Ultima The Ultima Underworld I & II Thread

[SharkClub]

I played 1 and 2 recently and the object list purging half my inventory bug is something I only encountered while playing UU2, despite them having upped the number of items allowed to coexist on a level in 2 from what it was in 1. In UU1 there's really no reason at all to hoard everything on one floor/area (other than just collecting autism, of which I am often guilty to some extent), there is almost nothing to spend gold on and the talismans you collect basically end up replacing half of the things you'd choose to hoard or buy from npcs. In UU2 you have the magic merchant who can recharge wands and identify shit in exchange for gold/jewels/treasure so it is way more worth it to lug around tons of crap there. It got to a point close to the end of the game where if I went up the ladder to castle British (where I would keep my loot all nicely packed away into boxes) I would be deleting half of the items on the level, thankfully though it's easily noticeable since half of your inventory (equipped items included) goes along with the stuff on the ground, so it's nothing loading a savegame from a minute ago can't fix. I ended up splitting my autistic loot hoard between the quick and easily accessible separate floors from castle British's main floor and that solved the problem.

 

[ShaggyMoose]

I think I must have developed autistic pack mule tendencies only after playing these games, because I never ran into the item/save corruption issue.

 

[Cael]

I am a pack rat when I play RPGs, especially for things like gems/valuables and magic stuff. I have never run into that bug either.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Anvil of Dawn…. Rock collecting never felt so good. Ultima I think you can collect bones and skulls though.

 

[UndeadHalfOrc]

I am also a pack rat....

In Might and Magic 6 & 7 and Betrayal at Krondor, I store all my loot in chests. In MM6 I usually pick a dungeon's chests because they don't respawn until 2 years game time has passed. The best one IMHO is the bandit dungeon in Free Haven area just south of the city. In Krondor, my favorite one is the ARROW chest just north of Krondor.

In Might & Magic 2, 3, 4, 5, and 8, I dump all my loot on pack mules I created, and/or hirelings. In MM2, I also dump my gold on them because Leprechauns exist.

In Ultima Underworld, Eye of the Beholder, and Dark Sun games, I just dump my stuff on the floor in a central hub in neatly arranged piles. Yes, it's perfectly safe to do this in UUW1 as long as you destroy useless items.

In Baldur's Gate, I pick a random peasant home with tons of available shelves & drawers. I usually need to take a note to remember where, tough.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

You packrats should play the Gothic-games more often.

Infinite inventory.
No restrictions.

It can lead to some hilarious circumstances, though. I ended Gothic 1 with ~87.000 pieces of Magic Ore in my possession, which is enough to buy a good chunk of Myrtana. Yet somehow I lost all of that at the start of the sequel, and then the King only gets one chest's worth of Magic Ore after the Barrier collapsed? I could have ended the war with just the Magic Ore I had stashed in my pockets.

But some fancy-schmansies wanted to tell a story, so all that had to go...

 

[chukimomosra]

Hi everyone. I am new here. I really enjoyed reading this thread. There are a lot of interesting concepts about the overall feel/gameplayer of the 2 games. I have been trying to figure out the RPG system used looking at various sources including some reverse engineering attempts, decompiling the executable, documentations etc. I re-created a number of calculations but the simple breakdown it seems the system under the hood appears to use d6 rolls. I know Ultima was based on D&D in the early days but over time it became it's own thing but I wonder what was the inspiration for the simplification of stats in the later games which Ultima Underworld games inherited.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Hello, and welcome.

I can only hazard a guess at your question, but I would say the inspiration for simplifying the stats would be to create a system that's accessible to a larger playerbase, mainly by being easier to understand.

I recall when I first started playing the Eye of the Beholder-games that I enjoyed how the computer took care of all the technical stuff, I could focus on playing the game. Later however, I got curious about how the system worked and learned about concepts such as Armor Class, THAC0 and attack rolls. English isn't my native language so it took me some time to figure things out - and that's before we get to what THAC0 is, and how it relates to the Armor Class-value. In defiance of common sense, you want to have your Armor Class as low as possible (preferably a negative number) while you want your base statistics to be as high as possible. Needless confusion, right there.

By comparison there is nothing about the system in the Ultima Underworld games (at least) that is needlessly confusing.

