Wizardry The Wizardry Series Thread

[Grunker]

Grunker I hope you've learned the valuable lesson that you are an unworthy peon and you're not elite enough to like our games go be non-elite somewhere else stupid popamole retard with your "level head" and "civilised behaviour" shit

I guess the lesson learned is: "Do not attempt to play what the Codex recommends as golden treasure, they'll only hate you for it!"

Seriously though, there's some serious odd logic or ignorance of arguments going on here.

What is bad: Giving me the quest after walking past the vines. It's not handholding to give it to me before, I still have to find them on my own. It's the simple act of actually notifying me that I'm supposed to look for something, nothing else.

Have you ever played Wizardry 7 or any other real dungeon crawler for that matter? Against those, Wizardry 8 is almost harmless in the puzzle department

Nope, that's why I'm going through them now. Closest things I've played is Might & Magic VII, which I bloody fucking love, and some old-ass games such as Lands of Lore. In the first, there's lots of backtracking, but travel-spells make it hella-easy. In the second, I was too young to mind the design flaws. Everbody is complaining about the decline of the Codex and yadda yadda yadda, but all things considered, I've yet to play a game they recommended that I didn't like.

Except maybe Black Cat's JRPG-suggestion, but I'm not that far into that one yet.

Wizardry 8 is so far hella fun, but that's not going to stop me from criticizing stupid stuff. I've always hated trial-and-error puzzles without any logic to them (place purple ball on green alter for arbitrary reasons) and I'm not about to hate them any less because they're in a game with marvelous turnbased combat and exploration.

 

[DraQ]

What is bad: Giving me the quest after walking past the vines. It's not handholding to give it to me before, I still have to find them on my own. It's the simple act of actually notifying me that I'm supposed to look for something, nothing else.

1. You shouldn't be able to expect relevant stuff to pop up after you get the quest. Anything that allows you to use your metagaming sense and isn't there for specific purpose of averting learning by dying or otherwise punishing you for not knowing something you could not be expected to know is bad news.

2. Backtracking isn't bad, quit whining.

3. Wizardry 8 is the kind of game where you're supposed to look for everything all the time, no special notification required.

I've always hated trial-and-error puzzles without any logic to them (place purple ball on green alter for arbitrary reasons)

Tits specific examples or GTFO.

 

[Grunker]

1) You're missing the point. I get the quest AFTER I've passed the vines. Thus, it's a forced backtrack, unless, indeed, you meta and think "hmm, I should check everything 'cause there might be something quest-related I'll have to use later."

2) Yes, yes it is. Especially in Trynton, thus far.

3) I thought my Ranger's autosearch would cover that. Apparently not.

4) The green grass-altar into the non-magic room. The first area in there where you have to use objects to open some kind of portal.

EDIT: Oh, and I'm not whining. I asked: "Is it true that there's this kindda backtracking? If yes, it sucks" which prompted you to accuse me of wanting hand-holding, simplification and all in all spawned an uncalled for fury in your defensive position of what you apparently think of as a near-perfect game.

 

[Darth Roxor]

IIRC, you get the vines in some sort of an 'empty' building (that is, no loot/switches/whatever there, not counting enemies), right? Here's the deal: if you enter a room and it seems empty, it most likely isn't.

 

[Cenobyte]

What is bad: Giving me the quest after walking past the vines. It's not handholding to give it to me before, I still have to find them on my own. It's the simple act of actually notifying me that I'm supposed to look for something, nothing else.

I can only guess, but I think that the developers just thought that gamers would figure out those things by themselves (as you did, too).

But enough of the Grunker bashing, here's the deal about those vines: Go back to the temple building (the one with those cute fairies) and search a bit... and voila, you should get your vines. There is another element to this puzzle, but I won't spoil you this

 

[DraQ]

1) You're missing the point. I get the quest AFTER I've passed the vines. Thus, it's a forced backtrack, unless, indeed, you meta and think "hmm, I should check everything 'cause there might be something useful."

