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The New DOOM Thread (2016)

Durandal

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Interesting design talk which goes into more detail into the rationale behind some of the gameplay decisions and how they came to be. Gets into the more technical stuff as well.

Experimentation with "shoulder tackling into a weakened enemy for an instagib" which they abstained from because they thought it wouldn't make movement smooth enough and confuse players because of sudden FoV shifts (even though Glory Kills end up doing the same things in practice).
Things like why arenas were designed the way they are.
Wave ends properly once the heavy enemies are killed. If the heavy is killed, additional minions will stop spawning (save for a reinforcement wave once the heavy is on low health), so players are more inclined to target heavier opponents. Remaining enemies will zerg rush the player once all heavies are down.
There should have been more mobile archer type enemies like the Imp, most fodder enemies are too slow.
Stuff like how the AI works, and why they abstained from having too many enemies at once (because multiple enemies attacking the player at their own rhythm looked silly and was overwhelming), so there's only a limited amount of enemy attacks which can happen in a given space as enemies have to request an attack token from a limited token pool.
 

Bigg Boss

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I have a question for them. Why design arenas at all? The original had a couple. The new one was 70% arenas. It sucked. 7/10 Too many arenas.

They should go back and use a modified Gzdoom engine honestly. Fuck these graphics whores and their 10 monsters on the screen at a time.
 

Unkillable Cat

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I have a question for them. Why design arenas at all? The original had a couple. The new one was 70% arenas. It sucked. 7/10 Too many arenas.

They should go back and use a modified Gzdoom engine honestly. Fuck these graphics whores and their 10 monsters on the screen at a time.

I'm playing "OG" Doom these days and the number of arenas varies depending on which episode you play, but the closer you get to Hell the more arenas you have to contend with. Still not that many of them though.
 

Bigg Boss

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I'm playing "OG" Doom these days and the number of arenas varies depending on which episode you play, but the closer you get to Hell the more arenas you have to contend with. Still not that many of them though.

The arenas were heavily disguised though. They weren't giant squares or octagons normally. They didn't drop force fields to block you from leaving every time. The levels flowed better mostly because they were self contained, but also because they didn't suck.
 

Durandal

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I have a question for them. Why design arenas at all? The original had a couple. The new one was 70% arenas. It sucked. 7/10 Too many arenas.

They should go back and use a modified Gzdoom engine honestly. Fuck these graphics whores and their 10 monsters on the screen at a time.
As enemy AI and mobility improves, level design has to adapt to reflect these changes in enemy capability and give the enemies the opportunity to shine. One important thing to keep in mind is that traditional FPS level design hinges on the fact that enemies are incredibly immobile compared to the player. Levels here are always designed to put the player into a disadvantageous position. If the enemies could abandon their positions to immediately claw your face within the span of two seconds, then there would be no need for complicated enemy placement or level geometry because of how the enemy AI functions (consider how in Dishonored if you trigger the alarm all guards in the vicinity abandon their posts to all rush you, and once you kill all of them a good half of the level is now completely devoid of enemies).

If the enemies are designed around being highly agile and mobile, placing them into small labyrinthine areas or monster closets gives them no room to move and show off their capabilities. So, a need arises to design levels which both the enemy and player can make effective use of, resulting in less levels biased against the player in terms of level geometry, and more circular arenas will arise as a result, something executed very well in F.E.A.R. More open, clearly observable battle-grounds also work better with projectile-based enemies, giving you less opportunity to kite or back up to avoid an onslaught of projectiles, whereas having plenty of opportunity to break line of sight (and thus, smaller more compact levels) is a necessity for hitscan-based enemies. In nuDoom's case, the level geometry's role is to give both the enemy and the player enough avenue to move about, which isn't possible when the level design is asymmetric as it would be in traditional level design.

Also consider that exploration and combat in nuDoom are two separated modes of gameplay, rather than one cohesive whole. Glory Kills and Chainsaw ammo piñatas made short-term resource management and exploring for supplies largely useless, because those systems will already take care of your needs for you as long as you execute them every now and then. The only items of any worth in nuDoom's item economy are then chainsaw fuel, armor, mega items, power-ups, and upgrade points, items which you can't readily sprinkle around without heavily devaluing them the same way you can ammo and medkit pick-ups. It's also why nuDoom has these crates which refill all your ammo in the exploration segments, and why upgrade points were instated to give some purpose to exploration (we gotta have exploration because this is doom lol) since regular supplies won't do any more. Actual ammo pick-ups are mostly present in the arenas, where you're more likely to need them the most on top of having enough reason to keep moving about (it's not like you're going to be shooting much outside arenas).

With an arena-based structure for the combat, it begs the question whether there needs to be any exploration in the game at all, and whether the whole tacked on exploratory segments should be dropped in favor of just teleporting you to the next arena Nex Machina-style once you're done. This is where I'd wish nuDoom to have made up its mind from the start whether it is trying to be its own thing or trying to be Doom in places that don't really fit. An unholy separation of combat and exploration instead of the tight fusion of both the original Doom had just doesn't work.

There's nothing to suggest arena level design can't be done right or that it doesn't have its own strengths, we just haven't seen a shining example of "THIS is how you do arena level design right" yet, because it sure as hell isn't nuDoom (for reasons tl;dr). It doesn't help either that the FPS genre is incredibly stagnant, so the only lens through which people can judge the quality of FPS levels are through the standards of the shooters already considered good (old-school), especially when this new game is called Doom to begin with. So anything that tries to do something different can't help but be the victim of misplaced expectations and standards, rather than be judged by how well it works within its own context.
 