 

[chukimomosra]

Hello Unkillable Cat. Thank you very much for the welcome. I am still in probation period. I only have 1 post.

I agree with you. I do think is much more simple, overall. Sill, I wonder still how they came about to simplifying it. Early Ultimas are very similar to D&D but later Ultimas seem more similar to GURPS actually. I know the inspiration for Ultima Underworld specifically came from Wizardry and Dungeon Master but I think the attribute system is borrowed from Ultima 7 with some tweaks.

One interesting point is that in Charater Creation Screen you have 4 attributes: Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence and Vitality. Mana is just a skill so you cannot see how much you actually have until you start the game. Seems like an honest mistake. However, in game both are listed together. Is possible mana was added later in development or Vitality was initially meant to be a 4th attribute but later repurposed as hit points.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

While I agree that the attribute-system may be borrowed from Ultima 7, one has to keep in mind that the two games were developed simultaneously. It may have been a mutual design decision, or a case of one team 'stealing the test answers' from the other to get an attribute-system going. We may never know.

Regarding Vitality, you may be on to something there.

I looked in the official clue book, and they list the three attributes and how they relate to each of the classes, as well as their value. Ranger has Strength, Dexterity and Intelligence all at Medium, meaning they start at an average number, but then get an average modifier applied to them to get the final stat value. Shepherd meanwhile has them all on Low, but then gets massively bigger modifiers applied. No class has all three at High, but the other six classes have a mix of High, Medium and Low. This information is published in the clue book to help players get their preferred character 'build' going. For those who want a beefcake character who can still use some magic, for example, the Druid is the best choice.

As you can see, Vitality isn't mentioned once. It appears (I haven't checked) that both Hit Points and Mana are derived somehow from the three basic attributes, but then the Mana-skill can be used to raise Mana further, while Hit Points are increased by gaining levels.

I recognize that sometimes, during game development involving complex systems, that things don't always follow the same rules. In the more modern survival horror game The Long Dark (to name but an example) there are nine core skills which increase via their usage. Use the bow to hunt wildlife, and the 'Archery'-skill increases. Successfully boil water without hurting yourself, and the 'Cooking'-skill increases, etc. These skills follow a level system (1-5) where each level gained earns neat bonuses, and they can also be trained further by reading skill books that can be found. However, the game also has three secondary skills which don't follow those rules. While these secondary skills do increase with usage, they have no level system but have an 0-100 attribute system instead, with 100 being the maxed-out skill with the best benefits... but no bonuses are involved at any point, and no skill books are available.

I believe that something similar may be happening under the hood with the Underworld-games.

 

[chukimomosra]

Another clue is the design document for Ultima Underworld 3. It features 5 stats: Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Vitality, Luck. You start with 40 points that you can assign any way you want. Further down on page 67 in the Creature Breakdown section you see a list of creatures and their stats where they list HP, Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Vitality, Luck, P Skill. So Vitality is clearly separate from but perhaps related to Health.

For example this is the first entry in the table
Name Ant, Lava
HP 250
STR 25
DEX 10
Intelligence 22
Vitality 35
Luck 10
P Skill Unarmed

So I think is possible that Ultima Underworld 1 initially had Vitality as a kind of D&D Constitution/Endurance or GURPS Health before being repurposed to hit points. And is also possible mana was added much later towards the end which is why it doesn't show up at all in the initial creation screen. I need to watch some interviews with the former Blue Sky team/designers to see if there are any clues as to the order in which things were developed or any clues in regards to the initial stats before Warren Spector joined the team.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Hi everyone. I am new here.

Welcome to RPG Codex!

 

[Inec0rn]

Hey all, are any of the new engine projects actually finished allowing a complete playthrough of the original games without issue and some QOL improvements?

also still shattered at the failure of Underworld Ascendent for a such legendary game series.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I can only speak for myself, but No, on both counts.

They monumentally screwed up with Underworld: Ascendant, and currently no engine allows for a complete playthrough without issue.

But there are engines that allow the next-best-thing, so keep an eye out for those.

 

[I eat frozen vegetables]

Underworld Unity has been shelved in favor of using Godot. However, the dev hasn't uploaded a commit in four months. It's still in pre-alpha though.

