Incline Warhammer 40,000 Lore Thread

[Kalarion]

I'll try to dig up the relevant passages when I get off work later today.

As promised. This is from The Devastation of Baal, second book of the Dante trilogy, by Guy Haley. Plot synopsis: Several years into the Gathering Storm era, Hive Fleet Leviathan invades Baal, home planet of the Blood Angels. Dante, Chapter Master and all-around Methuselah (at the time of this book's printing he was the oldest living Space Marine of the current day) badass, leads the defense.

...there was Baal, home world of the Blood Angels, lying directly in the swarm's path.

This was not accidental.

The sages of the Imperium thought the hive mind a non-sentient intelligence. They believed...

The Imperial scholars were wrong. The hive mind knew. The hive mind thought, it felt, it hated and it desired. Its emotions were unutterably alien, cocktails of feeling not even the subtle aeldari might decipher. Its emotions were oceans to the puddles of a man's feelings. They were inconceivable to humanity, for they were too big to perceive.

The hive mind looked out of its innumerable eyes towards the dull red star of Baal. It apprehended that this was the hive of the warriors that had hurt it so grievously, who had burned its feeding grounds and scattered its fleets. It hated the red prey, and it coveted them. Tasting their exotic genomes it had seen potential for new and terrible war beasts.

And so it drew its plans, and it set in motion its trillion trillion bodies towards the consumption of the creatures in red metal, so that their secrets might be plundered, and reemployed in the sating of the hive mind's endless hunger. This was deliberate, considered, and done in malice.

The hive mind was aware, and it desired vengeance.

Unfortunately I don't see how this can be retconned outside of a blatant canon change ala Haley's "second edition" Dark Imperium (where BL just straight changes the book), since Guy Haley explicitly used third-person omniscient for this passage (so no "well this is how it was perceived"). It was the one thing that left a bad taste in my mouth from the trilogy. Other than that it was a fun read though; I like Haley's Dante, and the two scenes at the end of this book (Dante talking to Sanguinius in a vision during a Sus-an-induced coma, and Dante's meeting with Guilliman) were enjoyably sappy.

Lyric Suite if you want good bedtime reading that tries hard to take the setting seriously, may I once again recommend giving Guy Haley a try? Absolutely everything he's written is at worst enjoyable and at its best, exceptional (for BL).

 

[Mangoose]

I'll try to dig up the relevant passages when I get off work later today.

As promised. This is from The Devastation of Baal, second book of the Dante trilogy, by Guy Haley. Plot synopsis: Several years into the Gathering Storm era, Hive Fleet Leviathan invades Baal, home planet of the Blood Angels. Dante, Chapter Master and all-around Methuselah (at the time of this book's printing he was the oldest living Space Marine of the current day) badass, leads the defense.

...there was Baal, home world of the Blood Angels, lying directly in the swarm's path.

This was not accidental.

The sages of the Imperium thought the hive mind a non-sentient intelligence. They believed...

The Imperial scholars were wrong. The hive mind knew. The hive mind thought, it felt, it hated and it desired. Its emotions were unutterably alien, cocktails of feeling not even the subtle aeldari might decipher. Its emotions were oceans to the puddles of a man's feelings. They were inconceivable to humanity, for they were too big to perceive.

The hive mind looked out of its innumerable eyes towards the dull red star of Baal. It apprehended that this was the hive of the warriors that had hurt it so grievously, who had burned its feeding grounds and scattered its fleets. It hated the red prey, and it coveted them. Tasting their exotic genomes it had seen potential for new and terrible war beasts.

And so it drew its plans, and it set in motion its trillion trillion bodies towards the consumption of the creatures in red metal, so that their secrets might be plundered, and reemployed in the sating of the hive mind's endless hunger. This was deliberate, considered, and done in malice.

The hive mind was aware, and it desired vengeance.

