Incline Warhammer 40,000 Lore Thread

[Storyfag]

There were talks that they weren't truly entities but a bunch of wapr energies that became sapient or some shit, but the result is the same.

That is the Warhammer definition of "god".

 

[Mangoose]

So basically they want to impose their own insane private universe on everyone else, and it will be totally awesome unless you’re weaklings?

The Four Chaos Gods are evil gods, that's all. They cooperate because otherwise, they wouldn't be a real threat. There were talks that they weren't truly entities but a bunch of wapr energies that became sapient or some shit, but the result is the same.

Actually they are always playing the "Great Game" with each other. Essentially FFA. King of the hill. King of the kill.

It's only because of threats like the Emprah that they gang up.

This is reflected in current Kill Team rules, as Chaos Legionaries have the choice of 4 chaos gods, but since there are two sets of rivals, you only get the marks and boons from 2 of them.

Yeah so they're basically trying to kill each other. Endlessly.


Edit: Though "Chaos" really just means the warp. Or the warp means chaos. Drives you to madness, gets you possessed by daemons thing /shrug

 

[Mangoose]

One of Warhammer 40K's contradictions: Chaos is organised. The bodies of it's followers are organised into cells, organs, systems. The demons are themselves organised into species and clades. Nurgle has to invent plagues, test them, see if they work, according to the natural physical laws of reality. The Chaos Space Marine warbands are organised into ranks, structures and regimented armies. The engine of a Chaos Space Marine "Rhino" is organised to perform internal combustion, with systematic chemistry and physics underpinning it. The bolter rounds in their guns are an ordered shell of metal, surrounding explosive materials, kept separate and deliniated until impact. Demons are not 'random', or else nothing would spill out of warp portals, except arbitrary goo.

Would it perhaps be more to say that Chaos Gods represents the forces that 'lead to entropy', but are not Chaos itself?

Look at Dungeons & Dragons for comparison: the demons and devils were designed using the same random generation table and as a result have no cohesive motifs or visual identity. Artwork of battles in the Blood War look like a chaotic mess of random designs and it's impossible to determine which side is which without memorizing the individual designs beforehand.

Devils are Lawful Evil.
Demons are Chaotic Evil.

Have you not played Torment?

 

[RaggleFraggle]

One of Warhammer 40K's contradictions: Chaos is organised. The bodies of it's followers are organised into cells, organs, systems. The demons are themselves organised into species and clades. Nurgle has to invent plagues, test them, see if they work, according to the natural physical laws of reality. The Chaos Space Marine warbands are organised into ranks, structures and regimented armies. The engine of a Chaos Space Marine "Rhino" is organised to perform internal combustion, with systematic chemistry and physics underpinning it. The bolter rounds in their guns are an ordered shell of metal, surrounding explosive materials, kept separate and deliniated until impact. Demons are not 'random', or else nothing would spill out of warp portals, except arbitrary goo.

Would it perhaps be more to say that Chaos Gods represents the forces that 'lead to entropy', but are not Chaos itself?

Look at Dungeons & Dragons for comparison: the demons and devils were designed using the same random generation table and as a result have no cohesive motifs or visual identity. Artwork of battles in the Blood War look like a chaotic mess of random designs and it's impossible to determine which side is which without memorizing the individual designs beforehand.

Devils are Lawful Evil.
Demons are Chaotic Evil.

Have you not played Torment?

I have. That’s why I take issue with the way they’re designed. In practice, they’re just a random assortment of chimerical monsters with no significant difference between them beyond hit dice and some irrelevant resistances.

Whereas Warhammer chaos demons actually have distinct aesthetics, tactics, etc. The armies of Khorne have distinctive cohesive aesthetics from the armies of Nurgle.

