The PS5 and Xbox 2 thread - it's happening

[Makabb]

Ofc it does, the reason laptop ones don't is the heat. Do you expect the console to be closer to a desktop or a laptop?.

Haven't you seen the devkit? It's much bigger then a laptop, it's like a small desktop.

 

[Makabb]

So all this means that PS5 will be like a high end PC during time of release

Nope. You get what you pay for.

But we don't know the price yet.

 

[Makabb]

If anyone was ever thinking of getting the xbox

 

[DalekFlay]

Imagine being a fanboy for a specific console company on a largely PC enthusiast forum.

 

[Outlander]

Imagine being a console fanboy, period.

 

[Makabb]

Imagine being a fanboy for a specific console company on a largely PC enthusiast forum.

be my guest, get an xbawx

 

[Achilles]

So all this means that PS5 will be like a high end PC during time of release

Nope. You get what you pay for.

But we don't know the price yet.

Whatever the price is, the hardware you'll get will be a bit cheaper than similar PC hardware due to mass production and perhaps some subsidizing. For example, if it's $399 you might get $479 worth of PC hardware. Our disagreement lies in the fact that you think you'll pay $399 or $499 and get $800 worth of PC hardware or more.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

If the rumored specs are true I can't see how the consoles will cost less than 500$ for the base models. AMD is selling just the CPU for minimum 200$ if they target 20% profit margin (half of want they say is the goal with Zen).

Spoiler

https://adoredtv.com/zen2-chiplet-quality-examined-by-cost/

The GPU will probably be cheaper as the cost of the GDDR would not be included, but overall I bet AMD is charging the console makers minimum 350$ for the package. How much the rest of the parts amount to is what- 16 gb ram and 1TB ssd 40-50$ each. We know that Microsoft don't make any profit from 500$ XBOX One X, that have CPU costing them probably 20-30 bucks.

 

[Makabb]

So all this means that PS5 will be like a high end PC during time of release

Nope. You get what you pay for.

But we don't know the price yet.

Whatever the price is, the hardware you'll get will be a bit cheaper than similar PC hardware due to mass production and perhaps some subsidizing. For example, if it's $399 you might get $479 worth of PC hardware. Our disagreement lies in the fact that you think you'll pay $399 or $499 and get $800 worth of PC hardware or more.

Is Soulburner the only one in this thread that understand how consoles work? Additional performance comes from low level optimizations which is not available on PC, and when the hardware pretty match equals out in price range, the optimization on console puts it further apart from PC.

Creation of the new APU, CPU + GPU will cost Sony 200$ that equals out or beats current Ryzen 3600 and Radeon 5700, a 5700 alone costs 350$.
Historicaly that was not possible, because the hardware advancement were huge yearly, but we live in a time where CPU advancement came to a halt and GPU are much much lower than what they used to be.
It's the combination of all those factors that creates the 'next-gen' in such favourable light vs PC.
I don't realy care about consoles, I always owned a PC first, but i'm just stating the obvious facts, times are changing.


That's why a PS5 for 500$ will be like a PC with hardware for 800$ but with the optimizations that it provides, the effective power will be like a PC for 1500$, because in PC diminshing returns in current era in high end are awfull (and they will be even higher with every year), and for little gain in performance you have to pay A LOT.

 

[Makabb]

Also it seems that PS5 will have better ray tracing than current GPUs, AMD's implementation is different than Nvidia's and will be part of the architecture in terms of pipelines and not this chunk in the corner that Nvidia offers, and we know that Ray tracing brings nvidia GPUs to a halt, so if AMD will have a superior ray tracing on consoles, it will add to the performance.

 

[DalekFlay]

If the rumored specs are true I can't see how the consoles will cost less than 500$ for the base models. AMD is selling just the CPU for minimum 200$ if they target 20% profit margin (half of want they say is the goal with Zen).

While they are saying it will be am 8-core "Zen2" processor that doesn't mean it will flat-out be a Ryzen 3700 or whatever. It will be a cut down version of that, in several ways, to make it more affordable for a $400-500 box.

That's not really me mocking it though, because as said above due to several factors it will perform above its weight. It's just silly to expect a 3700 Ryzen and 5700 Radeon in a likely $399 box.

 

[Makabb]

If the rumored specs are true I can't see how the consoles will cost less than 500$ for the base models. AMD is selling just the CPU for minimum 200$ if they target 20% profit margin (half of want they say is the goal with Zen).

While they are saying it will be am 8-core "Zen2" processor that doesn't mean it will flat-out be a Ryzen 3700 or whatever. It will be a cut down version of that, in several ways, to make it more affordable for a $400-500 box.

