Unofficial Arcanum Patch (Original Thread)

[Drog Black Tooth]

No, dear Qwinn, we're not THAT stupid.

And if you did care enough to look you could have noticed that there was a quite large discussion on this subject a few pages ago and there are several entries in the changelog related to this quest.

 

[Qwinn]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend I didn't go through all 83 pages before reporting bugs I found, guess I should before adding anything else like this.

I brought it up cause I didn't actually see any dialogue options in the game when talking to him, and I thought I'd done everything (finding out about Rorry, etc.) I thought I'd even tried talking to the ogre after reading the delivery note, but I guess not.

Sorry to waste your time.

Qwinn

 

[Drog Black Tooth]

The search function still works, I know it's not perfect, but please try it before posting your "amazing" discoveries.

The discussion on the painting quest starts here.

 

[Qwinn]

I just checked it. And okay, after reading the thread discussion about it, the reason I was excited about it and didn't look further was because from what I actually saw in game, I still think it's a bit broken the way it's implemented. And I absolutely, totally understand your desire not to -add- things like dialogue to get things working, but I think there's a healthy way to do it where you don't have to add stuff other than condition checks, which as you noted were already broken anyway, and it additionally strikes me as more plausible that this was the way it was intended.

As Cogar pointed out, it doesn't make sense to me either that the only way you can solve it via dialogue is if you look at the note from the dark elf delivery quest and know to mention the painting. Having seen the newspaper about it doesn't explain how you'd make the connection at all, it'd be a rather implausible wild guess. The only way you CAN truly know about the connection between the address and the painting is to be given the list by the doorman and then getting the address from the Hall of Records, and yet that much more plausible possibility doesn't work.

When I saw that in game, it seemed broken. Still does. Would still have seemed broken if I'd seen the conversation about it, and would still be bringing it up.

Anyway, a constructive way to solve it without having to add dialogue, I think, would be to have the "I'm here for the painting" response available as a response to the half-ogre's "I believe you have the wrong house, sir. Perhaps you'd better leave.", skipping over the whole note thing. Make that response only come up if you've researched Rorry in the hall of records, which should mean you -do- know the connection between the painting and the address. That way you don't have to add any dialogue, and it's more coherent.

Anyways. That is all.

Qwinn

EDIT: Actually, lemme add this.

The note+newspaper isn't -so- implausible that I think you necessarily need to get rid of it. I think that's a reasonable potential solution, though I'd say the second step asking about the painting should require -both- having read the paper and a pretty high INT score to make the wild guess.

I just don't think that it makes sense that the note+newspaper way should work without the Hall of Records way also working, since the Hall of Records way is much more plausible. Pretty much any combination of the two methods working or not working makes sense except the way it is now, with the less plausible way working and the more plausible way not working.

Oh yeah, methinks the Madame telling you the connection between the two should work too, via the same method of having the "I'm here for the painting" line come up immediately. Forgot about that one. Hrm, wait, that would let you give the "I'm here for the painting" line, but not the "Relax, Rorry sent me" line. Maybe the only way you should be able to get it via reading the note is if you read the note -and- the Madame told you the painting was there?

 

[Drog Black Tooth]

Thank you for taking effort in writing such elaborate suggestions. I will have to think them over. I'd also encourage everyone to comment on this matter as well, since we need to implement such a solution that would be acceptable by most people. The quest is rather broken at the moment, since the solution is quite hard to guess, but I'm not sure if this quest should be changed any further in the UAP, since it may very well be considered custom content, not a bug fix. However, we can always include such changes in the Extra Content module, so let's continue the debate. I'm open to all suggestions.

 

[Qwinn]

Drog has asked me to repost this PM I sent him here, so here goes. It's gone through a few edits since the first posting.



Here's my suggestion for that dialogue tree. No dialogue needs to be added. Doing it in IE convention cause that's what I'm used to, haven't worked out Arcanum nomenclature.

In this, I'm assuming that if you aggro the painting guard via dialogue, this will NOT aggro the Tarant guards as they do now. If that's not the case, I would want to make some small changes here.

Note that in my interpretation, the newspaper line has no trigger, it just results in combat, and you need more than just that regarding the painting to get to that point. The newspaper line is just a dumb option at that point if you don't know about Rorry and you don't just want to say "Sorry, I'm leaving.". Note that if you go with JUST Madame Tosseadau's hint, he will aggro on you (which is a perfectly fine way to get the key and painting, as long as it doesn't aggro the Tarant guards).

