Incline Warhammer 40,000 Lore Thread

[Mangoose]

e understood that he was essentially on a timer to win after stealing whatever fire he stole from them to begin the primarch project.

I never liked that plot-twist that Emprah stole from/made a pact with the Big 4 to make the Primarchs, as not only it rigs the game from the start, it makes him look stupid.

Well it does show why the Big 4 consider Emprah a threat. First, that He was willing to do it. Secondly, that he beat them.

And I'm pretty sure that if there were a pact he broke it. In other words he, one way or another, stole the Big 4's powers against their will.

It doesn't maek the Emprah look stupid. It makes him look like a conniving thieving bastard who is always successful.

Unlike Horus when Horus went to Molech, where he basically got possessed.

But

Granted, that seems to be the point of the HH series...

is the truth.

If you write about the Horus Heresy you can't avoid this stuff. You can't avoid "daddy issues" because it's literally a son trying to kill his father. Just saying, if you don't have daddy issues, you'd probably lock him away or something. But GRAHHH DKILLLL.

I mean it's hard to judge these books when the setting is what limits it.

That being said, if you pick and choose books instead of following the whole novel series (like an idiot), and you set aside the setting a bit.. There's still plenty of quality. Abnett, obviously. Not to mention Chris Wraight came to fame in this Horus Heresy series. You also got Graham McNeill pushing out good stuff. TBH not too different from their regular 40k books, outside of setting limits, as said authors have had all sorts of freedom in terms of genre and individual stories. And any good author can write a good story in any setting - as long as they have as much freedom as they can get.

 

[Mangoose]

While we cant know that he didnt kill two sons before Horus, we do know that all records were scrubbed. His compassion might have already been tested long before the little shit decided to bring home his violent new friends to trash his home after his other idiot son ruined his latest hobby project with a completely unnecessary phonecall. Ungrateful little shits of a neglectful dad who didnt properly prepare them before sending them out for milk

He is literally the worst father ever.
Some of his sons were WAY better fathers and father figures than him - Sanguinius, Vulkan, Roboute (when he stops being a cold, all professional like dude for even a second), Magnus (before he became the supremely arrogant, know it all douchebag extraordinaire Daemon Prince of Tzeentch).

I could also argue his sons were bigger failures than he - in particular Konrad Kurze and Angron who were sick fucks.

lol

Konrad Kurze was mentally ill. It's clear that he had DID. In fact,

Russ leaned forwards in his throne, his eyes narrowed. 'Can I kill him? Can I kill the Warmaster?' Before Loken could answer, Russ went on. 'In the old days, in the Crusade I thought I could beat most of my brothers. Maybe not Sanguinius. In him there is a fine blend of skill and fury. He is a baresark in angel's garb. Or the Night Haunter, for he has the heedless power of the insane.

Guy Haley. Wolfsbane (Kindle Locations 591-595). Kindle Edition.

Notice that Russ believes only Sanginius and Konrad are superior to him in terms of combat. Note he actually does not question whether Russ can beat Horus - Russ was worried instead that Horus gained new powers that would have to make Russ re-evalute that.

As for Angron.. his slavemasters actually took out parts of his brain and replaced them. He didn't merely have the Butchers' Nails. The shit they stuffed into Angron's brain is what lets his brain work. And I assume there's no way to regrow said brain or find a replaceent. That's why the Emprah can't cure Angron. It would kill him.

Essentially you're criticiizng the two primarchs that had absolutely no control over their psyche from the beginning... When is protected by medical immunity.

 

[Mangoose]

He also has the same ego issues and other personality flaws as the Old Ones as far as we can see, after all it was their stupid shit that turned the Warp into the shithole realm it is now. He knows how dangerous and ultimately unstable the warp is, and what does he do? The same fucking thing by making living weapons with a portion of them permanently tuned to the warp.

Not exactly.

The Emperor truly believes that there is almost 0% survival of the human race. He also believes he is the one who can rule humanity - he's closest to real divinity.. and everybody already agrees lol. But for all intents and purposes, the Emprah is playing completely pragmatically.

The conclusion at then of the HH series is that the fault of the Emprah was impatience.

While he was in the Vengeful Spirit heading towards Horus, the Emprah was building up immense warp powers and the chaos gods were hinting that it was not Horus who would become the 5th chaos god but the Emprah.

