Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

[DraQ]

Genres are mere labels

True, but labels can be helpful when there are lots of items. And being a literary person I firmly believe that when the vocabulary is lost, all is lost.

As a person frequently dumbfounded by how much idiocy confusing the labels with the real stuff has generated, I have no choice but to disagree.

Symbolic thinking is certainly useful - for communication or when stringing together a thought process to big to fit into your operational memory normally. Still, not remembering that your labels are only a model, a tool that can be misused often produces results that are so sad it's fucking hilarious.

RPGs, for me, have exactly one potentially interesting associated feature - character build. Character build is subset of C&Cs when viewed from certain angle, comprised of choices you take, usually before even starting the game proper, that stick with you through the rest of your playthrough, affect your virtual avatar(s) and are typically codified by low level mechanics. It has potentially immense impact on the gameplay, by making you play a different game with each different character/party. It can also be further amplified by making it affect availability of standard C&C, which is why RPGs + C&C tend to make a good attempt at awesome. For this reason RPGs are specifically interesting, other than that I care not if agame is an RPG or not, only if it's good or not and whether it is relevant to my interests (sports, racing and manager type of games are not).

Azrael's Tear happens to possess many other traits, that while often associated with RPGs, especially good ones, are by no means exclusive to them - it has a lot of good, branching dialogues, arguably better designed than those in PS:T due to them defying typical "repeat while tree is not exhausted" approach, in-game branching and C&Cs, cool atmosphere and Shock-esque trappings, yet you dismiss it on the grounds of not being able to make a number of fairly specific choices before starting the game, ignoring everything else.

This way of thought is utterly alien to me.

That's the idea, to annoy unobservant players and reward the observant ones.

no u.

Ah, whatever. It's quite clear you're not interested in a discussion

Detecting massive irony spike!

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

This way of thought is utterly alien to me.

Sure, many of my friends call me narrow minded since I only play RPG and strategy games now. I've been playing games for over 30 years so I know what I like and am bored with trying the rest. Adventure games have become a no-go for me. Just like arcade ones before them.

 

[DraQ]

Adventure games have become a no-go for me.

Can you explain why? It's very possible that AT happens to avoid those problems.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Well, as you said in your post, lack of character build is one thing. Lack of what I call decent combat also. Those are the two reasons I play RPG and strategy (I only play strategy games where character build plays a part, like X-com, JA2 or even *shudder* Fallout Tactics, so squad based games mostly).
This alone is enough to stop me from trying AT but there are other reasons I came to stop enjoying those games that apparently don't apply to AT :
- Goofy or uninteresting settings
- Try every item on everything
- Extreme lack of freedom, acceptable on the field of battle but not while socializing (Wiz 8 allows you to fight or insult).

Best exemple of adventure game that made me ragequit the genre is "Discworld" that abuses the three to the point of becoming unplayable for me. Then again I also hated "Gabriel Knight" which is supposedly a good one.

I was never crazy with the genre to start with, but playing many of those games with friends who enjoyed them made me love it a bit first, and then realize it was definitely not my thing.

Now back to the swamp, I've got some some giant mosquitoes to fascinate with my lava lamp.

 

[DraQ]

Well, as you said in your post, lack of character build is one thing. Lack of what I call decent combat also. Those are the two reasons I play RPG and strategy (I only play strategy games where character build plays a part, like X-com, JA2 or even *shudder* Fallout Tactics, so squad based games mostly).

So, I take it you despise, for instance, PS:T?

- Goofy or uninteresting settings

Seems rather interesting so far, I don't know how it will turn out in the end, but it's freaking atypical, especially for a Grail story. Large volume of in game texts, including helmet sensors feedback and actual books, notes and parchments included.

- Try every item on everything

Averted hard. Most puzzles are extremely logical, based on info obtainable in game and often have an array of alternative solutions.

- Extreme lack of freedom, acceptable on the field of battle but not while socializing (Wiz 8 allows you to fight or insult).