Unfortunately I don't see how this can be retconned outside of a blatant canon change ala Haley's "second edition" Dark Imperium (where BL just straight changes the book), since Guy Haley explicitly used third-person omniscient for this passage (so no "well this is how it was perceived"). It was the one thing that left a bad taste in my mouth from the trilogy. Other than that it was a fun read though; I like Haley's Dante, and the two scenes at the end of this book (Dante talking to Sanguinius in a vision during a Sus-an-induced coma, and Dante's meeting with Guilliman) were enjoyably sappy.

Lyric Suite if you want good bedtime reading that tries hard to take the setting seriously, may I once again recommend giving Guy Haley a try? Absolutely everything he's written is at worst enjoyable and at its best, exceptional (for BL).

I like Guy's short stories and audio dramas.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

It was the one thing that left a bad taste in my mouth from the trilogy.

It wouldn't leave such a bad taste if it'd be foreshadowing for Malal.

Alas, legal issues make it impossible for Malal to be made canon by GW.

 

[Lyric Suite]

One thing i find curious.

I automatically assumed the people who came up with this setting were all euphoric fedoras, but it is interesting that the rationale the Emperor gives for exterminating religion makes him seem like a massive hypocrite since he does much, much worse. This would indicate whoever came up with this stuff may have wanted to keep the question unresolved instead of beating us over the head that faith is retarded and reason and science should prevail. The fate of the Emperor too is highly ironic, since he ended up being worshipped as a deity and being stuck in his throne as a corpse there's nothing much he can do about it.

 

[dacencora]

One thing i find curious.

I automatically assumed the people who came up with this setting were all euphoric fedoras, but it is interesting that the rationale the Emperor gives for exterminating religion makes him seem like a massive hypocrite since he does much, much worse. This would indicate whoever came up with this stuff may have wanted to keep the question unresolved instead of beating us over the head that faith is retarded and reason and science should prevail. The fate of the Emperor too is highly ironic, since he ended up being worshipped as a deity and being stuck in his throne as a corpose there's nothing much he can do about it.

I'm fairly certain that the irony of the Emperor becoming the thing he hated is one of the central themes of the universe. That and the fact that the "Imperial Truth" was a lie, because the Warp had godlike entities in it. But then, I think it's still an unanswered question because you could call Nurgle, etc. gods, but what if they are just psychically advanced aliens? And then the question becomes what is the true difference between an alien with psychic power and what humanity has traditionally called a demon? So I think there is still an element of "can this be explained by scientific (LOL I know) and rational means, or is there such a thing as souls and spirits?"

 

[Kalarion]

I automatically assumed the people who came up with this setting were all euphoric fedoras...

They were. But rule of cool was the guiding philosophy, especially at the beginning (Rogue Trader, 1st/2nd ed), far more than lore consistency or sound social/metaphysical critique. It was only with later editions that GW attempted to clean up the mess and make an internally consistent universe. There was a lot of tacking on motivations for major historical players (the Primarchs and so forth) after the fact. Hell, re-read fizzelopeguss's post earlier in the thread. Even now the lore isn't driven by a desire to be coherent and consistent. It's driven by the requirement to drive model sales. It doesn't need to make good sense. It just needs to make enough sense that people keep buying spacemen.

It's why if you follow the lore you see continuous retcons, errata publications and so forth. You have to remember that the foundations of the setting don't make sense even in its own context. So there's always patch-jobs going on.

 

[lightbane]

IIRC, during the very first editions, the Emprah was pretty much stated to be a benevolent figure that tragically failed for one reason or another. That quickly went up to flames in later editions and dumb novels.

Whenever there are things that could make the setting more interesting, such as the hidden children of the Emprah/Sensei stuff or the "resurrect the Emprah" plot, they're quickly forgotten about.

 

[Tyranicon]

One thing i find curious.

