Incline Warhammer 40,000 Lore Thread

[Lyric Suite]

Alright, so after a long pause i picked up Graham McNeill's 40k series again. I figured i'm past half way through i might as well finish it at this point. Just done with Courage and Honor, after which i think i have a couple more novels plus some short story here and there and i can move on to better writers.

My opinion of this guy hasn't changed much from last time. His prose is professional enough for what this is (his word painting in particular gets occationally quite vivid, like the first invasion of the Tyranids in Warriors of Ultramar. I'd say his descriptive skills are his strongest asset) but his story telling skills are very mediocre and there's some parts in his books that just feel rushed. Like at times his writing drops to fan fic levels and i can only assume time constrains were an issue. Considering the sheer volume of Warhammer novels out there i assume all those hired writers are on a time schedule.

What warrants comment is his presentation of Warhammer lore, which so far is bad in execution but actually interesting in detail. I can say i actually learned a lot so far, especially regarding the Space Marines themselves and the races he has touched upon so far, chiefly the chaos dudes, the Tyranids and now the Tau. And amusingly, he just confirmed my initial assumptions regarding the Codex Astartes, which i had assumed in the lore (i know in reality it's just a game rule's book) is supposed to be the product of an enhanced brain the depth of which cannot easily be probed by anyone who isn't a Primarch. I made that assumption given the strong influence of Frank Herbert's Dune in this setting, but McNeill's treatment of the Codex and the various dilemmas Uriel has to face in the course of this series is so banal, so childish i thought i just assumed too much and that the Warhammer lore isn't actually as rich as that, at least on this particular point.

Turns out my initial assumption was correct because in Courage and Honor (BTW he repeats the title of the book in the novel so many times it became comical after a while) he actually spells it out, when the chief librarian of the Ultramarines tells Uriel that even after centuries of study he himself couldn't probe all the secrets of the Codex, which begs the fucking question. If this is actually what the lore says and McNeill knew it, how the fuck did he came up with such pedestrian scenarios and situations which made the Codex seem like a bunch of stupid rules that couldn't possibly anticipate all the complexity of every relative situation? The way he descrived the Codex one would have been hard pressed to even imagine how the Ultramarines even won any wars at all, especially since it wouldn't have taken long for the chaos dudes to figure out how to exploit the banal/shit/boring rigidity of this book. Turns out the Codex isn't simplistic as that after all, at least according to the lore. So it's not the lore that's stupid, it is McNeill that was being retarded all along.

Still, i don't regret reading those books. I started with the idea of trying to get a better grasp of the lore and i'd say all in all that goal was accomplished. Especially when it comes to the Space Marines themselves i had no idea they were so advanced.

 

[Akratus II]

Oh, I've actually finished the Ravenor trilogy a while ago. The third book ramped things up some more and, well, it's just more fun pulpy good-ness. Plenty of different ideas, not too predictable, plenty of details. Just good plain fun. I would rate this trilogy somewhat below the Eisenhorn one since it hooked me just a bit less and Ravenor is more boring in terms of personality than Eisenhorn. I'm on "The Magos" right now and I'm liking it plenty.

 

[luj1]

Malal is cool

 

[Heroic Liberator]

 

[rusty_shackleford]

wh40k sure gives off a lot of homoeroticism vibes

 

[luj1]

it will

once Pozzed Trader is out

 

[Lyric Suite]

wh40k sure gives off a lot of homoeroticism vibe

You realize Jews invented that idea in order to denigrade masculinity and turn all the goys into actual fags, right?

 

[Louis_Cypher]

Was the idea of the Eldar originally being a Terran species, uplifted via genetic engineering, ever canon, or is it some fan theory I'm remembering? The Old Ones engineered several species to serve as their foot soldiers against the C'tan. The Krork (possibly inexhaustible infantry?), Rashan, Jokaero (possibly technicians with genetic memory?), K'nib and Eldar (possibly psychers with the capacity of officers?). I seem to remember, but can't recall if it was a book or theory, a suggestion that the Eldar's "ancestral mammal" might have been taken from Earth originally by the Old Ones. Since the War in Heaven was 60 million years ago, it's not a plausible explanation for their resemblance to Humans, as that would have predated Hominidae as far as we know, with early Hominidae resembling Jokaero more than Humanity, but presumably that was the intention of the theorycrafting; an attempt at explaining Eldar and Human resemblance but simultaneous genetic distance.