Averted hard. Main choices come up during dialogues, dialogue trees themselves are full of possible traps and often can't be exhausted. Finally, you carry an AR (with possibility of finding another boomsticks) you can use in about any moment barring being IN actual dialogue. There is a lot of implied conflict, limited information and good amount of paranoia fuel. The game seems to focus on character interaction.

The game seems best described as System Shock meets PS:T - how's that a bad thing?

I was never crazy with the genre to start with, but playing many of those games with friends who enjoyed them made me love it a bit first, and then realize it was definitely not my thing.

I don't despise adventures, but I'm not really interested in them as they tend to be more or less linear experiences with more or less illogical puzzles you have to overcome dispersed along the rail.

AT however happens to be very different - about the only thing it shares with typical adventure is that it has puzzles and not enough emphasis on combat to be classed as anything else. You look at the gameworld from FPP, have HUD/interface reminescent of System Shock feeding you information, a gun with on hud targeting reticle, interact with characters a lot and can solve puzzles in many alternative ways instead of having to come up with the single Rube Goldberg-esque solution the author made up while trying to be devilishly clever. Most items you pick up are texts, most other will turn out useless because you will solve the puzzles where they would be potentially useful differently.

Now back to the swamp, I've got some some giant mosquitoes to fascinate with my lava lamp.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

So, I take it you despise, for instance, PS:T?

No because the setting was very interesting and character build is good (or at least present). But it's true that I didn't enjoy the combat.

As for the three "adventure games" things that turn me down, I guessed that AT doesn't suffer from those, that's why I made a point to seperate the grievances I had against the genre at large that didn't specifically concern it.

The game seems best described as System Shock meets PS:T - how's that a bad thing?

I didn't play SS so I couldn't say, but PST without party members and RPG character sheets doesn't seem like a good prospect for me. The "roll player" in me had a hard enough time with the bland combat but at least he could wank over numbers and paper dolls.

 

[DraQ]

The cast of about a dozen interactive characters, each with their own agenda, and most that can be reasonably suspected of trying to trick you or being batshit insane or both should manage to stand in for the absent interactive followers.

 

[Grunker]

That's the idea, to annoy unobservant players and reward the observant ones.

no u.

Ah, whatever. It's quite clear you're not interested in a discussion but would rather fling shit my way. Do your worst, I'll go play some more Wiz8 meanwhile.

Not flinging shit your way, just describing the type of puzzle. It's an annoyance and it annoyed you, your reaction is understandable. I went through Wiz8 and explored everywhere and picked everything up because I have been annoyed before with their previous incarnations, much worse even, so I changed my play to be more thorough and got a lot less hassle. If you don't like that type of thing, then that's fine and reasonable.

Sorry mate, that just sounded a lot more like a "haha, I'm elite an observant."

I've begun being "observant", that is, scouring the whole gameworld, and I gotta say, I find it hard to believe anyone can actually say that that's a good gameplay mechanic.

 

[Cenobyte]

I've begun being "observant", that is, scouring the whole gameworld, and I gotta say, I find it hard to believe anyone can actually say that that's a good gameplay mechanic.

Personally, I like it very much, because such an approach to puzzles and challenges doesn't assume the player to have a serious case of ADHD or mental retardation.

Instead of hinting everything or even giving the player the solution of the puzzles (like for example Dragon Age has done it in its Codex... which was especially hilarious considering that the game hadn't really that much or that hard puzzles to begin with), the game assumes that the interested player will look around, try out things and find solutions through his own thinking. That's a perfectly fine design philosophy in my opinion.

Another positive aspect is that such puzzles and exploration features also add to the variation of the gaming experience, since it's not only combat, combat, combat or talking, talking, talking all the time (the most extreme example of this monotonous design is perhaps Mass Effect 2). Personally, I think that any well-designed game really benefits from gameplay variations.

 

[Grunker]

I guess you have a point, but a lot of it seems so random for me. Disregarding the backtracking, I can understand a puzzle such as the vines: It is logic that the smaller vines are combined to a big one and used to build a bridge.