That's not really me mocking it though, because as said above due to several factors it will perform above its weight. It's just silly to expect a 3700 Ryzen and 5700 Radeon in a likely $399 box.

It's all 'ifs' and 'whats' at this point, we will know soon enough.

 

[Achilles]

Is Soulburner the only one in this thread that understand how consoles work? Additional performance comes from low level optimizations which is not available on PC, and when the hardware pretty match equals out in price range, the optimization on console puts it further apart from PC.

Creation of the new APU, CPU + GPU will cost Sony 200$ that equals out or beats current Ryzen 3600 and Radeon 5700, a 5700 alone costs 350$.
Historicaly that was not possible, because the hardware advancement were huge yearly, but we live in a time where CPU advancement came to a halt and GPU are much much lower than what they used to be.
It's the combination of all those factors that creates the 'next-gen' in such favourable light vs PC.
I don't realy care about consoles, I always owned a PC first, but i'm just stating the obvious facts, times are changing.


That's why a PS5 for 500$ will be like a PC with hardware for 800$ but with the optimizations that it provides, the effective power will be like a PC for 1500$, because in PC diminshing returns in current era in high end are awfull (and they will be even higher with every year), and for little gain in performance you have to pay A LOT.

I'll try to explain things as simply as I can. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're not trolling.

During the 80s and 90s PC gaming and console gaming were largely separate markets. There was some crossover in the form of ports to and from platforms but in general PCs and consoles had vastly different architectures and games libraries. .This meant that porting a game from a console platform to PC and vice versa was a significant undertaking. If you watch a few episodes of Digital Foundry's "DF Retro" series you'll see for yourself the lengths that studios had to go to make a PC game run on consoles. Some games were completely redesigned from the ground up to be able to run at a barely acceptable framerate on console. 'Console optimizations' didn't help them there, did they? It's all on video if you care enough to learn more about this.

From the end of the 90s up until the end of the 00s and the rise of Steam, publishers only cared about consoles and the extent of their PC support was a token barebones PC port that usually ran badly. It was this time that essentially gave birth to the 'console optimizations' myth, mostly due to terrible PC ports and partly because of DirectX's needlessly heavy toll on the CPU up until DirectX 10. As soon as PC and console architectures converged and PC became a lot more popular (which made developers and publishers pay much more attention to PC versions of their games) those incredible results of console optimizations evaporated.

Multiplatform development is now the rule and developers don't usually have the time or resources to spend months tweaking their code for a single platform. This means that any effect from console optimizations will be limited to the somewhat lower overhead from running leaner OSes, workarounds and shortcuts and reduced settings. We have a whole generation of comparison videos at our disposal and in the vast majority of cases console optimizations are nothing more than reduced settings and tricks like checkerboarding to reduce the load on the hardware. The rest are shoddy ports like Arkham Knight. Again, this isn't debatable. There is a mountain of video evidence.

Also it seems that PS5 will have better ray tracing than current GPUs, AMD's implementation is different than Nvidia's and will be part of the architecture in terms of pipelines and not this chunk in the corner that Nvidia offers, and we know that Ray tracing brings nvidia GPUs to a halt, so if AMD will have a superior ray tracing on consoles, it will add to the performance.

You have to understand the concept of silicon budget. It means that you only have a certain amount of space on the die of your APU and that everything you add automatically means that you have to take something else out. Smaller process nodes allow you to fit more stuff in the same space but only up to a point. It is physically impossible, it literally goes against the laws of physics, to expect that an APU that has to include a CPU, motherboard, memory, GPU, various controllers and custom hardware and has to fit into a console-sized box can have stronger raytracing hardware than a dedicated GPU that is by itself as big as the whole APU.

Did you watch the Digital Foundry video linked a couples of pages ago? In it Digital Foundry's editors quoted a person from EA saying that raytracing hardware in the new consoles will be used for things like ambient occlusion and shadows. The editors then explained that this probably means that the hardware is not strong enough to be used for things like Metro's global illumination or Control's reflections. The evidence is right in front of your eyes, you just have to be willing to acknowledge it.

 

[Cyberarmy]

I regret buying PS4, that'll be the last console I bought probably.
Should've wasted that money on booze instead...

 

[BlackAdderBG]

If the rumored specs are true I can't see how the consoles will cost less than 500$ for the base models. AMD is selling just the CPU for minimum 200$ if they target 20% profit margin (half of want they say is the goal with Zen).

While they are saying it will be am 8-core "Zen2" processor that doesn't mean it will flat-out be a Ryzen 3700 or whatever. It will be a cut down version of that, in several ways, to make it more affordable for a $400-500 box.

There is nothing to cut down, it's just one 8 core chiplet and the price for making it can't be that much lower.

