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Wasteland Wasteland 2 Pre-Release Discussion Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

MisterStone

Arcane
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
9,422
Joke skills are fine as long as long as they don't incur a strong opportunity-cost with regards to building up your character. That was sort of a tough thing about Wasteland, because toaster-repair was EXPENSIVE IIRC (or hard to meet the prereqs) and did not appear to do anything.
 

Stinger

Arcane
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
1,366
The person speaking could be a Russian boozehound, a grizzled veteran, a straight-laced military man, or an easy-going rapscallion raised on the streets, not to mention the player can determine which one of them is doing the talking.

I've seen this kind of explanation come up a lot in single character RPGs as well, especially TES and frankly I don't think that's a good enough explanation. All it really means is that instead of catering to a few character archetypes over others you just end up catering to no one at all.

And it doesn't have to be that way. Fallout New Vegas got a lot out of dialogue by making the non-skill related dialogue follow 3 basic and reasonably neutral character archetypes and letting skill/attribute/perk related dialogue really shine through to add that extra personality to the character. It was great and it allowed the player to actually build their character's personality by actually using stats and perks (so fuck those consoletards who insist that stats were a limitation!), I certainly got a lot of mileage out of that system. And Sawyer's write up " Do (say) the right thing" or whatever it was called goes into much better detail than I did.

If this is actually an issue then WL2 can adopt something similar. If the player wants their character's personality to shine through then let the perks and skills and traits etc come up in dialogue while making the rest of the dialogue options neutral in tone but still proper phrases so that they actually know what they're saying. You can adopt something similar to SoZ's system to allow this approach to cover the full team.

Overall I hate the excuse that dialogue should be completely bland and neutral to cater for different personalities. It doesn't cater for different personalities, it caters for no one at all. It's akin to TES stripping away RPG elements to allow players to "role-play" "better" when all it's really done is stripped everything down to a really bland and shallow sandbox that has no reactivity to anything because there is no ruleset to actually govern it.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Staff Member
Joined
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
guize remember all the well-written full dialogue lines that were in toee and soz

6igqxl.jpg

6f2lpe.png


Truly worth the effort.
:troll:
I agree that the "roleplaying" explanation for keywords is basically BS, though. It's mainly a matter of emphasis, of development resources, of tone and feel, and of old-schoolness.
 

Blaine

Cis-Het Oppressor
Patron
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
Messages
1,874,787
Location
Roanoke, VA
Grab the Codex by the pussy
Apparently, NOWGamer has orangutans doing their copy editing. At least it's not church bulletin-caliber.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Messages
5,673
Follow-up update on the video discussed HUD, camera and the dialog system


The last thing we want to talk about is the keyword dialog system. Many of our systems are designed to be a modern take on systems from the original Wasteland. We started with the Wasteland keyword system and updated it, adding layers of complexity that enable us to increase conversational reactivity.

The foundation of the keyword system is the player building up a keyword library through interaction with NPCs and the world. The keyword list starts out empty, and as you speak with NPCs they will reveal new keywords to you. If the revealed keyword is only of interest to that NPC, it will go into a local list. You can click on words in the keyword list to navigate through the conversation. If the revealed keyword has importance beyond that particular conversation, it is put into the regional keyword list. These keywords are of interest to most of the NPCs you encounter that region. A third option, which is never required, is to type something in – a nod to Wasteland 1’s system.

Keywords are also added to the keyword list through perception skill use and environmental description text. For example, if you use perception to examine an object in the world, your observations might reveal a new keyword. Or, if you explored the level and triggered the descriptor text of some object or feature, it too might unlock a keyword.

The NPC’s reaction to any given keyword can be affected by a number of factors including: the party composition, previous gameplay choices, previously used keywords, previous player responses to NPC questions, character skills, character attributes, item inventory, equipped weapons and armor, prior party actions, and CNPCs in the party. In other words, there isn't a one-to-one correlation between keywords and the NPC’s response.

It is important that the player listens to (reads) what the NPCs are saying, because often you can judge by their tone the right way to approach the conversation. For instance, in some cases using a keyword at a particular point of the conversation changes the NPC’s answer to other keywords, or even ends the conversation all together.