It seems a species that dominates the Old One's Webway, dominates the galaxy, as one potential route to lasting victory. In A Thousand Sons, it says that the Webway's actual channels are in some sense made of a conceptual substance, but we know the artificial Terran extension joining it was incapable of shielding people in the same way, which is why the psychic power of someone using the Golden Throne was required to hold back the daemonic. The Old One's Empire, then the Eldar Empire, dominated the galaxy via control of the Webway, and the Imperium of Man might have, but required shielding from psychic assault. Can we infer something about how the Old Ones constructed it from those two pieces of information. Perhaps something of eternal value, in contrast to chaos, conceptually, keeps the conduits functioning millions of years after the Old One's have disappeared from history; what conceptual material holds back pure degeneracy? Can human psychers imperfectly arrive at universal eternal concepts, where the Old Ones could fully engineer with it?

 

[luj1]

Are Old Ones from Wh40k Lizardmen from Warhammer?

 

[Louis_Cypher]

It's complicated because the Lizardmen in Warhammer Fantasy are also several species, rather than just one, and they also serve unseen 'Old Ones' too. I think the old idea was that the Slann in 40K, represented as xenos Lizardmen, were devloved Old Ones, degenerated into savages on primitive worlds after 60 million years of lost technology. I don't know if that idea was ever canon, or a fan misinterpretation, or was once canon then changed. It might make more sense that these Slann were just another subject race (and an early edition excuse for using modded Lizardmen figures in 40K as primative xenos savages).

It's probably best to retain some mystery in the setting, so I hope they don't go too much into it. Retaining this part of the lore as just a distant mythic cultural memory in the archives of the Eldar, is more interesting. I know some folks also feel the Necron backstory was more bleak and cosmic in it's original C'tan-dominated form, and think giving them agency has gone a bit too far with Dynasties. Some middle ground returning the C'tan to a position of cosmic horror that rivals Chaos might be better.

 

[Kalarion]

What is the Webway made out of?

Wraithbone, I believe. And it shields from warp-borne assault because... well because that's one of the things Wraithbone fucking does you see :D

We must always keep in mind that the original authors of WH40K/WHFRP had no thought for lore or metaphysical consistency. That came later, as grognard consumption picked up and they demanded what grogs always do eventually (that is, an overall, internally consistent verisimilous (new word!!) framework to give meaning to their gaming). So we're left with lots of senseless nooks and crannies in the lore.

We should also remember that, by the lights of Canon(TM), there is no great ascendant Truth, no one true God. There is, in a very real sense, absolutely nothing of eternal value in the WH40K universe. It is ultimately Nietzschean, where everyone (and every group, inasmuch as that applies) makes their own meaning. The only delineation between this belief and that thought is strength and will - strength of arm and of mind, the will and spirit to bring an ideal into existence - and it lasts as long as strength and will hold out.

If we insist on taking the ultimately insane universe of WH40K on its face while also trying to tie it to our reality, my favorite head-canon is that WH40K is, in fact, Hell. God, in my interpretation, has passed His final judgement, totally cut off the souls of the damned and the demons, and moved with His faithful to a new universe, where He continues His great work (whatever that work may be). His great nemesis, the Serpent, is left behind to grasp eternally for what he believes is the better world - the better universe - that he alone can make.

The Emperor is Lucifer. He is now the ultimate embodiment of his "I wills" from Isaiah:
I will ascend into heaven; ==> mastery of the Warp, via the Webway
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; ==> a Golden Throne
I will sit also upon the mount of congregation;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will be like the Most High. ==> the ultimate ascension of mankind as the pre-eminent race of the galaxy, their position and power totally secure; and he as the Ubermensch.

He wished to create something new and greater then what his Master of old made. He had a plan, near-infinite power, the inexhaustible reservoir of his pride and spirit. He needed only bring what he wished to term, and create a new, shining reality that would prove, once and for all, that he was greater than the Living God. Then, the five I wills would become the five I WILLs.

But he failed.

Interestingly, even though my fanon runs into a lot of problems, it also helps explain some inexplicable lore gaps, especially from the Horus Heresy.

Why does it seem the Emperor has a long and contentious, yet also mutually beneficial, history with the Chaos gods, despite humanity's relatively recent apprehension of them? Because he knows them. They were his, you see. But as always happens with evil (even an evil that aspires to more, to something better or greater), his plots and plans were destined to bring him into contention with them. He didn't need or want them in his attempt to outdo his Creator. Once they were useful lieutenants in his long war. But now, judgement having been cast and his chance to best and destroy his erstwhile Lord gone forever, they were hindrances to his designs. After all, if he wished to WILL, and there was no longer any ultimate Standard, why shouldn't they as well? Why shouldn't they bring about their own version of eternal reality?