 

[Makabb]

It was this time that essentially gave birth to the 'console optimizations' myth

Multiplatform development is now the rule

lol, read what Soulburner wrote

'Consoles always offered APIs that are "close to the metal". You have direct memory and hardware access, you can control how everything is done from start to finish. That's why console ports always have higher hardware requirements on PC than the hardware the consoles have'

Yes multiplatform development is now the rule, and developers in these times develop first for the weakest console and they go from there with ports.

 

[Makabb]

It is physically impossible

But Sony confirmed already that PS5 is having hardware ray tracing, so it is possible.

 

[Makabb]

I regret buying PS4, that'll be the last console I bought probably.
Should've wasted that money on booze instead...

ps4 was underwhelming right from the start, it was more like ps 3.5.

PS5 should be more like jump from ps2 to ps3.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

Today 90% of the "console optimizations" is just lower settings. XBOX is using win 10 ffs, whatever low level API optimization devs are doing it's not console specific.

 

[Makabb]

Today 90% of the "console optimizations" is just lower settings. XBOX is using win 10 ffs, whatever low level API optimization devs are doing it's not console specific.

AKSHUALLY

- Xbox OS is the operating system for the Xbox One, It is a Windows based operating system using Hyper-V and contains separate operating systems for games and applications that can run on the console.
- PlayStation 4 is Orbis OS, which is a fork of FreeBSD version 9.0 which was released on 12 January 2012. The PlayStation 4 features two graphics APIs, a low level API named GNM and a high level API named GNMX. Sony's own PlayStation Shader Language (PSSL) was introduced on the PlayStation 4

They still use low level APIs and thanks to reducing the overhead, the performance is much better (but more work needs to be put into making the game work in the first place).

 

[Morgoth]

Modern Console API's aren't as "close to the metal" as they used to be in the PSX/PS2/PS3 era. It would be simply too complex and time consuming to code for a modern µarch (like GCN or RDNA) as low as earlier console hardware. D3D12 or Vulkan is about as low as you can feasibly get these days, console equivalents included.

 

[soulburner]

Imagine running a modern game on a PC with an Atom processor. Impossible, right? And yet the games on consoles do run fine (ok, 30 fps with drops is far from perfect). So an Atom level CPU on PC never had 8 cores but it doesn't change the fact that the Jaguar processors are very weak when compared to a middle end desktop PC.

Most console ports for the PC require a much, much better CPU than the consoles use. Some games even need at least 6 threads to perform without frame drops, and such processors are only beginning to the be norm in mid-end PCs.

The APIs used on consoles aren't entirely low level - they're not like assembly. They do allow programmers to delve deeper into the hardware and memory operations than coders are used to on PC.

Dx12 and Vulkan should give a huge bump to game performance but for some reason game programmers suddenly forget how to use them on PC, even with all their similarities. Dx12 on the xbox doesn't differ that much from dx12 on PC, but most PC games with that renderer rarely run better than with a dx11 renderer, if they have both available. I think only id Software properly utilizes Vulkan, making Doom 2016 run at fluid 60 fps on my Thinkpad x230 (dual core!) and an externally connected Radeon rx570. Switching to OpenGL pretty much halves the performance. Borderlands 3 runs worse in dx12 mode and it's recommended to use dx11 - I do not expect the programmers to suddenly make the dx12 path any faster in a future patch.

So. Atom-like CPUs in current generation consoles allow games to run at about 30 fps, while an i7 3770 might struggle with the same game ported on PC, even if you'd have an RTX2080 ti. What do you expect an even downclocked eight core (possibly 16 thread) Ryzen to be capable of in ps5 and Scarlett? Unless programmers suddenly switch to a completely different mindset on PC and start utilizing dx12/vulkan, we will once again find ourselves in a place where a console port will require a monster PC for a few CPU & GPU generations.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

I think people can't grasp the point that there will be nothing special in the hardware inside the new consoles. It's not like they will use different instruction sets, even the APIs are the same. Vulkan and DX12 are the future on desktop, it's just that nvidia don't want to move away from DX11 for now.

 

[soulburner]

I think people can't grasp the point that there will be nothing special in the hardware inside the new consoles. It's not like they will use different instruction sets, even the APIs are the same. Vulkan and DX12 are the future on desktop, it's just that nvidia don't want to move away from DX11 for now.

Just like current gen consoles are nothing special, they are just a low end PC. Well, not entirely - just the memory being unified (both cpu and gpu use the same memory and can share data - if an operation is better suited for the cpu to handle, it can work on it and then the gpu can do something else with it - on PC you need to copy the data back and forth between RAM and VRAM) is a big factor. The new consoles will have fast gddr6 for all needs.

 

[BlackAdderBG]

I agree, RAM is one part where Sony and Microsoft will save some cash.