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Decline Thiaf Pre-Release Thread

Echo Mirage

Arcane
Joined
Aug 19, 2013
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Tirra Lirra by the River
That is one individual that has yet to learn that when you take 20 million dollars of someone else's money, its not about the game they, the developers want to make. Its about making the game that the consumer wants to play. But I can't take anyone seriously who thinks that a Tomb raider game that was worse then The angel of darkness in almost every respect was, and I quote "Great" .
 

Rahdulan

Omnibus
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Oct 26, 2012
Messages
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Meanwhile, at Siliconera
NEFJiU5.png

[src]

Someone should tell this guy developers and publishers are players' bitches, not the other way around. Want to impose your misguided ideas and SO EPIC games on the player base that has no interest in playing them after seeing what you've done to the games? In the ideal world, or if you're Capcom, you would enjoy a prolonged bankruptcy. Sadly, fate has a sense humor and has made most players incapable of critical thinking or actually giving a damn about the state of the industry as long as their short term desires are met.

Or I don't know, people have different opinions and shit taste. :M
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2010
Messages
3,213
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Vostroya
What I find depressing, that that wasn't a single comment made by a lone idiot, it's a fucking trend already. At Bioware forums (which always were cesspool, but are getteng progressively worse with each year), other forums, at many other gaming sites and blogs.

There were always fanboys, but when game industry and games' target audience were smaller, companies catered to most idiotic part of player base somewhat less. So such way of thinking, roughly summed as "My Beloved Developer Is Always Right, You Fucking Plebs", weren't as harmful then as it is now. But today, considering industry's obsession with massive sales, inflated budgets and average consumer's lower age - it become really troublesome. Of course, I'm not saying that such fanboys are main factor of the decline, but what the fuck. How tasteless and moronic can one be?
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
Well, lots of people that are followers of the big game studios did at some point or another play WoW, and in that community everyone was of the opinion that any balance change to their favored class was a result of the whining of some other class (in addition to the idea that their class was the most nerfed/worst class because they sucked).
 

zwanzig_zwoelf

Guest
Fucking hipster apologists who are kissing dev ass on every chance and ask to get hired. They think that game development is all about 'sitting near a fucking window and painting pixels when inspiration hits'. Ugh.

But tbh, studios need to grow some balls and start making something new instead of re-using someone's ideas. At the same time they need to understand that they are our bitches, and no fucking sales projections can determine wtf people want. If I fuck rubber dolls, that doesn't mean that they should be included in every fucking game.
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
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Messages
14,323
They can reuse ideas all they want, but they ought to be good ideas used in sensible combinations.
 

zwanzig_zwoelf

Guest

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,404
Meanwhile, at Siliconera
NEFJiU5.png

[src]
Those artistic integrity morons always make me depressed, watching depravity and abject servitude is always someting sad to see. The moron thinks that there is such thing called Eidos Montreal and it is a person, what exist is a series of different teams that are totaly different from each other and can even completely change based on whom is leading them and all those teams are lead by suits that have only one objective: Square Enix survival and the survival of their paychecks as consequence. Talking about artistic integrity and developers making games that they want to make is retarded. Even on kickstarter that isn't true.
 

Borelli

Arcane
Joined
Dec 5, 2012
Messages
1,305
But Thiaf's popamole features are not the result of a "developer's vision" but of them appealing to modern audience in advance. So this is not a artistic integrity <> do as the fans say clash but a listen to old school <> listen to new school one.
 

Icewater

Artisanal Shitposting™
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Freedomland
Project: Eternity Wasteland 2
Funny. That's exactly the same stuff Vault Dweller spews in defense of AoD. And then some of you fucking hypocrites piss themselves in glee.
The difference is that Age of Decadence is a genuine attempt to produce something good, in sharp contrast to the garbage that seems to be the rule nowadays.
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
1,060
Location
Poland
I actually agree that developers should not listen to what "fans" and "gamers" want... Developers should be fucking "fans" and "gamers" themselves, and should want to make a goddamn game and not cinematic piece of hollywood wannabee interactive movie.
 

hiver

Guest
Funny. That's exactly the same stuff Vault Dweller spews in defense of AoD. And then some of you fucking hypocrites piss themselves in glee.
The difference is that Age of Decadence is a genuine attempt to produce something good, in sharp contrast to the garbage that seems to be the rule nowadays.
How does that even compute?

AoD was and is being build with large input from fans. More then any other game i know about.

What are you all fucking retarded like angrykobold?


As for that comment and other retards agreeing with it - its just another case of extreme emotional engagement.
The moron who is striken by it just follows the program and seeks someone else to blame.
 

Western

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Australia
Codex 2012 Codex 2014 Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
Hiver's right, Vince and Co took plenty of feedback from their core/target audience. They just never shot for broad appeal or listened to people who were telling them to design a different game or make a Fallout clone.

This new Thief's problem was that they've simply made an unappealing game, they've realised they desperately need to shore up sales and cut their losses. They're now cutting features to try and get the game out, and trying to appeal to older Thief fans because those features traditionally appeal to console gamers.
 

set

Arcane
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
944
The truth is there is nothing wrong with QTEs and experience systems.