Fixed and norm in all traditional dungeon crawlers as well as about all adventures. With some modification relevant to most other RPGs as well.

2) Yes, yes it is. Especially in Trynton, thus far.

Go play a JPG or a side scroller.

3) I thought my Ranger's autosearch would cover that. Apparently not.

Levitating spinning objects may be bad as they're major source of visual inconsistency, but all the previous areas, including the monastery should have taught you the benefits and importance of clicking on/examining everything, so getting used to bad visual convention is not an excuse.

4) The green grass-altar into the non-magic room. The first area in there where you have to use objects to open some kind of portal.

You're specifically sent after the object fitting there and it strongly matches the altar visually, so no. Try again.

near-perfect game.

It is? Odd, I've never noticed.

 

[coldcrow]

Can't understand the hate for the trynton. Imho one of the best levels in crawlers.
Also from a internal game view is is perfect for spellcaster heavy parties, one frontman is enough to hold of a million bad dudes. Just a little bit of grinding (not excessive) in the ratkin tree made life so much easier for my 4 spellcaster party.

 

[DraQ]

Can't understand the hate for the trynton. Imho one of the best levels in crawlers.

I think it's because the narrow walkways. No avoidance possible and frequent clogging, especially with trynnie patrols wandering around.

Still, it's one of the locations that prompt me to replay the game whenever I think of them. Very cool and memorable location, I could've cared less about its flow problems.

Also, one of the precious few examples of successful use of green lighting in videogames.

Also from a internal game view is is perfect for spellcaster heavy parties, one frontman is enough to hold of a million bad dudes. Just a little bit of grinding (not excessive) in the ratkin tree made life so much easier for my 4 spellcaster party.

Not to mention spells or spell equivalents (gadgets, instruments, bombs, tix, dracon breath) become the only way for the party to not bore their asses off when trynnie patrol cuts you from the enemy.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

I know you want as few people as possible to play your favourite games so that you can be super-elite for liking them, but seriously, being this much of a dick just because you can get away with it is just embarassing

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I'm surprised that no one mentioned the combining of the vines. That's what stopped me on my first playthrough. I had the vines, I went to the bridge, clicked like hell and nothing happened. It took me a lot of time to figure out that you needed to combine them into one big ass vine.

On another note, I got rid of that annoying combat music by replacing the mp3 files with music of my own. Tough encounters, for instance, are now introduced by Orson Welles. Defender...

 

[Darth Roxor]

I'm surprised that no one mentioned the combining of the vines. That's what stopped me on my first playthrough. I had the vines, I went to the bridge, clicked like hell and nothing happened. It took me a lot of time to figure out that you needed to combine them into one big ass vine.

I combined them pretty much on the spot, since my first party had a Gadgeteer, and I quickly made a habit of using everything with everything

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

This is why I don't like adventure games. Gadgets parts being labeled as such, I didn't mind them too much but I didn't obsessionnaly try all combinations either. Now, if some person really thought of combining any item (like light crossbows) and trying again and again until he had the right engineering level, he was one gigantic faggot (sorry Crispy).

 

[Darth Roxor]

Well I didn't really use 'everything on everything' per se, but having played shitloads of adventure games, it seemed somewhat obvious to me that 'vine + vine = long vine' as it's a pretty 'standard' combination.

 

[Mackerel]

You're missing the point. I get the quest AFTER I've passed the vines. Thus, it's a forced backtrack, unless, indeed, you meta and think "hmm, I should check everything 'cause there might be something quest-related I'll have to use later."

That's the idea, to annoy unobservant players and reward the observant ones.

I'm surprised that no one mentioned the combining of the vines. That's what stopped me on my first playthrough. I had the vines, I went to the bridge, clicked like hell and nothing happened. It took me a lot of time to figure out that you needed to combine them into one big ass vine.

Perhaps no one wanted to spoil it for Grunker? Hmm? Anyway, merging items to solve puzzles is common in the later Wizardry games.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Perhaps no one wanted to spoil it for Grunker?

