whined about already.

At least we have real action points. Taking cover always seemed like something that should have existed in previous games. I mean JA2 had it, you just didn't have a fancy icon letting you know.

 

[Excidium]

I'm also not a fan of the xcom: new shit combat, but that's something I've whined about already.

At least we have real action points. Taking cover always seemed like something that should have existed in previous games. I mean JA2 had it, you just didn't have a fancy icon letting you know.

Cover is essential for a game with guns. It's just that the cover system they have is p. lame.

 

[Zed]

I'm just thinking that with the current system, guns = get into cover and popamole; melee = get into faces and smash.

What about just standing in the open, all Mad Max-like (or Fallout-like), and aim a shot at someone's leg? "Max shoots Crew Brute in the leg for 14 damage, leaving Crew Brute an eunuch with one leg to hop on." That's what I want to do. Not sit like a fucko behind a crate and spray SMG at some nerd with zero effect. I want limbs to fly, and I want it described it in a funny way. And I want Fallout's limb-aiming system. No covers. And hexagons.

 

[Excidium]

I'm just thinking that with the current system, guns = get into cover and popamole; melee = get into faces and smash.

What about just standing in the open, all Mad Max-like (or Fallout-like), and aim a shot at someone's leg? "Max shoots Crew Brute in the leg for 14 damage, leaving Crew Brute an eunuch with one leg to hop on." That's what I want to do. Not sit like a fucko behind a crate and spray SMG at some nerd with zero effect. I want limbs to fly, and I want descriptions describing it in a funny way. And I want Fallout's limb-aiming system. And no covers. And hexagons.

So you want a game with combat that's either about a) bullet sponges doing the most accurate attack every turn or b) side with higher initiative winning

 

[Zed]

I'm just thinking that with the current system, guns = get into cover and popamole; melee = get into faces and smash.

What about just standing in the open, all Mad Max-like (or Fallout-like), and aim a shot at someone's leg? "Max shoots Crew Brute in the leg for 14 damage, leaving Crew Brute an eunuch with one leg to hop on." That's what I want to do. Not sit like a fucko behind a crate and spray SMG at some nerd with zero effect. I want limbs to fly, and I want descriptions describing it in a funny way. And I want Fallout's limb-aiming system. And no covers. And hexagons.

So you want a game with combat that's either about a) bullet sponges doing the most accurate attack every turn or b) side with higher initiative winning

You may disregard my example. What I want is combat like Fallout 1 & 2. Perhaps a little faster paced.

 

[Lhynn]

I'm just thinking that with the current system, guns = get into cover and popamole; melee = get into faces and smash.

What about just standing in the open, all Mad Max-like (or Fallout-like), and aim a shot at someone's leg? "Max shoots Crew Brute in the leg for 14 damage, leaving Crew Brute an eunuch with one leg to hop on." That's what I want to do. Not sit like a fucko behind a crate and spray SMG at some nerd with zero effect. I want limbs to fly, and I want descriptions describing it in a funny way. And I want Fallout's limb-aiming system. And no covers. And hexagons.

So you want a game with combat that's either about a) bullet sponges doing the most accurate attack every turn or b) side with higher initiative winning

You may disregard my example. What I want is combat like Fallout 1 & 2. Perhaps a little faster paced.

how would you make TB faster paced?

 

[Excidium]

I'm just thinking that with the current system, guns = get into cover and popamole; melee = get into faces and smash.

What about just standing in the open, all Mad Max-like (or Fallout-like), and aim a shot at someone's leg? "Max shoots Crew Brute in the leg for 14 damage, leaving Crew Brute an eunuch with one leg to hop on." That's what I want to do. Not sit like a fucko behind a crate and spray SMG at some nerd with zero effect. I want limbs to fly, and I want descriptions describing it in a funny way. And I want Fallout's limb-aiming system. And no covers. And hexagons.

So you want a game with combat that's either about a) bullet sponges doing the most accurate attack every turn or b) side with higher initiative winning

You may disregard my example. What I want is combat like Fallout 1 & 2. Perhaps a little faster paced.

I know what you mean, and it's what I want too. I want humans to be soft meat bags and guns to be as deadly as things created to kill humans should be. That's the point of having a cover system.

how would you make TB faster paced?

By making it deadly like combat should be. By not having sloooooow animations. Look at Dead State. Takes like 5 seconds for a character to shoot his goddamn gun.

Contrary to popular belief TB can be p. fast. specially in a CRPG where the computer takes care of dice rolling for you.

 

[Zed]

I'm just thinking that with the current system, guns = get into cover and popamole; melee = get into faces and smash.

What about just standing in the open, all Mad Max-like (or Fallout-like), and aim a shot at someone's leg? "Max shoots Crew Brute in the leg for 14 damage, leaving Crew Brute an eunuch with one leg to hop on." That's what I want to do. Not sit like a fucko behind a crate and spray SMG at some nerd with zero effect. I want limbs to fly, and I want descriptions describing it in a funny way. And I want Fallout's limb-aiming system. And no covers. And hexagons.

So you want a game with combat that's either about a) bullet sponges doing the most accurate attack every turn or b) side with higher initiative winning

You may disregard my example. What I want is combat like Fallout 1 & 2. Perhaps a little faster paced.

how would you make TB faster paced?

have the enemy turns act out faster, especially movement. have animations play out during action (slightly "overlapping"), rather than completely in-between as if the game was paused.

 

[Excidium]

 

[Lhynn]

Arent there like sliders for that stuff? as in, the game does not really need to BE faster or slower paced when it comes to animations, etc. you also can define the speed of enemy turns, etc.

 

[Ramireza]

They just should make the TB combat like in JA2 and all is fine.

 

[Jack Dandy]

You make it sound like it's easy Ramireza, but you fail to take note that JA2 was a game MAINLY focused on combat. This is a big open world RPG we're talking about.

 

[Athelas]

how would you make TB faster paced?

Have the player and enemy actions play out simultaneously? Would also give the battles much more tactical depth.

 

[Ramireza]

You make it sound like it's easy Ramireza, but you fail to take note that JA2 was a game MAINLY focused on combat. This is a big open world RPG we're talking about.

JA2 also had a very huge world to explore. And i know that this isnt easy. But why no copy from the best?

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Ah, the wonders of the stacking AP bonuses of Jet use.

 

[undecaf]

how would you make TB faster paced?

Have the player and enemy actions play out simultaneously? Would also give the battles much more tactical depth.

So phase based?

No thanks.

 

[Athelas]

So phase based?

No thanks.

Not phase based. It's pretty much like games like Fallout, except all actions play out simultaneously.

 

[Bilgefar]

They just should make the TB combat like in JA2 and all is fine.

I know right? Why haven't they thought of using JA2's combat system? And while they're at it, the game should have the writing of PS:T, the C&C of Fallout, the encounter design of BG2, the atmosphere of Bloodlines, and the moddability of Morrowind. After all, why not copy the best?

(Here's a hint: it's a lot harder than it sounds to just copy an element of a game outside that game. Why do you think JA2 is still the best TB combat system after all these years?)