How was the Emperor able to secure the bargain which he (apparently) ultimately reneged on in the process of creating his Primarchs? Because the Chaos gods had a long and (until relatively recently) fruitful relationship with him. They may not have trusted him, but they were still willing at that point to play the Game with him. It was only after his great betrayal that they cast aside, to some degree, the politicking and backbiting of the Great Game to throw him down.

Why does he so far outstrip humanity, and his ultimate creation - the Primarchs - in terms of psychic might, spiritual plenitude, towering intellect, and precognition? Because he is a flawed replica of the great work of God. As our Lord incarnated in the Man of Jesus Christ, the Emperor is the incarnated form of the first, and greatest, of God's creations. He is truly, in the blighted reality of WH40K, the Morning Star.

Are Old Ones from Wh40k Lizardmen from Warhammer?

GW has repeatedly stated that the universes of WHFRP and WH40K are separate. There are similarities, but ultimately, no, they aren't.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

That perspective also explains "The Last Church" well (why the Emperor is angelic, but disdains religion).

Let's debate which interpretation is more interesting. 40K being a comment on Luciferan arrogance or 40K being a comment on the necessity of faith. I've heard people argue the 40K setting is something like a classic parable on the dangers of hubris, turned up to 11. The Imperium's enlightenment project is a ship "too big to sink" that encounters the iceberg. Alternatively, perhaps it's a comment on what genuinely sustains Man; it turns out faith is better at unifying Man, holding back the tide of darkness, and one wonders (despite all Games Workshop's apparent denial) if the Emperor was always preparing the way for religion. Why appear divine, in his enlightenment reformation? It could be read as a kind of magnification of all that English literature that deals with the dangers of too much trust in Man's own efforts, or as a subtle, perhaps even unwitting, vindication of the Christian message where he is a metaphor for God.

In Britain, there have always been people who wrote parody like Judge Dread, so it's quite possible that the Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition, etc, were intended to be exaggerations of how protestants or atheists saw the Catholic Church. However, sometimes a work of fiction can end up being guided by truth unwittingly, so perhaps they stumbled across certain things along the way that the "rule of cool" guided into lore, but which accidentally seem ever more relevant in an increasingly dark world where it's clear many xenos are found not acting in the West's best interests. They unwittingly create the Tau, the Genestealers, and Chaos, as parodies of how they think the right sees itself besieged, only for those parodies to be increasingly borne out by evidence as people prey on our children.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I think the people who came up with 40K are just lifting stuff from things they deem to be cool, which means there's very little in this setting that's actually original and yet who ever came up with this had certainly a keen eye on what to steal and there's also clear indications their borrowing goes beyond other science fiction settings. I pointed out for instance the similarity between the Emperor and the myth of the "king of the world" or the king of Agartha. I can only assume the people behind this setting also had interest in other things, history, myth, new age shit and who knows what else.

 

[Naveen]

Rick Priestly, who can be said to be the creator of W40K, studied archeology & history, and he is obviously a history nerd since he has written other ancient history wargames and is now co-owner of Warlord Games (which mostly makes historical wargames.)

It's funny, though, that while there is a whole movement of people trying to understand the original D&D and Gygax's intention, there doesn't seem to be the same for Warhammer & W40k, at least in terms of "lore" or "style," aside from a few oldhammer fans... especially because all the creators are still alive and some are easy to reach. It's easy to find a few interviews and Q&A with Priestly, and it's pretty obvious he thinks modern W40k is stupid. I like this one.

 

[lightbane]

It seems a species that dominates the Old One's Webway, dominates the galaxy, as one potential route to lasting victory. In A Thousand Sons, it says that the Webway's actual channels are in some sense made of a conceptual substance, but we know the artificial Terran extension joining it was incapable of shielding people in the same way, which is why the psychic power of someone using the Golden Throne was required to hold back the daemonic.

Wasn't the Terran extension faulty because it was unfinished and Magnus fucked it up, thus forcing the Emprah to use the Throne to avoid daemons from spilling into Terra?

How was the Emperor able to secure the bargain which he (apparently) ultimately reneged on in the process of creating his Primarchs? Because the Chaos gods had a long and (until relatively recently) fruitful relationship with him. They may not have trusted him, but they were still willing at that point to play the Game with him. It was only after his great betrayal that they cast aside, to some degree, the politicking and backbiting of the Great Game to throw him down.

I dislike that interpretation that the Emprah made a pact with Chaos to make the Primarchs, as that means he's no longer the super-genius that single-handedly created supersoldiers, uplifted humanity from a barbaric Mad Max style state and so on.