But a puzzle such as "use purple ball on green altar" is just random and there's no logic to it. This doesn't add to gameplay. Inclusions like this has the result of what Darth Roxor mentioned: "Use everything on everything." That's just tiresome.

 

[SCO]

That's just bad puzzle design. It happens too, generally by ignoring the "puzzle" part.

 

[DraQ]

Sorry mate, that just sounded a lot more like a "haha, I'm elite an observant."

So? Is there anything preventing you from being "elite and observant"?
I'm observant, fairly intelligent, willing to put effort in my games and, to top all that, I was able to find Caius Cosades in Morrowind on my first try. Yes, I'm THAT awesome.

And guess what? I'm not ashamed that I consider those who don't share all that traits inferior people. Lending any legitimacy to their butthurt only leads to lowering the bar.

I've begun being "observant", that is, scouring the whole gameworld, and I gotta say, I find it hard to believe anyone can actually say that that's a good gameplay mechanic.

What a nice strawman you've built there, shame I'll have to torch it.

First, "whole gameworld" in Wizardry 8 is pretty small compared to games like Morrowind. Scouring it all is not a problem nor an actual hassle.

Second, you don't have to scour "whole gameworld" - wilderness areas, for example, contain their share of hidden stuff, but I can't recall any of it being necessary for game progression. On the other hand, entering a clearly unique, labelled building you have to not only pass in front of, but also battle a swarm of fairies emerging from it, then searching the single room it contains doesn't really require inhuman feats of scoutsmanship - it should be a natural impulse of any adventuring party guided by any sensible RPG player.

Third, Wizardry 8 doesn't really emphasize exploration - all items and hotspots in game are in plain sight - compare that to Morrowind where you can literally walk right by epic artefact and not notice it if you're not extra careful.

Fourth, how exactly is rewarding curiosity and perceptiveness bad design?

But a puzzle such as "use purple ball on green altar" is just random and there's no logic to it. This doesn't add to gameplay. Inclusions like this has the result of what Darth Roxor mentioned: "Use everything on everything." That's just tiresome.

Again, the puzzle you mention doesn't exist. The one you gave as an example is perfectly logical and only requires very basic pattern matching ability once you find the object required for it's completion and you will be sent specifically after this object.

Give me a single example of a puzzle in Wizardry 8 that works like you described or GTFO.

The only illogical puzzles in the whole game are three rune puzzles requiring rather arbitrary objects to activate, except they are not just optional, but part of three elaborate easter eggs and easter eggs, by definition are meant to be obscure and not part of the game proper, so there is no point complaining about those.

 

[Grunker]

So? Is there anything preventing you from being "elite and observant"?
I'm observant, fairly intelligent, willing to put effort in my games and, to top all that, I was able to find Caius Cosades in Morrowind on my first try. Yes, I'm THAT awesome.

And guess what? I'm not ashamed that I consider those who don't share all that traits inferior people. Lending any legitimacy to their butthurt only leads to lowering the bar.

You're obviously right. It's my intelligence keeping me from enjoying this aspect of Wiz8. Is there a course I can take, or is my intelligence forever doomed? Will I have to drop out of uni?

What a nice strawman you've built there, shame I'll have to torch it.

First, "whole gameworld" in Wizardry 8 is pretty small compared to games like Morrowind. Scouring it all is not a problem nor an actual hassle.

Second, you don't have to scour "whole gameworld" - wilderness areas, for example, contain their share of hidden stuff, but I can't recall any of it being necessary for game progression. On the other hand, entering a clearly unique, labelled building you have to not only pass in front of, but also battle a swarm of fairies emerging from it, then searching the single room it contains doesn't really require inhuman feats of scoutsmanship - it should be a natural impulse of any adventuring party guided by any sensible RPG player.

Third, Wizardry 8 doesn't really emphasize exploration - all items and hotspots in game are in plain sight - compare that to Morrowind where you can literally walk right by epic artefact and not notice it if you're not extra careful.