The Emprah at the end of the book (Victory/Death/Book2) literally makes the decision to abandon said warp power hungriness as He was persuaded to realize what he was becoming "Hey you're a god now, so why don't you go see what you're gonna be like lol."

He knows how dangerous and ultimately unstable the warp is, and what does he do? The same fucking thing by making living weapons with a portion of them permanently tuned to the warp.

(A) The Emprah is a warp entity. He is on par with the Chaos Gods, except the Emprah has not succumbed to Chaos or any self-interest involved with the warp.
(B) Said living weapons of the Warp still formed the current Imperium, which btw has way more populated, compliant worlds than destroyed worlds. Well, at the very least, there are goddamn plenty of planets/societies/etc in the 41st millennium.
(C) Corax has gained warp-like powers in the warp. He can turn into a bunch of ravens, manipulate shadows, and has metal wings that literally work as if Metal Sanguinius. Lorgar has testified that Corax and his powers are not at all related to Daemon.
(D) Currently the Lion is teleporting through the Warp via LSD dreams of the Matter of Britain.
(D) It's actually Saints that are questioned whether they are the Emprah's Daemon Princes.
(E) The Emprah saved Guilliman's ass from Mortarion by the Emprah literally intervening on his behalf.

In any case, there is a qusetion going around as to what "Faith" is and how worshipping the self-avowed-atheist God-Emperor actually works to harm Chaos.

 

[Socrates]

Damn you ADB for writing that atrocious part in "The First Heretic" where the Emperor humiliates Lorgar and his entire Legion and practically begs him to turn to Chaos...
What the fuck...

TBF Lorgar had been warned like multiple times that his method of compliance was unacceptable and Lorgar in his great autism believed it to be a test of faith from BigE.

Blame Erebus then blame Lorgar's autism.

Actually, what happened was that Lorgar always needs something to worship. He worshiped the Emperor all his life and at this "breaking point" he found out his whole faith was wrong. He found out that the God-Emperor he worshiped was a lie. And so Lorgar, in his worship-ful-ness, had to find something new to worship. Something "true."

No human "needs" to worship anything. Lorgar's ego more than anything was destroyed after his punishment on Monarchia. He ignored the constant reprimands he received over the course of the great crusade and after those reprimands had past, he had still not learned his lesson. He had to be made an example of.

The imperial truth was the standard for brining new worlds into compliance and it was non-negotiable. He turned every world he touched into planets of raging fanatics and obliterated anyone who didn't accept his bat-shit crazy interpretation of the Emperor's divinity.

In fact Lorgar doesn't follow Chaos out of personal interest but rather the fact that they are the most God-like/Divine entities he could find. That they are evil in fact doesn't matter to Lorgar because what matters for him is the "Truth." It's in fact why Lorgar is militant - to spread his religious Truth is a moral duty, no matter what the Truth.

Lorgar is simply following the divine version of might makes right. He essentially would condemn the whole universe to death if his God's demanded he do so. You do have a point with some of the earlier primarchs that their sanity was questionable but Lorgar was ALWAYS conscious of what he was doing and he didn't care.

Lorgar was always a twisted, evil son of a bitch from the very beginning.

 

[Mangoose]

Damn you ADB for writing that atrocious part in "The First Heretic" where the Emperor humiliates Lorgar and his entire Legion and practically begs him to turn to Chaos...
What the fuck...

TBF Lorgar had been warned like multiple times that his method of compliance was unacceptable and Lorgar in his great autism believed it to be a test of faith from BigE.

Blame Erebus then blame Lorgar's autism.

Actually, what happened was that Lorgar always needs something to worship. He worshiped the Emperor all his life and at this "breaking point" he found out his whole faith was wrong. He found out that the God-Emperor he worshiped was a lie. And so Lorgar, in his worship-ful-ness, had to find something new to worship. Something "true."

No human "needs" to worship anything.

Lorgar isn't human.

He's a warp entity.

Lorgar is simply following the divine version of might makes right. He essentially would condemn the whole universe to death if his God's demanded he do so. You do have a point with some of the earlier primarchs that their sanity was questionable but Lorgar was ALWAYS conscious of what he was doing and he didn't care.