I automatically assumed the people who came up with this setting were all euphoric fedoras, but it is interesting that the rationale the Emperor gives for exterminating religion makes him seem like a massive hypocrite since he does much, much worse. This would indicate whoever came up with this stuff may have wanted to keep the question unresolved instead of beating us over the head that faith is retarded and reason and science should prevail. The fate of the Emperor too is highly ironic, since he ended up being worshipped as a deity and being stuck in his throne as a corpose there's nothing much he can do about it.

I'm fairly certain that the irony of the Emperor becoming the thing he hated is one of the central themes of the universe. That and the fact that the "Imperial Truth" was a lie, because the Warp had godlike entities in it. But then, I think it's still an unanswered question because you could call Nurgle, etc. gods, but what if they are just psychically advanced aliens? And then the question becomes what is the true difference between an alien with psychic power and what humanity has traditionally called a demon? So I think there is still an element of "can this be explained by scientific (LOL I know) and rational means, or is there such a thing as souls and spirits?"

Do the Tau have scientific rationale for Chaos yet?

Also the Tau are a problem for advancing the timeline too much. Either you stagnate the shit out of them (which is probably the most likely case), or the march of progress continues and they become energy beings or something.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I guess part of the inspiration of the Emperor is the Mule from the Foundation series.

He also seems to be based on the legend of the "King of the World" that was going around in some esoteric circles. Rene Guenon even wrote a small book about him. The Emperor's palace is in the Himalayan Mountains, exaclty like Agartha, the realm of the King of the World, seems to be according to the legend.

I think the one true positive aspect of this setting is that they knew what to steal.

 

[lightbane]

Do the Tau have scientific rationale for Chaos yet?

Haven't bothered with the latest "lore updates" regarding these, but IIRC only the Ethereals know what's up, at best, and they're not telling their slaves/subjects for obvious reasons.

Also the Tau are a problem for advancing the timeline too much. Either you stagnate the shit out of them (which is probably the most likely case), or the march of progress continues and they become energy beings or something.

Their tech is not that good actually. Sure, they have rapid-fire energy guns, but if the Imperium could muster enough armies, the Cau would be flattened. The Adeptus Mechanicus' own armies are even more OP and tech-advanced than whatever these discount Gundam lovers can asspull.
Chances are they'll be eaten by the Tyranids just like the Squats.

Speaking of: Has any recent novel brought these space dwarves back? They were genuine allies of humans and somewhat optimistic in comparison with everyone else, so it's probably not going to happen.

 

[Tyranicon]

Do the Tau have scientific rationale for Chaos yet?

Haven't bothered with the latest "lore updates" regarding these, but IIRC only the Ethereals know what's up, at best, and they're not telling their slaves/subjects for obvious reasons.

Also the Tau are a problem for advancing the timeline too much. Either you stagnate the shit out of them (which is probably the most likely case), or the march of progress continues and they become energy beings or something.

Their tech is not that good actually. Sure, they have rapid-fire energy guns, but if the Imperium could muster enough armies, the Cau would be flattened. The Adeptus Mechanicus' own armies are even more OP and tech-advanced than whatever these discount Gundam lovers can asspull.
Chances are they'll be eaten by the Tyranids just like the Squats.

Speaking of: Has any recent novel brought these space dwarves back? They were genuine allies of humans and somewhat optimistic in comparison with everyone else, so it's probably not going to happen.

Not sure about the novels, but there are rumors that Squats could be returning due to a forgeworld model a few years back, and some other side material stuff (Necromunda?). So they're probably not uncanon/dead anymore, which is great cause space dwarfs are cool.

The true danger of the Tau isn't that their current technology is all that great, but because they are not trapped by the same technological stagnation almost every other race in the setting is. So either stagnation happens, or in a "mere" 100-200 years, they achieve something close to a technological singularity.

Ah who am I kidding? GW loves the status quo and that would never happen.

 

[baud]

One thing i find curious.