Fourth, how exactly is rewarding curiosity and perceptiveness bad design?

1) What the fuck does that have to do with it? "Haha, it's worse in Morrowind" is not an argument.

2) Maybe that has something to do with the fact that I've been recommended to scour the gameworld three times in this thread, and that you actually have to. I've found a plethora of items by scouring everything. You might like that, I don't.

3) Again, "it's worse in Morrowind" is not an argument." I LOVE exploration, but the Wiz8 has a lot of tedium combined with it; lots of backtracking and poor design (blocking trynnies) accompanied with it. So far this only goes for Trynton however, and I have never claimed anything else.

4) LOL at you accusing me of a strawman and then go on to say: "You think curiosity is bad game design?!?!?!?" when I've never said such as thing.

Again, the puzzle you mention doesn't exist.

Yes, it does. The entrance to the anti-magic area is unlocked with exactly such a puzzle.

In short: FUCK you. I've shown interest in discussion, I've debated, and most of the people in this thread have actually been interested in talking to me. You're determined in proving me as an idiot child without the capabilities of understanding an old video game, and with that crusade, I wish you the best of luck.

Seriously. Stop being an idiot, and start talking instead. You might find that listening is a very productive method of conversation which will yield good results at times. That, or just keep ranting. It is the Codex after all, and I guess it holds its own value of entertainment.

 

[made]

It's a sphere-shaped key that fits a sphere-shaped keyhole in the same area. Doesn't get more logical than this.

Now there's a second sphere-shaped object you find there and another sphere-shaped lock on a second door which gave me more pause because I was sure it must fit, until I checked the journal and found out what really to do with it.

 

[DraQ]

1) What the fuck does that have to do with it? "Haha, it's worse in Morrowind" is not an argument.

Worse? It's waay better.

2) Maybe that has something to do with the fact that I've been recommended to scour the gameworld three times in this thread, and that you actually have to. I've found a plethora of items by scouring everything. You might like that, I don't.

You don't actually have to apart from exploring locations that are literally in your face (see the sanctuary with vines). Of course, if you do explore, you are rewarded by plethora of items, so it's pretty recommendable.

3) Again, "it's worse in Morrowind" is not an argument." I LOVE exploration

Wait, you "LOVE" exploration, but don't like scouring the area you explore? How does that even work?

but the Wiz8 has a lot of tedium combined with it; lots of backtracking and poor design (blocking trynnies) accompanied with it. So far this only goes for Trynton however, and I have never claimed anything else.

Where is tedium involved? The only part I get are blocking trynnies, but they are minor annoyance, at worst.

4) LOL at you accusing me of a strawman and then go on to say: "You think curiosity is bad game design?!?!?!?" when I've never said such as thing.

When you complained that the game rewards observant and curious players with loot and less backtracking?

Yes, it does. The entrance to the anti-magic area is unlocked with exactly such a puzzle.

No it doesn't. The entrance to anti-magic area is unlocked by putting blue, marble sphere into blue, marble spherical impression on the door - essentially this:

If such a puzzle surpasses your spatial and pattern matching skills to the point where you consider the solution completely arbitrary, illogical and not hinted at in any way, then yes, you will very likely drop out of uni.

Now there's a second sphere-shaped object you find there and another sphere-shaped lock on a second door which gave me more pause because I was sure it must fit, until I checked the journal and found out what really to do with it.

Bwuh? I don't recall that.

(Use

Spoiler

tags to avoid spoiling Grunker's fun, though.)

 

[Grunker]

Lolololol. I'm a retard. I meant the green altar thing, not the door to the anti-magic area.

When you complained that the game rewards observant and curious players with loot and less backtracking?

There's a damn big difference between "curious" and "obsessive". Curious is looking at something interesting and saying: "gee, I wonder what that does." It's got nothing to scouring and entire gameworld, which in essence is just walking around every pixel of the game screen.