But it's a misconception to stop there. The truth is - game design is an art. There is no recipe of A + B that gaurantees C. If you take QTEs, you can make a great game. If you take expeirience systems, you can make a great game. But if you take QTEs and experinece systems and put them together in the same game? You can create an unfun mess.

Anything can be fun. Regenerating health is not a sufficient reason to hate modern FPSes. But it's regenerating health in conjunciton with other mechanics and design - like an emphasis on cover-based popamole, or an overly simplistic level design (corridors, instant-death zones for not following orders, etc) that when used in conjunction with regenerating health... Right, you get the idea.

The problem with the new Thief is it has no apparent design consensus. Garrett is a master thief, so why does he need upgrades? What do we find fun about upgrades? Who knows. They're just doing it because CoD and WoW have experience systems and are successful / popular. They're not doing it for any better reason than that. It's this shallow reasoning, and the lack of a true motive, that hurts the game.

Thief should be about being sneaky. It doesn't mean duck-waddle (Thief 1 can be played by running, jumping, sprinting, hopping, climbing... very little 'forced' creeping and crawling), it just means you aren't running forward down a burning hallway in bullet time with red jelly plastered all over you until you reach an exit and need to press a random button or you have to start over from a check point for failing to activate the QTE. Thief should be about exploration, discovering secrets, and acquiring wealth-items. Thief should be about avoiding combat rather than confronting it head on (though this doesn't mean there can't be sections where direct confrontation is a bad thing). Thief should be about using various tools (in the forms of arrow types and potions) to overcome certain obstacles. Thief should be about variable mission objectives (with three levels of difficulty, to satisfy all sorts of playertypes).

The Thief I've seen so far is none of these things.

Developers should pursue what they think is best. We aren't the developer, so it's technically 'none of our business'. Publishers have a right to demand things, because they control the purse strings.

But it is absolutely not sensible to do what most modern game companies do. Ignoring fan feedback and desires is sure to hurt a series' longterm profitability. Creating content that is barely indistinguishable from market leaders is a horrible horrible idea - Ubisoft is already shitting out three assassin's creeds every 4 quarters, EA is already shitting out a new Battlefield every 12 months, why are you copying these people, who are already oversaturing the market with their own product? Your inferior copyclone isn't going to do better, nor nearly as good, as its direct competitors.

Making a shit game hurts your reputation. It certainly doesn't gaurantee a profit (look at the mediocre titles Square's already shat out - Tomb Raider and Hitman did not make more money despite playing along with modern design conventions - they didn't even make a profit). It certainly means there won't be a sequel, not that developers are forward-thinking enough to care about the next game they have to make after the one they're on ships.

Publishers control the money during production, but that's our job once the game's out of production. Our opinions do matter.
 
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Tel Velothi

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May 12, 2011
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828
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beneath a lonely desert sun
Yeah, our opinions do matter. And it's a complete idiocy.
Listen, our opinions matter, so there will be sequel of CoD: Shitfuck, because it sold in millions - people love it! So we will give them what they want!
You are happy with that?

What I'm saying is: devolopers who are listening to people what they want are most likely to make a shit game.
Now, developers who are making stuff THEY want and the way THEY feel is right - now thats a spirit. If that game sells well, it's great, but "selling well" shouldn't be priority to developer, because people simply want shit. Selling well is a nice thing, but it can't be a priority. And it was cool when games were made by few people, but right now there are big money involved.

Games became pure business. It's like pop songs: they can't be too long, can't be too complex, can't have "d33p" lyrics, etc.
There is another thing. Back in the old times games have been made by few people - and they did it, because of passion, not "how it will sell". Right now there are thousands of people involved. For example creating one tree takes incredible long time, because it have to have unique leaves, complex 3d model and other things.
 

Zewp

Arcane
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Messages
3,604
Codex 2013
Over-reliance on fan feedback can be destructive, but fan feedback should not be cast aside entirely. Ninja Theory made a game that they wanted to play, ignoring the fans and even deriding them at times. Look where that got them.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
A game developer's job is to find an audience and make the games they want to play. The key word is "an". There's not one single audience, there are many audiences, that want many different sorts of things. "Making the game the fans want" is not analogous to selling to the largest audience possible.
 

set

Arcane
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
944
Yeah, our opinions do matter. And it's a complete idiocy.
Listen, our opinions matter, so there will be sequel of CoD: Shitfuck, because it sold in millions - people love it! So we will give them what they want!
You are happy with that?
The people who buy Cod: Shitfuck don't buy Stealth games. The fact developers/publishers misconstrue data numbers and facts to justify idiotic decision making processes is not our fault. There used to exist a market for these games. If it's gone and dried up, it's the big publisher's faults for not cultivating it when it was large.

For instance, cRPGs all dried up 2000. It's no wonder they're a niche title in 2013, nobody is making them. BioWare, the AAA 'leader' of RPGs, has shifted to developing popamole TPS with dialogue wheels instead of RPGs, so it's no wonder they've become this nebulous genre that doesn't turn a profit, which in turn, defends the arguments of large publishers, who only give money to projects which involve the words 'shooter' and 'multiplayer' in the first page of the design document.

We would expect this exact same phenomenon if Nintendo decided to not release a platformer for 10 years. They could release the greatest Mario game ever and it wouldn't sell, because games are about cultivating a market, acquainting an audience with your product, and making repeat consumers, etcetera
 

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