Nope, it's been repeated dozens of times that Lorgar wants to spread his truth.

Lorgar also believes in partnership and synthesis between human and daemon. He hates one-sided possession and being controlled by the warp, which is why Lorgar treats Horus with disgust in terms of dealing.

Finally, Lorgar wrote the ONLY religious scripture on the Emperor - Lectitio Divinitus. By 41k it was Lorgar who switched the Imperium from Atheism to God-Emperor-Worship.

But after reneging on the Emperor, what does Lorgar do? He finds new gods and immediately starts writing "The Book of Lorgar", which is scripture for worshiping the Chaos Gods.

He literally is personification of a zealous priest.

Lorgar was always a twisted, evil son of a bitch from the very beginning.

Nope, Lorgar grew up and did everything quite naive and innocent.

It's Kor-Phaeron and Erebus that

Just look at Argel Tal. Argel Tal was Lorgar's ultimate example of the partnership-synthesis of warp entity and material entity.

Then Erebus came and totally fucked that up.

Not to mention that every time Lorgar is offered the choice (by Chaos) of attacking Guilliman vs attacking the Emperor... Lorgar is like wtf I don't care about Guilliman. I just want to spread my Truth. In fact he was offended when Guilliman accused Lorgar of wanting rvenge on Calth.

The real weakness of Lorgar is that he's a pansy.

 

[lightbane]

Well it does show why the Big 4 consider Emprah a threat. First, that He was willing to do it. Secondly, that he beat them.

And I'm pretty sure that if there were a pact he broke it. In other words he, one way or another, stole the Big 4's powers against their will.

I liked it more when the Emprah made the Primarchs out of his own genius rather than taking a bargain/stealing from the Chaos Gods, as that means he's dooming himself. Bargaining with the forces of hell, the house always wins, stuff like that.

That being said, if you pick and choose books instead of following the whole novel series (like an idiot), and you set aside the setting a bit.. There's still plenty of quality. Abnett, obviously.

Agree, although I should start reading wh40k novels again, I got fed up a bit with the setting and it's getting dumber every year in every new edition. I wonder how will the whole thing end. With the Emprah/Necrons destroying the warp in a way that blows up half of the Galaxy or something?

 

[Mangoose]

Well it does show why the Big 4 consider Emprah a threat. First, that He was willing to do it. Secondly, that he beat them.

And I'm pretty sure that if there were a pact he broke it. In other words he, one way or another, stole the Big 4's powers against their will.

I liked it more when the Emprah made the Primarchs out of his own genius rather than taking a bargain/stealing from the Chaos Gods, as that means he's dooming himself. Bargaining with the forces of hell, the house always wins, stuff like that.

What do you mean he's dooming himself?

He brazenly stole and broke promises right in front of the Chaos Gods and they couldn't do jack shit while he ran off. Tzeentch completely taken off guard.

He's been using the Warp for millennia. He was born a psyker the beginning of civilization of Earth.

The forces of hell are SCARED OF HIM. They call him the anathema. Their deadliest threat. That's why they wanted to corrupt the Emperor into chaos.

The point is - with proper wisdom and restrictions you can use the warp. E.g. The traditions of the White Scars and Space Wolves. The Wolves of Fenris are actually warp entities.

Saints literally exist. At the end of "The End and the Death" you have Saint Euphrati Keeler praying to the Emprah while Malcador tells the primarchs there is no more hope. And note that Saints are usually killers. See Saint Beati killing a baneblade by hopping on it with a sword. Then healing everything everyone everywehre. While talking to everyone at once as if in a personal conversation with everybody at once.

What I described is the use of the Warp (..or so some/others think)

That being said, if you pick and choose books instead of following the whole novel series (like an idiot), and you set aside the setting a bit.. There's still plenty of quality. Abnett, obviously.

Agree, although I should start reading wh40k novels again, I got fed up a bit with the setting and it's getting dumber every year in every new edition. I wonder how will the whole thing end. With the Emprah/Necrons destroying the warp in a way that blows up half of the Galaxy or something?

Nah I doubt it would end because the charm of the setting is the absurdity of the situation. At least for me. The concept of winning is heresy.

 

[lightbane]

What do you mean he's dooming himself?