I love exploring stuff, because I like to wander around the game world and discovering nice things. I do not enjoy when I have to obsessively search everything. I get cold shakes when I think about what this game is like without a ranger in your party.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

Why feed him? He's just going to continue being pointlessly belligerent at you for daring to like the same things as him and thus reduce his cred as a highbrow intellectual autist elitist.

 

[DraQ]

Lolololol. I'm a retard. I meant the green altar thing, not the door to the anti-magic area.

And I already explained that one earlier on. You will find an object that fits on the altar in rather obvious manner. You will be told explicitly to fetch that object. It will all become very logical once you are in possesion of an item that is the key to this puzzle. No purple sphere nor radiant pink cone involved.

There's a damn big difference between "curious" and "obsessive". Curious is looking at something interesting and saying: "gee, I wonder what that does."

It's also looking at something and saying: "gee, I wonder what's there."

I love exploring stuff, because I like to wander around the game world and discovering nice things. I do not enjoy when I have to obsessively search everything.

Except you don't. I've already explained that. The sanctuary was right in front of you and clearly a unique building out of which a swarm of fairies emerged moments before and tried to gangbang the party. Inside there is even a dinosaur head mounted on the wall right near the spot with the vines, probably intended to draw you towards them and save you a lot of hassle with backtracking.

Figuratively speaking I can accept you bumped into the cupboard and hurt your knee - we all commit errors sometimes, but could you please fucking stop accusing the cupboard of jumping you and inflicting injuries on your body when we didn't look?

I get cold shakes when I think about what this game is like without a ranger in your party.

About the same except you walk around in search mode almost all the time and get ambushed a lot as the party can't pay attention to both hidden items and approaching monsters simultaneously. Sometimes you miss (OMG) a piece or two of extra loot.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

I get the impression he wants people to like Wiz8, but they have to like it just like he does and complaints about a few puzzles and places are unaceptable. Fans are like that

 

[DraQ]

I get the impression he wants people to like Wiz8, but they have to like it just like he does and complaints about a few puzzles and places are unaceptable. Fans are like that

Complaints about logical puzzles being illogical, exploration involving exploration or an RPG game without clear railroading daring to involve backtracking are indeed hard to take seriously.

It's not that game lacks legitimate sources of annoyance - incessant random encounters, drawn out battles, occasional bad level geometry resulting in TPK if you touch a wrong wall, lulzy setting, useless communication, economy breaking alchemy and even trynnies clogging the walkways.

 

[Bladderfish]

Anyone got any good tactics for adamantium slimes? Playing through this game again after reading this thread, but my god these things are boring. Temporarily gave up because I couldn't face such a chore of a fight.

 

[DraQ]

Anyone got any good tactics for adamantium slimes? Playing through this game again after reading this thread, but my god these things are boring. Temporarily gave up because I couldn't face such a chore of a fight.

Ah, yes. Those things tend to cast high level ragequit on the player.

 

[dr. one]

Anyone got any good tactics for adamantium slimes? Playing through this game again after reading this thread, but my god these things are boring. Temporarily gave up because I couldn't face such a chore of a fight.

superman, armormelt, criticals .
i don´t think i´ve ever encountered more than 5 in one game though, they´re not worth to giive up on game for.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Anyone got any good tactics for adamantium slimes? Playing through this game again after reading this thread, but my god these things are boring. Temporarily gave up because I couldn't face such a chore of a fight.

Set everyone to attack -> set a macro to keep clicking 'end turn' -> come back after 10 minutes.

 

[DraQ]

Anyone got any good tactics for adamantium slimes? Playing through this game again after reading this thread, but my god these things are boring. Temporarily gave up because I couldn't face such a chore of a fight.

Set everyone to attack -> set a macro to keep clicking 'end turn'.

There is faux RT mode available in Wiz 8, so no need to.

Generally there is little advice that can be given save for buffs+armormelt. Maybe summon a lot of physically attacking elementals - those guys do rather obscene amounts of damage.