Yes, probably. It fits Codex' standard delicatesse like a chamois glove.

 

[DraQ]

Plus the shorter vines were labelled as 'short' or 'too short'. The puzzle was entirely logical, even if I wasted quite a bit of time trying to tie the bridge parts with giant spider silk.

I'm not a big fan of adventures, but as long as the puzzles remain logical they are 100% ok with me. As a matter of fact I've been playing one called Azrael's Tear lately and enjoying it immensely.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

As a matter of fact I've been playing one called Azrael's Tear lately and enjoying it immensely.

I remember that one, it was given for free along with Swiv 3D with a graphic card I bought a long time ago. In a galaxy... Well, I didn't play it but I clearly remember that it was labeled as RPG. :D

As for "logical" puzzles I don't mind them either. Wizardy 8 is good in this department since there aren't too many to begin with and they are "logical". The vines are the only one that really "puzzled" me IIRC. Plus, it has "mindread", best social spell in any game, so even some devious ones are ok really.

 

[DraQ]

As a matter of fact I've been playing one called Azrael's Tear lately and enjoying it immensely.

I remember that one, it was given for free along with Swiv 3D with a graphic card I bought a long time ago. In a galaxy... Well, I didn't play it but I clearly remember that it was labeled as RPG. :D

Well, it lacks stats, so no. OTOH you have multiple endings, alternative puzzle solution and lots of dialogue. And trace amount of FPS elements.

It also happens to be very atmospheric and have rather neat graphics thanks to simple, if inefficient trick of ditching any sort of lighting system and creating unique textures for nearly every single individual object with lightmaps baked right into them. Combined with cutting the gameworld into small chunks to minimize the engine strain it allowed AT to look much better than any contemporary FPS.

Plus, it has "mindread", best social spell in any game, so even some devious ones are ok really.

Too bad it's almost useless as mindreading is awesome.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Well, it lacks stats, so no.

Yeah, I know it's not one, that's why I din't play it. I just said it was labeled as such to show that the had already started a long time ago.

 

[DraQ]

Well, it lacks stats, so no.

Yeah, I know it's not one, that's why I din't play it. I just said it was labeled as such to show that the had already started a long time ago.

If you didn't play it solely on the grounds of it not being an RPG, then you're not in position to complain about the .

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

I din't play it because I don't care about adventure games, I care about RPG. The decline I'm talking about, is labeling non RPG games as RPG which infuriates me because I care about RPG. The reason I'm posting on RPG Codex and in a Wizardy 8 thread no less, is... because I care about RPG.
Clearer now, my friend ?

 

[DraQ]

I din't play it because I don't care about adventure games, I care about RPG. The decline I'm talking about, is labeling non RPG games as RPG because I care about RPG. The reason I'm posting on RPG Codex and in a Wizardy 8 thread, no less is... because I care about RPG.
Clearer now, my friend ?

You and I seem to talk about different kinds of decline then.

Genres are mere labels, what's really interesting is the elements games collected under one label or another bring to the table.

 

[Grunker]

That's the idea, to annoy unobservant players and reward the observant ones.

no u.

Ah, whatever. It's quite clear you're not interested in a discussion but would rather fling shit my way. Do your worst, I'll go play some more Wiz8 meanwhile.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

Genres are mere labels

True, but labels can be helpful when there are lots of items. And being a literary person I firmly believe that when the vocabulary is lost, all is lost. The real decline has to do with the games themselves though, I agree.

 

[Mackerel]

That's the idea, to annoy unobservant players and reward the observant ones.

no u.

Ah, whatever. It's quite clear you're not interested in a discussion but would rather fling shit my way. Do your worst, I'll go play some more Wiz8 meanwhile.

Not flinging shit your way, just describing the type of puzzle. It's an annoyance and it annoyed you, your reaction is understandable. I went through Wiz8 and explored everywhere and picked everything up because I have been annoyed before with their previous incarnations, much worse even, so I changed my play to be more thorough and got a lot less hassle. If you don't like that type of thing, then that's fine and reasonable.