Drog, you will, of course, be much better at deciphering the original intent than I am, as you can see the unmodified file and know what the original triggers were, and just know Arcanum a crapload better than I do. Still, I think this is a reasonable interpretation of the designer's intent, hopefully you agree. If not, no worries.

Also, not including the dumb responses, pretty obvious which smart responses they go along with, same triggers.


State 1: Watchdog: "I believe you have the wrong house. Perhaps you better leave."

Responses:

"I was given a note with this address on it..." (trigger: Has looked at the note) GOTO State 2
"I'm here for the painting." (trigger: Researched Rorry OR Madame told you location) GOTO State 4
"So sorry, I won't bother you again." EXIT

State 2: Watchdog: "[The half-ogre looms over you, glaring.] Yeah? And what business have you got coming here with it?"

Responses:

"Uh...I'm not quite sure. Perhaps you could tell me?" GOTO State 3
"I'm here for the painting..." (trigger: Researched Rorry OR Madame told you location) GOTO State 4
"Relax, friend, Rorry Limes sent me." (trigger: Researched Rorry OR (read note AND read Rorry's passport)) GOTO State 5
"So sorry, I won't bother you again." EXIT

State 3: Watchdog: "Wrong answer. Now you die..." EXIT, Combat

State 4: Watchdog: "The half-ogre looks unsure. He stammers...] Whu...? I mean, I thought...who are you? How do you know about the painting?"

Responses:

"I read it in the paper. Just thought I'd stop in..." GOTO State 3
"Relax, friend, Rorry Limes sent me." (trigger: Researched Rorry OR (read note AND read Rorry's passport)) GOTO State 5
"So sorry, I won't bother you again." GOTO State 3

State 5: Watchdog: [He looks relieved.] Right. Good, then. Rorry sent you. Here...take this. [He hands you a key.] It's in the back, there...

Responses:

"Of course it is. Thank you very much..." GOTO State 6

State 6: Watchdog: "Send my greetings to Rorry..."



Qwinn

 

[Qwinn]

Please note that I've made some significant changes since the first posting. Now, reading the note and the passport are also enough to get the key via dialogue.

As to whether it would count as custom content, well, in its defense I would argue that A) it contains no new dialogue, every line exists in the original, B) I'm not suggesting any arbitrary stat or skill checks, just checks on what the player would know at that point, and C) it only gives you the ability to give responses that you should logically be able to given whatever knowledge you've acquired by that time, to deny the player the ability to respond with those lines is really an artificial handicap.

Qwinn

 

[garren]

Well if my vote counts for anything I'd say that implement the dialogue to the ogre somehow, it always felt odd to me also that he was so quiet about the whole business.

EDIT: At least adding the fix to the extra patch wouldn't be anything controversial, though I wouldn't mind if the fix was implemented in the original patch.

 

[Koshachiy Barin]

Wow! Qwinn's solution seems just perfect to me! I'm all for it.

Also:

I suppose it's plausible that once you deliver the note, Rorry Limes instructs the guard to not permit any strangers.

Not if he sees that the note is opened, attacks me outright and gets killed. The way it is now, there is no "diplomatic" solution for a diplomat (who lacks thievery/mind control skills) - he just can't get Rorry's passport without killing him, thus botching the quest.

Hmm, on the other hand, that way the player could run away from the battle with Rorry, then wait a couple of days, kill him and still get the painting...

Actually, why should Rorry forbid strangers from the warehouse after the note is delivered? The painting isn't shipped anywhere, it's still being stored in the warehouse, obviously waiting for some fence to come and buy it. The player coming in, telling that Rorry sent him and taking the painting away could very well pass for a fence...

 

[Earth Nuggets]

I watched Gar equip some Dread Armor and turn bright blue the other day, and it reminded me of that request you made to fix the orc's color palettes from like 60 pages back in this thread. After doing a little reading, I busted out Photoshop and did my best to modify the palettes by hand. It took a bit of time, but I guess the mild autism I'm struck with when dealing with anything Arcanum related slightly paid off. I'm disappointed with how the barbarian armors came out, but the plate ones are completely usable, no question.