I automatically assumed the people who came up with this setting were all euphoric fedoras, but it is interesting that the rationale the Emperor gives for exterminating religion makes him seem like a massive hypocrite since he does much, much worse. This would indicate whoever came up with this stuff may have wanted to keep the question unresolved instead of beating us over the head that faith is retarded and reason and science should prevail. The fate of the Emperor too is highly ironic, since he ended up being worshipped as a deity and being stuck in his throne as a corpose there's nothing much he can do about it.

I'm fairly certain that the irony of the Emperor becoming the thing he hated is one of the central themes of the universe. That and the fact that the "Imperial Truth" was a lie, because the Warp had godlike entities in it. But then, I think it's still an unanswered question because you could call Nurgle, etc. gods, but what if they are just psychically advanced aliens? And then the question becomes what is the true difference between an alien with psychic power and what humanity has traditionally called a demon? So I think there is still an element of "can this be explained by scientific (LOL I know) and rational means, or is there such a thing as souls and spirits?"

I think the idea of the Chaos Gods being explained by "scientific" means was a plot point in one of Fabius Bile novels. Can't remember what Bile's idea of the gods was though, but that was something that the gods don't exist as individual entities, but rather mindless warp phenomena

Do the Tau have scientific rationale for Chaos yet?

Haven't bothered with the latest "lore updates" regarding these, but IIRC only the Ethereals know what's up, at best, and they're not telling their slaves/subjects for obvious reasons.

Also the Tau are a problem for advancing the timeline too much. Either you stagnate the shit out of them (which is probably the most likely case), or the march of progress continues and they become energy beings or something.

Their tech is not that good actually. Sure, they have rapid-fire energy guns, but if the Imperium could muster enough armies, the Cau would be flattened. The Adeptus Mechanicus' own armies are even more OP and tech-advanced than whatever these discount Gundam lovers can asspull.
Chances are they'll be eaten by the Tyranids just like the Squats.

Speaking of: Has any recent novel brought these space dwarves back? They were genuine allies of humans and somewhat optimistic in comparison with everyone else, so it's probably not going to happen.

They've released a few years ago a squat mini for Necromunda, but I think it was to troll those who genuinely want them back (and make some easy bucks at the same time)

 

[fizzelopeguss]

I automatically assumed the people who came up with this setting were all euphoric fedoras...

They were. But rule of cool was the guiding philosophy, especially at the beginning (Rogue Trader, 1st/2nd ed), far more than lore consistency or sound social/metaphysical critique. It was only with later editions that GW attempted to clean up the mess and make an internally consistent universe. There was a lot of tacking on motivations for major historical players (the Primarchs and so forth) after the fact. Hell, re-read fizzelopeguss's post earlier in the thread. Even now the lore isn't driven by a desire to be coherent and consistent. It's driven by the requirement to drive model sales. It doesn't need to make good sense. It just needs to make enough sense that people keep buying spacemen.

It's why if you follow the lore you see continuous retcons, errata publications and so forth. You have to remember that the foundations of the setting don't make sense even in its own context. So there's always patch-jobs going on.

10 millennia of stagnation, ohh by the way here's a whole new set of the galaxy's signature set of supermen. Just in time for us losing the chapterhouse lawsuit and the craze of third parties making bigger space marines.

 

[baud]

Ah who am I kidding? GW loves the status quo and that would never happen.

unless it's to sell more space marines miniatures (ie Primaris marines)

 

[jml]

Not sure about the novels, but there are rumors that Squats could be returning due to a forgeworld model a few years back, and some other side material stuff (Necromunda?). So they're probably not uncanon/dead anymore, which is great cause space dwarfs are cool.

The true danger of the Tau isn't that their current technology is all that great, but because they are not trapped by the same technological stagnation almost every other race in the setting is. So either stagnation happens, or in a "mere" 100-200 years, they achieve something close to a technological singularity.

Ah who am I kidding? GW loves the status quo and that would never happen.

In Psychic Awakening there was short mention of Admech vessel encountering squats.