If you’re having trouble understanding my point, then here’s some articles on the subject:
https://web.archive.org/web/2009060...s.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070924&pf=true
http://alexandraerin.dreamwidth.org/553757.html
http://alexandraerin.dreamwidth.org/58190.html
http://4eyedmonster.blogspot.com/2014/08/so-many-monsters-other-d.html
https://web.archive.org/web/2019102...m/2012/09/d-demon-lords-and-darkheritage.html
http://blogofholding.com/?p=6258

Or this image:

 

[Mangoose]

One of Warhammer 40K's contradictions: Chaos is organised. The bodies of it's followers are organised into cells, organs, systems. The demons are themselves organised into species and clades. Nurgle has to invent plagues, test them, see if they work, according to the natural physical laws of reality. The Chaos Space Marine warbands are organised into ranks, structures and regimented armies. The engine of a Chaos Space Marine "Rhino" is organised to perform internal combustion, with systematic chemistry and physics underpinning it. The bolter rounds in their guns are an ordered shell of metal, surrounding explosive materials, kept separate and deliniated until impact. Demons are not 'random', or else nothing would spill out of warp portals, except arbitrary goo.

Would it perhaps be more to say that Chaos Gods represents the forces that 'lead to entropy', but are not Chaos itself?

Look at Dungeons & Dragons for comparison: the demons and devils were designed using the same random generation table and as a result have no cohesive motifs or visual identity. Artwork of battles in the Blood War look like a chaotic mess of random designs and it's impossible to determine which side is which without memorizing the individual designs beforehand.

Devils are Lawful Evil.
Demons are Chaotic Evil.

Have you not played Torment?

Whereas Warhammer chaos demons actually have distinct aesthetics, tactics, etc. The armies of Khorne have distinctive cohesive aesthetics from the armies of Nurgle.

(A) "Chaos" is a term that really means "Warp entities." And these warp entities are each a human soul.
(B) Cohesion because each one represents one of four categories of human sin/suffering.
(C) Cohesion because to accomplish anything - especially militarily - you need cohesion.
(D) In reality - (simplified) thermodynamics - the victory of chaos = complete entropy = complete lack of energy, a frozen universe. We're not talking a stagnant setting where there people do the same thing over and over again. We're talking complete universal death because nothing can happen.

And it's inevitable.

See, individualism and cohesion are not mutually exclusive. An individual cannot cause massive - the individual needs an organized group to accomplish a goal At the very least, a coalition.. Because your enemy is an organized group.

Thus cohesion is a means for individualism.

Hell, consider the concept of civilization. Of a nation, a city, of anything. To be free from the risk of might-beats-right chaotic neutral, some sort of organization/society is necessary. They need each other.

Of course, there's also the concept that we can't even define the Warp. We don't know how sentient the gods are. They are essentially metaphysical xenos. We of the material world simply cannot understand the non-material - nor can the immaterial exactly understand the material.

Unless you are an incarnation of both man and divine of course.

 

[Tyranicon]

In 40k Chaos = dumb chaotic evil to the maxxxx.

Is there even a single chaos warlord who isn't some kind of cartoonish, mustache-twirling, maniacal-laughing villain? Fabius Bile maybe, but he's the mad scientist trope and that's pretty close.

You can't be orderly if the warp makes you utterly retarded.

 

[Akratus II]

In 40k Chaos = dumb chaotic evil to the maxxxx.

Is there even a single chaos warlord who isn't some kind of cartoonish, mustache-twirling, maniacal-laughing villain? Fabius Bile maybe, but he's the mad scientist trope and that's pretty close.

You can't be orderly if the warp makes you utterly retarded.

Lufgt Huron, Warsmith Honsou, Iskandar Khayon(although his writing has other issues), Lorgar.

Of course Lorgar becomes a Daemon Prince though and Lufgt Huron is more of a renegade than chaos worshipper, I believe?

 

[lightbane]

You can't be orderly if the warp makes you utterly retarded.

IT's hard to keep your head straight when the warp is constantly flooding your brain with literal corruptive energies.

 

[Tyranicon]

You can't be orderly if the warp makes you utterly retarded.

IT's hard to keep your head straight when the warp is constantly flooding your brain with literal corruptive energies.

To it feels to chew 5 Warp gum.

Kill kill kill kill kill

Fart some plague gas

Here, wear this monocle and play some chess

Suck the tentacle, yessss suck it

 

[Caim]

In 40k Chaos = dumb chaotic evil to the maxxxx.