 

[Spukrian]

As you can see, Vitality isn't mentioned once. It appears (I haven't checked) that both Hit Points and Mana are derived somehow from the three basic attributes, but then the Mana-skill can be used to raise Mana further, while Hit Points are increased by gaining levels.

So I think is possible that Ultima Underworld 1 initially had Vitality as a kind of D&D Constitution/Endurance or GURPS Health before being repurposed to hit points. And is also possible mana was added much later towards the end which is why it doesn't show up at all in the initial creation screen. I need to watch some interviews with the former Blue Sky team/designers to see if there are any clues as to the order in which things were developed or any clues in regards to the initial stats before Warren Spector joined the team.

Vitality in Underworld 1&2 is just ((Strength divided by 5, rounded down) + 30).

EDIT: Ooops, forgot to add "at character creation" but I believe most understood what I meant.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Underworld Unity has been shelved in favor of using Godot. However, the dev hasn't uploaded a commit in four months. It's still in pre-alpha though.

Meh, some important UW systems are designed around the control scheme. While having mouse-look is nice, it breaks the game IMO.

 

[Inec0rn]

err.. like what? i can't think of any instance in these games where the locked viewpoint is tied mechanically to anything.

 

[chukimomosra]

Welcome to RPG Codex!

Thank you!!

Vitality in Underworld 1&2 is just ((Strength divided by 5, rounded down) + 30).

EDIT: Ooops, forgot to add "at character creation" but I believe most understood what I meant.

Ohh!! Yes that makes more sense. I had it as round(STR * 0.24 + 29).

Also I wonder if you wanted Ultima Underworld 1,2 to have an addition attribute which one would it be? What is missing?

 

[Spukrian]

err.. like what? i can't think of any instance in these games where the locked viewpoint is tied mechanically to anything.

There are a few things that depend on the mouse cursor being free (e.g. combat). Though I personally don't believe mouselook would ruin the game, but it would make some things much easier.

Also I wonder if you wanted Ultima Underworld 1,2 to have an addition attribute which one would it be? What is missing?

Maybe a Wisdom stat that does for Mana what Vitality does for hitpoints?

 

[Inec0rn]

Depends how they implement it, if adding freelook i would tie the different swings to movement keys, left, forward, right.. im unsure if these attacks actually have any mechanics behind them. The only other thing i can think of is the original team hiding objects in area's where you would have to go out of your way to change the view angle being easier, although none of these items would heavily impact the game (maybe some gems and potions meh).

 

[chukimomosra]

There is an Ultima hacks program that adds mouselook as is quite good, actually. You can use E to activate things directly. You use ` to switch between mouselook on and off.
It is this one https://johnglassmyer.github.io/UltimaHacks/patcher-site/ (you select your local unpatched unmodified uw.exe the appropriate hack)
The documentation is found here https://johnglassmyer.github.io/UltimaHacks/#ultima-underworld-the-stygian-abyss
(It also can patch Ultima 7 though using Exult is way better.)

 

[Spukrian]

im unsure if these attacks actually have any mechanics behind them.

Different types of attacks does different amounts of damage, depending on the weapon: swords does more damage with side attacks ("slash"), maces and axes does more damage with overhead attack ("bash"), daggers does more with stabbing ("thrust").

EDIT: At least that's what the cluebook says, I'm inclined to believe it.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

err.. like what? i can't think of any instance in these games where the locked viewpoint is tied mechanically to anything.

The speed of movement of monsters considers practical limitations of the controls scheme. If you can move around monsters easily with mouse look, combat is trivial. Also, exploration becomes so easy. I found the inability to easily run away (as it would be with mouse look) added a lot of tension to exploration. With mouse look I can cross a dungeon level in like 2 minutes and just blow by everything.

At a minimum, IMO combat and pacing are ruined by mouse look unless monster and NPC movement is enhanced. (To say nothing of puzzles, time based events, etc.)

 

[Kweepa]

Hi, I'm creating voiceovers for the cutscenes and dreams in the first game, and realized I may have been pronouncing Tyball wrong all these years.
How would you pronounce it? TIE-BALL or TIB-ALL? The first is my preferred, the second is more like the Shakespearean name Tybalt. I don't want to be ridiculed as another STY-GEE-AN fool.