One of the suggestions from the fans was that the Ranger party should deliver a line of dialog instead of just barking a keyword. We really love this idea. Having full sentences creates a natural conversation flow. Additionally, this approach allows us to remove the ambiguity of keywords – holding your mouse over a keyword will show you a preview of the sentence your Rangers will say.
 

CrustyBot

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Dec 29, 2011
Messages
814
Codex 2012
Would be very impressive if that level of variation and depth in the keyword/dialog system were to be relatively consistent in the game, as opposed to being a one-off situation. Good update, thanks Brother None. Congratulations on your new job, btw.
 

Temaperacl

Erudite
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
193
Not a big fan of the Keyword->Full Sentence solution it looks like they are deciding to go with (I preferred just the keywords), but everything else in the update seems to look good to me.
 

Stinger

Arcane
Joined
Aug 13, 2011
Messages
1,366
That all sounds great. I'm glad to see the option of full dialogue lines and the option to mouseover to actually see the full dialogue line. But what impresses me more is the hypothetical scenario they presented.

I hope that's not just hype or a one off scenario cause that sounded really awesome.
 

Lady_Error

█▓▒░ ░▒▓█
Patron
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
1,879,250
That does sound like an awesome solution for dialogs.

I just hope the game will run smoothly on my computer, not like that X-COM crap.
 

Lancehead

Liturgist
Joined
Dec 6, 2012
Messages
1,550
The NPC’s reaction to any given keyword can be affected by a number of factors including: the party composition, previous gameplay choices, previously used keywords, previous player responses to NPC questions, character skills, character attributes, item inventory, equipped weapons and armor, prior party actions, and CNPCs in the party. In other words, there isn't a one-to-one correlation between keywords and the NPC’s response.
I don't expect plot critical dialogue to take into account this much depth, but this does sound pretty nice.
 

Jedi Exile

Arcanum
Patron
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Messages
1,179
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong
The last camera feature we want to explain is the ability to rotate the camera to view the scene from any direction. First, you can simply disable camera rotation – the levels have been designed so that you can play the entire game without having to change the camera’s orientation

:yeah:

I hope it will be good. I really do, because

We know that without a doubt, a bad camera system can ruin a game.
 
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
3,438
Location
Lost Hills bunker
They have practically alleviated all the fears about camera and keyword dialogue system with this update. I think this will be Fallout 1 for me all over again (i.e. an awesome open world PA crpg experience, in fact probably my favorite game). :love: Conversation system and reactivity also seems great now that they explained it properly. What more can a man ask from a game? I just hope it sells well, so we get even better Wasteland 3 with more funding. Now I wish I could go into cryogenic sleep and wake up when it's finished. :D

PS.

Brother None, please do tell us about your new job, really. :? :D
 

Captain Shrek

Guest
>Ranger Party (keyword = blood stains) – “What can you tell us about the blood stains on the trail?”
>NPC Bob – “Oh, that was me. I was looking for a weapons stash I had heard about in that canyon and I was jumped by a pissed-off Honey Badger.”



I am happy that they finally went for the complete sentence! :incline:!
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Staff Member
Joined
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Messages
99,690
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
>Ranger Party (keyword = blood stains) – “What can you tell us about the blood stains on the trail?”
>NPC Bob – “Oh, that was me. I was looking for a weapons stash I had heard about in that canyon and I was jumped by a pissed-off Honey Badger.”


I am happy that they finally went for the complete sentence! :incline:!

But these are complete sentences that are BASED ON keywords, so there won't be any Fallout-style "personality-expressing" sentences.
 

Captain Shrek

Guest
>Ranger Party (keyword = blood stains) – “What can you tell us about the blood stains on the trail?”
>NPC Bob – “Oh, that was me. I was looking for a weapons stash I had heard about in that canyon and I was jumped by a pissed-off Honey Badger.”


I am happy that they finally went for the complete sentence! :incline:!

But these are complete sentences that are BASED ON keywords, so there won't be any Fallout-style "personality-expressing" sentences.


never said anything about that. The way I remember it, is what I asked for was: Keyword -> Complete sentence -> More clear expression. I actually remember you asking what good was that.
 

Kem0sabe

Arcane
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
13,220
Location
Azores Islands
Even with these generic keyword "descriptions", which will invariably be the same in many conversations with npc´s, still not as great for characterization if they had used a full list dialogue system. But hey... something is better than nothing, and it is an improvement over the previous implementation.
 

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