In Britain, there have always been people who wrote parody like Judge Dread, so it's quite possible that the Ecclesiarchy, Inquisition, etc, were intended to be exaggerations of how protestants or atheists saw the Catholic Church. However, sometimes a work of fiction can end up being guided by truth unwittingly, so perhaps they stumbled across certain things along the way that the "rule of cool" guided into lore, but which accidentally seem ever more relevant in an increasingly dark world where it's clear many xenos are found not acting in the West's best interests. They unwittingly create the Tau, the Genestealers, and Chaos, as parodies of how they think the right sees itself besieged, only for those parodies to be increasingly borne out by evidence as people prey on our children.

The fact that reality has become as insane as WH40k in some aspects is coincidence. I liked the OG interpretation of the first editions of the Emprah that he was always thinking for the best of humanity... Only for future works to make him an atheist schizo that cannot into long-term planning.

modern W40k is stupid.

Agreed. I liked the Ciaphas Cain's interpretation of the actual lore being propaganda from the enemy and the Imperium being more relatable than what the other books say.

 

[Akratus II]

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I used to be really into 40k back in the 2000s, but as with most of the fandoms I followed at that stage in my life I gradually drifted away from it. There's stuff I still like, and plenty of stuff I don't like. I like anthology settings and 40k's sheer scale makes it the ultimate anthology setting. I don't like how it seems to have degenerated into a wankfest revolving around the Emperor's family drama. No offense.

 

[Kalarion]

So I've finished a run of 4 relatively recent 40K books: Dark City (Chris Wraight), Brutal Kunnin' (Mike Brooks), Ghazghkull Thraka: Prophet of the WAAAAAAGH! (Nate Crowley), and Echoes of Eternity (Aaron Dembski-Bowden).

Brutal Kunnin' was by far the worst of the lot. I keep seeing Mike Brooks championed as the Ork writer for Black Library, and all I can say is, if that's true it's no wonder they're not popular and don't receive a lot of model/rule support. A thoroughly mediocre book with nothing new or interesting to add. It's also the first Black Library book I read that pushed the "they/them" insanity into W40K. It may not seem like much, but to someone like me who "hears" the words on the page in my head, it is annoying as fuck to have what sounds like some faggish SJW professor using "gender-neutral" retardation in my head over and over and over and over every time a Mechanicus or Ork character is referenced. I came close to quitting the book 100 pages in.

Ghazghkull was much better written than Brutal Kunnin', with some really interesting perspective on the Big Man. The story is told primarily from the perspective of Makari, Thraka's Grot. I appreciated the idea that part of the reason for his stalled Armageddon campaign is due to Thraka's immaturity in his role as the next scion of Gork and Mork. He's shown repeatedly banging his head against the guidance of his gods. I guess he wouldn't be a proppa Ork if he didn't . Unfortunately the book continued the trend of they/them. This time however we get treated to a huffy lecture on how silly it is to be saying he/she in reference to, like, genderless creatures yall! I mean really, it's Current Year The Year of Our Emperor 40,000 people! Do better!

Dark City was fantastic. gerey already did a great writeup on it over in the Best Warhammer 40K Books thread, go read it. The only thing I'd add is that I appreciated Chris Wraight having the balls to go maximum grimdark with the ending. The good guys don't win (although a loose thread is left for further plot developments if GW is so inclined). Also holy shit it had some sweet lore bobbles. The Golden Throne is confirmed to be failing, with no fix in sight. The only people now aware of its problems are the Dark Elves (!!). The DEldar involvement (they have an interest in helping repair the Throne because it acts as a seal over the Warp tear on Terra) and ultimate plan was metal as fuck as well. Overall a great read and a perfect closeout to the Crowl trilogy.

Finally, I read ADB's Echoes of Eternity. This is the seventh and penultimate Siege of Terra book, focusing on Sanguinius' final successful defense of the Eternity Gate, the banishment of Angron from the battlefield, and the setup for the final showdown on the Spirit of Vengeance. There were a lot of cool scenes. Lotarra Sarrin is finally closed out in a satisfactory manner; we get to see Sanguinius' first meeting with the Emperor, and his first steps to transforming the Revenants Legion into the Blood Angels; and Vulkan also gets some good much-deserved screentime. Vulkan in particular was satisfying for me because he's used to knock Magnus out of the game and absolutely shit all over the execrable Graham McNeill's Fury of Magnus short story in a blatant lore retcon. I loved it.