He brazenly stole and broke promises right in front of the Chaos Gods and they couldn't do jack shit while he ran off. Tzeentch completely taken off guard.

Fair enough. I meant that I preferred it when the Primarchs were the Emprah's own idea, not Chaos' own.

Nah I doubt it would end because the charm of the setting is the absurdity of the situation. At least for me. The concept of winning is heresy.

I mean, things are moving to a conclusion of some sort lore-wise. No idea which one, but it can't go on forever, right?

 

[Tyranicon]

All this discussion reminds me that I really like the broad-strokes fleshing out of the Horus Heresy but don't really like the characterization of some characters and how soap opera-y it can get.

 

[Mangoose]

What do you mean he's dooming himself?

He brazenly stole and broke promises right in front of the Chaos Gods and they couldn't do jack shit while he ran off. Tzeentch completely taken off guard.

Fair enough. I meant that I preferred it when the Primarchs were the Emprah's own idea, not Chaos' own.

They were still the Emprah's ideas but he used warp energy as a medium.

Essentially the Emprah again making daemon princes of his own. Hah.

Nah I doubt it would end because the charm of the setting is the absurdity of the situation. At least for me. The concept of winning is heresy.

I mean, things are moving to a conclusion of some sort lore-wise. No idea which one, but it can't go on forever, right?

If it ends then there's no more reason to stay with the setting XD

 

[Mangoose]

All this discussion reminds me that I really like the broad-strokes fleshing out of the Horus Heresy but don't really like the characterization of some characters and how soap opera-y it can get.

Yeah I've only read.. a dozen? Basically the ones that everybody recommends. And it seemed the authors were allowed pretty self-contained stories.. So it's just "pick the creme of the crop" just as any other entertainment medium XD

 

[Beastro]

So for shits and gigles i removed the black library from an inventory.

Are they serious bro? I guess in the grim darkness of the universe there is only greed i can't believe they produced so much shit. I was looking at the horus heresy series and i stumbled on this pic displaying the supposed reading order:

WTF is this. I'm getting cross eyed just by looking at it.

I like the setting but come on this is a bit much don't they think? This is like romance novels for nerds at this point.

I dread to even look at the star wars library.

This is why people should just read the WH40k wikis and save yourself a ton of time and lots of money.

 

[Shig]

save yourself a ton of time and lots of money.

Wrong hobby to be trying to save money in.

 

[Caim]

So for shits and gigles i removed the black library from an inventory.

Are they serious bro? I guess in the grim darkness of the universe there is only greed i can't believe they produced so much shit. I was looking at the horus heresy series and i stumbled on this pic displaying the supposed reading order:

WTF is this. I'm getting cross eyed just by looking at it.

I like the setting but come on this is a bit much don't they think? This is like romance novels for nerds at this point.

I dread to even look at the star wars library.

This is why people should just read the WH40k wikis and save yourself a ton of time and lots of money.

Here's a more up to date reading order supported with arguments:

https://www.heresyomnibus.com/

 

[Mangoose]

So for shits and gigles i removed the black library from an inventory.

Are they serious bro? I guess in the grim darkness of the universe there is only greed i can't believe they produced so much shit. I was looking at the horus heresy series and i stumbled on this pic displaying the supposed reading order:

WTF is this. I'm getting cross eyed just by looking at it.

I like the setting but come on this is a bit much don't they think? This is like romance novels for nerds at this point.

I dread to even look at the star wars library.

This is why people should just read the WH40k wikis and save yourself a ton of time and lots of money.

I get most of my lore from 1d4chan XD

 

[Gromlintroid]

I just read them in release order like a normal person

 

[Mangoose]

I just read them in release order like a normal person

If you do this please do NOT remove from inventory.

As an unhypocritical 40k fan... Well, GW is really close to a supposed "bourgeois as fuck."

Yeah, even real life 40k is absurd to the point where it actually justifies Marx.

In any case, here's some nice dialogue that explains why 40K is why it is:

‘Don’t do this,’ came a voice from behind.

Talos turned to face the archregent. ‘No? Why should I not?’

‘It… I…’ the old man trailed off.

‘Strange.’ Talos shook his head. ‘Your kind never has an answer to that
question.’