Here's an example of the updated palettes for the plate armors:

First image is the default, for comparison. These were pretty easy. I based the first two modifications off of the colors used for the tunics on the human models, black and purple. The last was unchanged from Troika's palette, except for the fixed skin.

Download these palettes here.

Here's an example of the updated palettes for the barbarian armors:

As before, first image is the default. Since Troika didn't really indicate what would change between armors, I made an assumption and used the inventory art as inspiration. These were a lot harder, since avoiding changes to the left shoulder-pad while making the right-arm band look decent was pretty much impossible. A second attempt didn't really lead me anywhere, so I'm uploading my originals. I think the dark grey and bronze are pretty nice looking, but the red armor is a bit of a problem. I know it'd be glossing over a mistake, but I feel that the red on the shoulder-pad could pass off as blood or maybe hastily-applied paint. Yeah, sounds lame, but there it is. I guess it would fit the setting, since it's mostly the orcish thugs that assault you on your way to town that wear the red type, if I'm not mistaken.

Download these palettes here.

Welp, there you have it. I see no reason not to add the platemail palettes. Take a vote on the barbarian armor set, don't use it, or make a suggestion on how to improve the colors.

Here's my suggestion for that dialogue tree. No dialogue needs to be added. Doing it in IE convention cause that's what I'm used to, haven't worked out Arcanum nomenclature.

This is an excellent solution.

 

[1eyedking]

Why did you use american color palettes? Down here at the Codex we like european-style colours.

 

[Drog Black Tooth]

Qwinn's solution does make the game more coherent and I like it, but it will be implemented in the Extra Content module. There's no bug to fix, no omitted content to restore, the original intentions are crystal clear. It may be bad design, but that's how the game is made.

Earth Nuggets, new palettes for orcs aren't really needed, it's a small change but it would take plenty of space (I will have to add new palettes to all animations). And they won't look perfect anyway, since these sprites weren't designed for differently colored armor.

 

[Earth Nuggets]

Oh well, good learning experience anyway, I suppose.

 

[Qwinn]

Thanks for taking a look, and for the work to put it in the Extra Content pack, Drog.

Bug report: If you fight in the pits in order to gain access to Thorvald, when you speak to him for the first time he responds as if you had met previously (responds with lines like "Why have you come to me again, brother?" and "What is it you want this time?"), and you don't seem to be able to get the bits I see in his dialogue where he congratulates you on beating Borag. I reran through from my arrival at the island twice to see if I could duplicate it, and yes, it does seem to happen consistently.

If you talk your way in, Thorvald seems to behave correctly.

Also, kinda oddly, when I first click on him his reaction to me instantly drops by 10. I thought maybe that's a standard mechanic due to racial adjustments or whatever, but since we're both dwarves I'd think it would go up by 10, not down by 10. *shrug* Can't say that's a bug, but since I never otherwise noticed reactions dropping instantly like that, I thought it deserved a mention. NOTE: This only happens in conjunction with the bug, when you fought in the pit to see him and it treats it as if you're talking to him a second time. Maybe it's an intentional penalty for not getting the info you needed the first time you talked to him? *shrug*

Typo: 01871Magnus_with_Thorvald: "I should ring your neck" -> "I should wring your neck"

Qwinn

 

[Spillmill]

Hey Drog,

Just finished the Stringy Pete quest for the first time. He was ok with the fact that I rebuilt the altar already for step 2. But after completing his whole quest, the section "Accepted: Stringy Pete wants you to repair the desecrated altar...", is still blue in my journal.

Also, a minor point: when I returned the treasure to the Williamson family the quest did not mark off immediately but when I had completed all three steps and spoke to Stringy Pete it did.

Not sure about this but the chest at The Bangellian Deeps when you walk in and turn right looks like a whole shop. Is that normal?

Cheers

 

[Qwinn]

Typo: The Last Testament of Kraka-Tur begins "Here are the last my last words"

Qwinn

 

[Applegate's Breasts]

So should it read:

"Here are the last of my last words." or "Here are my last words" ?

Because the first is like poetic and deep and shit. :conundrum:

 

[gothemasticator]

Drog,

I just noticed for the first time that you fixed the painting in BR mayor's house. It used to say "Medium-sized Object" (or something close to that). Great!

There is a similar object-description issue in Dernholm. There is a milkcan outside the front door of an abandoned house just SE of the melee master. It describes as "metal object."

gothemasticator

 

[Koshachiy Barin]

Currently playing through the game... Here's some bugs that I've spotted so far (all of them in Tarant).