It was a fun read but the more I see of ADB the less impressed I am. He's capable of good prose but something holds him back to being merely serviceable. One particular failing, at least in my mind, was Sanguinius' "le epic speech" to the Revenants at their introduction:

'Tism

We have this Legion, being worn down and shunned by the rest of the Crusade due to their tactics and barbarism, acting as a mirror for the War Hounds/World Eaters. But here, where the World Eaters got stuck with a psychopathic moron who couldn't give two shits for his new sons, Sanguinius loves his boys and wants to make them something better. IMO his speech could have gone something along the lines of: "My father asked much of you. Be proud of your accomplishments. Be proud of your victories. Be proud that you lived. Be proud of your brothers. Your sacrifices were not in vain. But your story will not end with you ground into dust, fit for nothing but secret histories or obliteration from memory, an embarassment for your empire. Instead the Emperor has begun a new chapter for you, through me, his son. The path we will walk will be just as hard and demanding as the old ways, but the rewards will be greater. Work for the Emperor's Crusade. Follow me, and have faith in each other. Today is not a new beginning; it is the next step on a journey that you faithfully began centuries ago. Now we continue it together." Something like that. Instead, ADB has Sanguinius go the old and tired "bros you're you're the real heroes, I'm here to serve you bros, I'll prove myself to you my sword is yours ok!". It's like reading a flowery and slightly more exciting George Bush Post-9/11 Military Rah Rah Go Team speech (credit where credit is due, ADB still does a better job of it than GW's speechwriters ).

Other serviceable areas that could have been better included Nassir Amit's closeout and the Dark Collegia's storyline. Both meh.

All in all a satisfying batch of reading with some cool lore reveals, but I think the Current Year insanity is it for me. I plan to read:
- the final Bequin novel,
- the final Siege novel, and
- the final novel in the Chris Wraight Custodes/Sisters of Silence trilogy,
and then I think I'll quit Black Library. GW has repeatedly stated that I'm just not the kind of customer they want, and I guess it's time I listened.

 

[Storyfag]

This time however we get treated to a huffy lecture on how silly it is to be saying he/she in reference to, like, genderless creatures yall! I mean really, it's Current Year The Year of Our Emperor 40,000 people! Do better!

In that case "it" should be perfectly servicable. ESPECIALLY from the xenophobic Imperial perspective.

 

[Akratus II]

'Tism

We have this Legion, being worn down and shunned by the rest of the Crusade due to their tactics and barbarism, acting as a mirror for the War Hounds/World Eaters. But here, where the World Eaters got stuck with a psychopathic moron who couldn't give two shits for his new sons, Sanguinius loves his boys and wants to make them something better. IMO his speech could have gone something along the lines of: "My father asked much of you. Be proud of your accomplishments. Be proud of your victories. Be proud that you lived. Be proud of your brothers. Your sacrifices were not in vain. But your story will not end with you ground into dust, fit for nothing but secret histories or obliteration from memory, an embarassment for your empire. Instead the Emperor has begun a new chapter for you, through me, his son. The path we will walk will be just as hard and demanding as the old ways, but the rewards will be greater. Work for the Emperor's Crusade. Follow me, and have faith in each other. Today is not a new beginning; it is the next step on a journey that you faithfully began centuries ago. Now we continue it together." Something like that. Instead, ADB has Sanguinius go the old and tired "bros you're you're the real heroes, I'm here to serve you bros, I'll prove myself to you my sword is yours ok!". It's like reading a flowery and slightly more exciting George Bush Post-9/11 Military Rah Rah Go Team speech (credit where credit is due, ADB still does a better job of it than GW's speechwriters ).

Spoiler

I think ADB simply wanted to be (perhaps overly) faithful to the old lore description of Sanguinius standing out amongst the Primarchs in that it was he himself who knelt to his Legion and pledged allegiance rather than the other way around. Which sounds great in a snippet but is harder to flesh out.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

orks are obviously masculine, retards insisting that everything is about sex while not understanding how to use a language.

 

[Parsimonious cook]

Orks even used to have females in the old lore, they lived in separate heavily fortified settlements and male orks had to fight their way in and literally conquer the bitches to prove themselves worthy of procreation. That was before the whole fungi thing.

It was pretty based.

 

[Keshik]

The interaction with Vulkan and Magnus was nice, even if ADB decided to address "Magnus did nothing wrong" memes in a book.

 

[NecroLord]

Vulkan,despite being the best Primarch bro and renown for his humanity gets so little attention in novels. Are there actually any serious and well written books about him? I know "Vulkan Lives",but it is not really a great book. Decent but not great.

Also female Orks? Fucking Heresy.

 

[Akratus II]