Yes this is ABD. Outside of the Horus Heresy series, he doesn't do any cringey stuff like Emprah-Lorgar. The thing is that ADB is a lot better when he doesn't take things seriously, so that kinda puts him in a stifle when he's writing the canon level of HH... In a way you can see this in Betrayer, the main canon Lorgar and Angron are portrayed very much faggy, whereas his Kharn-ArgelTal (-Erebus) is fine as it has no canon control.

The Night Lords series is as if the Band of Brothers were a grimdark yet comedic, dysfunctional to the point of aimlessness but completely capable of causing massive assrape through unconventional means.

Helsreach has Grimaldus, who is one of the Black Library Loyalist Space Marines who manages to come off as "bro-tastic."

Emperor's Gift is one of the better Grey Knights books.

Just avoid Failbaddon shit.

You could always just not remove from inventory if you don't trust me. On principle I have no interest in advocate wealth redistribution to GW.

 

[Hag]

All this discussion reminds me that I really like the broad-strokes fleshing out of the Horus Heresy but don't really like the characterization of some characters and how soap opera-y it can get.

When I got involved in 40k last millennium the Horus Heresy was barely talked at all. It was an almost forgotten event surrounded by mystery (and not least the two missing Astartes chapters). Primarchs and the Emperor, and the battle for Terra was the stuff of legends. Felt good.

 

[Shig]

1d4chan

RIP to a legend.

 

[Caim]

1d4chan

RIP to a legend.

What has fallen may rise again.

https://1d6chan.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page

 

[Tyranicon]

All this discussion reminds me that I really like the broad-strokes fleshing out of the Horus Heresy but don't really like the characterization of some characters and how soap opera-y it can get.

When I got involved in 40k last millennium the Horus Heresy was barely talked at all. It was an almost forgotten event surrounded by mystery (and not least the two missing Astartes chapters). Primarchs and the Emperor, and the battle for Terra was the stuff of legends. Felt good.

Yeah same for me, I got started around 3rd ed. 40k was super cool for a younger me because it had all this tryhard, grimdark lore and it was good. It was also, imo, one of the best editions because it hit that sweet spot between the metal punk up to 11 aesthetic, but balanced by somber gothic tones. Also artwork by John Blanche.

I remember the community generally being excited for the Horus Heresy books because 30k was when a lot of shit in the lore went down and it was kept vague for the longest time. And then the books dropped and opinion was split.

 

[Caim]

All this discussion reminds me that I really like the broad-strokes fleshing out of the Horus Heresy but don't really like the characterization of some characters and how soap opera-y it can get.

When I got involved in 40k last millennium the Horus Heresy was barely talked at all. It was an almost forgotten event surrounded by mystery (and not least the two missing Astartes chapters). Primarchs and the Emperor, and the battle for Terra was the stuff of legends. Felt good.

Yeah same for me, I got started around 3rd ed. 40k was super cool for a younger me because it had all this tryhard, grimdark lore and it was good. It was also, imo, one of the best editions because it hit that sweet spot between the metal punk up to 11 aesthetic, but balanced by somber gothic tones. Also artwork by John Blanche.

I remember the community generally being excited for the Horus Heresy books because 30k was when a lot of shit in the lore went down and it was kept vague for the longest time. And then the books dropped and opinion was split.

I too remember the time where all the lore was contained in the Index Astartes. The broad strokes were still there, it's just that the books have been filling in the blank spaces with the grace and tact of a five year old with a bucket of paint.

 

[Mangoose]

1d4chan

RIP to a legend.

What has fallen may rise again.

https://1d6chan.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page

also 2d4chan and 1d4chann XD

 

[Caim]

1d4chan

RIP to a legend.

What has fallen may rise again.

https://1d6chan.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page

also 2d4chan and 1d4chann XD

2d4chan is a mirror from late last year, which cannot be edited. Dunno about 1d4chann, but this one seems to have at least some promise.

 

[Mangoose]

1d4chan

RIP to a legend.

What has fallen may rise again.

https://1d6chan.miraheze.org/wiki/Main_Page

also 2d4chan and 1d4chann XD

2d4chan is a mirror from late last year, which cannot be edited. Dunno about 1d4chann, but this one seems to have at least some promise.

All of these are backups I think.