 

[Hag]

The official answer to the question : since asteroids are free, why doesn't the Imperial Navy just hurl them onto planets instead of using Exterminatus :

It did appear in the excellent 2001 Chapter Approved rulebook (probably the best book GW ever published), so I guess it is cannon.

 

[Kalarion]

...so I guess it is cannon.

I'm going to assume this was a pun given the lore content, because I'm a generous man. But I've got my eye on you boi

 

[Tyranicon]

Not exactly 40k and probably not canon, but what do you guys think of the demon army rosters from Total Warhammer 3?

The Slaaneshi roster looks kind of generic.

 

[Rahdulan]

So, yeah. This apparently wasn't an April Fools joke - Squats are real.
https://www.warhammer-community.com...xt-faction-is-real-heres-a-model-to-prove-it/

What April Fools? The 41st Millennium’s Next Faction is Real – Here’s a Model to Prove it

It has come to our attention that yesterday’s stunning reveal of the next Warhammer 40,000 faction fell on an unfortunate date. This was an honest mistake that absolutely anyone could have made. To make it up to you, we have a rather special announcement.

They’re real.

Yes, they’re really real. In an April Fools double-bluff that had Tzeentch himself scratching his feathered head, Humanity’s long-lost cousins actually are making their return to the 41st Millennium as a full Warhammer 40,000 faction.

And while those nasty Necromundans still call them Squats, that’s not at all how they refer to themselves. These warriors have a long and proud martial history, and to those who aren’t on their bad side, they’re known as the Leagues of Votann – though they refer to themselves as Kin.

Although their civilisation shares common roots with Humanity, the Leagues of Votann have an uneasy relationship with the Imperium of Man. Unlike their superstitious Human cousins, the Leagues emerged from the Age of Strife with far more of their ancient technology intact, including some infamous advances the Imperium would consider extremely heretical.

Their knack for science and a headstrong nature make for skilled warriors backed up by reliable weaponry, as you can see from even this basic trooper. And while there’s no love lost between the Leagues of Votann and Humankind, the resurgence of Chaos and ascendent xenos hordes mean there are usually* more pressing concerns than fighting each other.

The Leagues of Votann are coming to Warhammer 40,000 later this year, but there are still a solid few months to go before we get a good look at their advance force. In the meantime, we’ll be sharing a huge amount of info about the new faction and their place in the 41st Millennium.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

recently i skimmed through the rogue trader rules. is it me or is it the most boring read ever?

 

[Akratus II]

recently i skimmed through the rogue trader rules. is it me or is it the most boring read ever?

Wasn't it kind of schizophrenic, in that they didn't know if they were making a wargame or a roleplaying game?

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Which? Rogue Trader made by FFG?

 

[GreyViper]

Well, they had to re-write the whole thing so they could now have copyright claims, unlike the Squats where you cant. Still, time will tell if they will be interesting or aesthetically pleasing look. I mean as much people were crying for the old 80s biker dwarf models, I felt no interest for them. I suspect they had a long brainstorm and decided to have something more than space dwarfs. And if it does not sell well nids will have another snack as a lesson to consumer, buy our products or else...

 

[baud]

recently i skimmed through the rogue trader rules. is it me or is it the most boring read ever?

unless you're looking for some specific info, ideas for a character or to prep a campaign, it's not surprising ttrpgs books are quite boring to read

 

[Parsimonious cook]

Disciples of the Dark Gods for the Dark Heresy (1st Edition) is an excellent read though - get it if you can. Rogue Trader is indeed a bit cumbersome, both to read and play, as it is a system heavy game by nature and requires fairly large number of players to run smoothly (otherwise the GM has to run a few NPC characters, at least in my experience, since few of the classes are actually expendable for running a ship).

I always found the Dark Heresy to be more dynamic and interesting, the three novels that were released by Black Library that are set in the Calixis sector are also fairly good, though they seem to be pretty much impossible to get nowadays.