Is there even a single chaos warlord who isn't some kind of cartoonish, mustache-twirling, maniacal-laughing villain? Fabius Bile maybe, but he's the mad scientist trope and that's pretty close.

You can't be orderly if the warp makes you utterly retarded.

In Fantasy they had, at one point, technically, Settra the Imperishable, who got everything he could ever want from the Chaos Gods with no strings attached, if only he struck down Nagash in their service.

Except, you know, Settra does not serve.

 

[Mangoose]

You can't be orderly if the warp makes you utterly retarded.

IT's hard to keep your head straight when the warp is constantly flooding your brain with literal corruptive energies.

I think the point of Chaos is drawn from the Lovecraftian idea that once you think something, you're already insane. It's not about dabbling or slowly being exposed. No, you're buttfucked every time you know anything more about the Warp.

Except 40k Chaos is literal about it. Just like 40k makes a lot of metaphysical shit literal - how the Emprah really DOES have legitimacy in being called a god, how the Inquisition for example REAL daemonic possession, as opposed to "reality's history" of "witches" being superstition. (Even Chaos is Lovecraft literal because the Warp is filled with beings just as god-like as the Lovecraftian deities - they're so powerful they don't even consider you as an individual. They just ignore you. In 40k, honestly, they maintain the question of whether the Warp is sentient or not. Aka is it being anthromorphized?

Because, remember, the Warp is simply our emotions. It's us. The "Chaos Gods" don't even exist without sentient emotions forming them. When you fight Chaos you are fighting your metaphysical self.

Stop thinking like these are real nominal factions and there are real categories in 40k with official canon that strongly cements ideas. For one, things change according to what makes $$$ lol.

But seriously 40k is just tongue-in-cheek absurdity to the max.

That's the whole point of 40k. Taking things to an absurd level but with good self-justification. I mean, the concept of Endless War makes perfect sense, since there are enough enemy xenos that good guys can't trust the to be good... From pragmatic and strategic reasoning. That's essentially why Eldar and Men didn't hang out together - everybody thinks, by the God-Emperor/Khaine lol, these guys might be more lying xenos assholes.

 

[Mangoose]

Lo and behold, Guilliman actually has started a romance with the Yncarnation of the Elven future Goddess.

Guilliman is literally the best administrator, including politics. Ethical and balanced politics. (What Horus had wanted with the Interex)

I mean Guilliman literally admits the Emprah is becoming less human, which makes him grumpyish, but then still respects the Emprah for what he's doing to keep civilization going. Human or not. Level-headed. Like Dorn surprisingly was in this series.

It's funny... These last trilogy are like Dan Abnett's worst. Yet in the Horus Heresy novels he's given us: Horus Rising, Prospero Burns, Guilliman being awesome again in Know No Fear, Saturnine.

We had some nice showings from Graham McNeill (his Iron Warrior shit is actually of decent quality outside of just for 40k). False Gods, Angel Exerminatus, Thousand Sons is a pretty good showing, no?

ADB I don't think was that bad (ADB is better with the subplots/banter in the infantry stuff - pretty good with things like dialogue. Gaunt's Ghosts except as insane Night Lords).

Chris Wraight from Scars to Warhawk.

Altogether it seems they all had plenty of room in terms of type of narrative, merely limited by the setting and focal points. But the range of quality matches up close to what would come out of Black Library had there not been the Horus Heresy setting "limit."

It's all about the quality of the author.

(Then again I didn't expect Konraz Curze from Guy Haley, the banal banal guy.)

 

[lightbane]

Lo and behold, Guilliman actually has started a romance with the Yncarnation of the Elven future Goddess.

So, the memes were true? Absolutely heretical!
Weren't eldar more xenophobic than humans to boot?

 

[Mangoose]

Lo and behold, Guilliman actually has started a romance with the Yncarnation of the Elven future Goddess.

So, the memes were true? Absolutely heretical!
Weren't eldar more xenophobic than humans to boot?

Nah not a real romance. But seriously just to even work together is very odd. It's reasonable. Which is why it's odd. Lol.

I'm pretty sure they're all equally xenophobic, given that the setting justifies xenophobia Lol.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

 

[Storyfag]

Lo and behold, Guilliman actually has started a romance with the Yncarnation of the Elven future Goddess.