- When playing dice, your opponent explains the rules to you: "If you haven't won or lost on the first throw, then you remembers the number" - should be "you remember the number".

- Half orc city dweller at Grant's tavern has a lot of throwing daggers, but can't hit me with them at all. Also, combat doesn't start until he spends them all and attacks me with his bare fists or I attack him myself.

- Dark magick shop clerk: "Please look around let me know if you have any questions." - should be "Please look around. Let me know if you have any questions." or "Please look around and let me know if you have any questions."

- Librarian: "That is correct. Anyone who wishes to peruse our volumes of knowledge must become a member. The Library of Tarant contains a myriad of books which house many diverse subjects." - unnecessary spaces between sentences.

- Benjamin Gershwin asked me to get the skulls, and I told him that "I'll think about it". Then I spoke to him second time and accepted his quest - Gershwin was glad, but nothing changed in his dialogue - I can still "accept" his quest over and over again every time I speak with him, and it is still marked as "mentioned" in my logbook.

- After you ask Factory Foreman at 15 Ten Hands Alley about his position, you can thank him (and boost his reaction) infinitely. This line is just out of context there, IMO.

- After I spoke with Cedric Appleby and accepted to destroy the steam engine, Capt. of Bates' Guard reacts to me as if we've already spoken. The only line available is "I have decided to remove the saboteurs for you". After I choose it, the guard accuses me of being an associate of Appleby - and if I lied to Appleby about accepting his proposal, he doesn't - just directs me to the warehouse (and Appleby's quest gets botched).
Also, haven't been able to turn Appleby in - the option in conversation with the guard just doesn't appear.

Also, the following may not be worth fixing (or may not be bugs at all), but I'll mention it just in case:
- When equipped, Rusty Sword doesn't look rusty at all. The same could be true for other rusty items as well.

- Matthew Jameson (the guy who asks you to retrieve his wedding ring from the sewers) and a Paperboy at the Western Garillon Bridge don't have shadows at night time - probably because of nearby street lights. If you come close to them, there's a chance that your shadow will disappear too.

 

[emperorworm]

i don't know if this is a bug but the portal in liam's workshop can be destroyed using the disintegrate spell and in liam's journal he said that any magick wont work on that thing. can this be fixed?

 

[Mr Frost]

Semi-Unrelated Question

Does anyone make custom/new items/objects for this game and if so where can i find em?

Oh' and it is good to see that so many people are in love with the classics as i am, they just dont make em like they used to.

 

[Worm King]

I have completed the sewer map quest for the thieves underground with 2 different characters. After this quest I can't seem to ask for other jobs, there's no such option. Bug?

 

[Qwinn]

Worm King:

The next job that can be given by the guy who asks for the map is to do help Appleby screw over Bates, I think. If you've already done that or talked to Bates, then no job from him. But he's not the guy who gives the rest of the thieves' quests anyway (except maybe for one more, way later on). You get those as rumors from thieves around town. The (halfling?) woman in the train station is a good one.

Qwinn

 

[wrhunter]

After finished the sewer map quest, you can talk to every citizens, especialy at lower streets, some of them will turn out to be members of the underground.

One of them will always appear at night, outside the house of Mr Black. But I'm not quite sure when.

These are from gamebanshee:

Once you’re a high enough level (20 is enough), Mynor will give you a second quest to steal a solid gold idol from the barbarians of Kree. He’ll even mark Kree on your map. When you return the idol to him, you’ll receive 10,900 experience and 1000 gold.

If you can steal it without killing anybody, then you’ll earn a fate point.

I've tried once with Expert Prowling and failed, maybe Master rank will do.

 

[Regulator]

Ok first off, Drog, you are a hero in my book right now. But I have an unfortunate story for you. I installed both the unofficial mod, and the HiMaps, and afterwards, the game goes to one of the load screens. Either the newspaper man, or the train. Then blacks out and dumps to desktop. No error message or anything. And it happens in a matter of seconds. I tried to unistall then reinstall and it says I am missing both the Arcanum and Vormantown Modules. I check, and it appears I have Arcanum, but Vormantown is indeed missing. Any help you can offer would be greatly appreciated. Because I am SUPER eager to try your patch.

Also, the game is a default with the last official patch.