So, the memes were true? Absolutely heretical!
Weren't eldar more xenophobic than humans to boot?

Nah not a real romance. But seriously just to even work together is very odd. It's reasonable. Which is why it's odd. Lol.

I'm pretty sure they're all equally xenophobic, given that the setting justifies xenophobia Lol.

The Eld*r will stab Guilliman in the back. Then the Emperor will be all "I told you so".

 

[Akratus II]

(Then again I didn't expect Konraz Curze from Guy Haley, the banal banal guy.)

Hey cut him some slack. He did Death of Integrity and Valedor.

 

[Mangoose]

(Then again I didn't expect Konraz Curze from Guy Haley, the banal banal guy.)

Hey cut him some slack. He did Death of Integrity and Valedor.

Oh yeah? I'll check those out.

It's just that he gets so mediocre/generic with Eldar and completely fails to make Corax interesting.

But I haven't checked those out so I will. I have seen that different authors have different sub-genre talents.

 

[Mangoose]

Lo and behold, Guilliman actually has started a romance with the Yncarnation of the Elven future Goddess.

So, the memes were true? Absolutely heretical!
Weren't eldar more xenophobic than humans to boot?

Nah not a real romance. But seriously just to even work together is very odd. It's reasonable. Which is why it's odd. Lol.

I'm pretty sure they're all equally xenophobic, given that the setting justifies xenophobia Lol.

The Eld*r will stab Guilliman in the back. Then the Emperor will be all "I told you so".

In TTS form.

Anyway, I dunno if anyone noticed the loose ends in terms of the Emprah's "death."

The main normies, Malcador and I forget who else, they know that scientifically speaking the throne will drain on the Emprah's energy just as much as it regenerates it lol.

But then there's Euphrati Keeler at the end. If you have read a book that includes Saints.. that's again 40k's tongue-in-cheek of YES THEY ARE FUCKING REAL AND DO REAL SHIT. They will fucking resurrect in another body hundred years later (obv talking about the Beti).

Not to mention, from examples clearly "faith" is anathema to warp (or perhaps to the chaotic elements of the warp).*

And then there's the loose Emprah shard of compassion that the Emprah cut away from himself.

Put those together, we're back to "I don't fucking now what is right, what is wrong, or if there is a right or wrong"

Yay 40k.

I seriously love it. It's like taking the worst of the worst... Witch hunts, Exterminatus, etc. And sincerely making it morally justified because of an insane setting.

Hell, when an Inquisitor shoots a possessed human... that's called fucking mercy.

I love that absurdity. (Maybe because I respect reason-based-authority more than authority-for-the-sake-of-authority?)

*This always gets me into the weird question of... What about good emotions?

 

[lightbane]

*This always gets me into the weird question of... What about good emotions?

Imperial Saints say hi.

 

[Mangoose]

*This always gets me into the weird question of... What about good emotions?

Imperial Saints say hi.

Wow way to skip the rest of my post.

But given this is the 40k thread, whatever man lolol

 

[REhorror]

So I heard there's actual official confirmation that the Emprah is a god now?

I wonder how the 40K athiest "fans" are coping with this?

 

[Mangoose]

So I heard there's actual official confirmation that the Emprah is a god now?

I wonder how the 40K athiest "fans" are coping with this?

Yes and no.

 

[Tyranicon]

So I heard there's actual official confirmation that the Emprah is a god now?

I wonder how the 40K athiest "fans" are coping with this?

There's no real difference between extremely powerful warp/warp-using entity and a god in 40k, just different levels of how OP you are.

This has been true basically since the setting moved past 1st edition.

Unless GW for some reason committed ultra blasphemy by directly claiming the Emperor as the Abrahamic creator god, I don't think atheists really care.

 

[REhorror]

So I heard there's actual official confirmation that the Emprah is a god now?

I wonder how the 40K athiest "fans" are coping with this?

Yes and no.

So what are they going to do?

It's hilarious because Warhammer 40K went from muh edgy atheism Chaotic magick into hopium Holy angels and spirits.