CreamyBlood

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Well, for all of the wonderful explanations and how it should be judged from within it's own context, I got bored after a few short hours, so it didn't work for me.
 

Bigg Boss

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I agree it can be done right, but I do not agree that modern AI makes cramped level design impossible. Cramped corridors is where part of the atmosphere came from in the original series.

At least if I understood you correctly you said that. :)

The reason Doom 4 is designed as it is is because it was designed for controllers. Yes, enemy count is low due to the graphics but the average player could not deal with 20 or 30 monsters anyway. Once again you mentioned why that is the case with the slower based console shooters taking over, so my comment is a bit pointless.

:lol:
 
Last edited:

KateMicucci

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Interesting design talk which goes into more detail into the rationale behind some of the gameplay decisions and how they came to be. Gets into the more technical stuff as well.

Experimentation with "shoulder tackling into a weakened enemy for an instagib" which they abstained from because they thought it wouldn't make movement smooth enough and confuse players because of sudden FoV shifts (even though Glory Kills end up doing the same things in practice).
Things like why arenas were designed the way they are.
Wave ends properly once the heavy enemies are killed. If the heavy is killed, additional minions will stop spawning (save for a reinforcement wave once the heavy is on low health), so players are more inclined to target heavier opponents. Remaining enemies will zerg rush the player once all heavies are down.
There should have been more mobile archer type enemies like the Imp, most fodder enemies are too slow.
Stuff like how the AI works, and why they abstained from having too many enemies at once (because multiple enemies attacking the player at their own rhythm looked silly and was overwhelming), so there's only a limited amount of enemy attacks which can happen in a given space as enemies have to request an attack token from a limited token pool.

Amazing how much thought went into creating what seems on the surface like a simple shooter.
 

Durandal

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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
Well, for all of the wonderful explanations and how it should be judged from within it's own context, I got bored after a few short hours, so it didn't work for me.
I did explicitly say nuDoom wasn't really a good example of arena level design

I agree it can be done right, but I do not agree that modern AI makes cramped level design impossible. Cramped corridors is where part of the atmosphere came from in the original series.

At least if I understood you correctly you said that. :)

The reason Doom 4 is designed as it is is because it was designed for controllers. Yes, enemy count is low due to the graphics but the average player could not deal with 20 or 30 monsters anyway. Once again you mentioned why that is the case with the slower based console shooters taking over, so my comment is a bit pointless.


good AI doesn't make cramped level design impossible (see Descent, though that's a special case), but the player and the enemy should be able to exercise enough mobility in a suitable space for the AI to showcase its strengths if there's to be any point to enemies being mobile
there's little point to increasing enemy mobility in spaces which don't allow for much ability in the first place





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Bigg Boss

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Mobility comes in many forms though. That is why you have mobs that fly, phase, teleport, etc..

Mobs that take tons of damage in the front, but are weak in back. Weak to certain weapons. Not sure what the focus on mobility is either?

NuDoom's issue is momentum, level design, and art style.
 

Martyr

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guys, I don't have the patience to read through 167 pages of discussion.

my 3 favorite shooters are: Doom 2, Wolfenstein 3D, Catacomb 3D
I also played most FPS of the 90s and the 2000s but those 3 are imo the best. no cutscenes, no unskippable story elements; just running through mazes and killing everything that moves.

so now, my question: will I like the new Doom? I know next to nothing about this game and I don't read steam reviews, so I'm asking for your opinions instead.
 

soulburner

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Sep 21, 2013
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Doom 2016 is, contrary to marketing and what most reviewers say, not an oldschool shooter and doesn't have too much in common with the original Doom, except for the overal setting and types of monsters. It's an arena shooter, so it mostly consists of maps that are made in a Serious Sam or Painkiller kind of way - you will very often get locked in a big room and the doors will open when you kill all the teleporting monsters. It's fast and bloody and quite fun, but quickly becomes repetetive. There's barely any monsters already roaming the levels, you won't get lost searching for a keycard, etc. Graphically it's very, very nice, the maps look good, even if they are rather simple. The weapons work as expected (but the viewmodels are freaking HUGE), the enemies die in a good looking way. There are upgrades you can add to weapons or armor and a few weird bonus levels in which you have to, for example, kill 60 imps within 60 seconds.

The sound is horrible. Each and every sound is as loud as possible, so if you are waiting to hear a grenade explode, you can miss it if there's anything casting a sound nearby, even if it's a broken light with sparks coming out of it. Monster sounds are impossible to distinguish between. The music gets tiresome quickly and is also a victim of loudness war - I know it's supposed to be industrial metal, so being noisy is kind of an integral part of it, but it's simply fatiguing to the ear.

It doesn't really have any cutscenes, but the gameplay will occasionally pause in a Half-Life-like way, where the game doesn't take control over anything but you will have to listen to a character say their thing. Not too long, though, the developers' priority was to make the storyline a secondary thing. The game also starts pretty quickly without any long intro, your character gets up and you start shooting. Most story elements in the form of holograms can be skipped just by walking past them.

It's a solid shooter by modern standards and can be very fun sometimes, but don't expect it be like the original Doom. I'm a fan of the old shooters too and I found Doom 2016 to be boring and too "modern".

It's also very good performance wise, my PC (i5 2500K @ 4.3 GHz with a non-overcloked Radeon R9 290) handles the game in 1080p ultra settings with a solid 60fps throughout when using the Vulkan API.
 

Bigg Boss

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guys, I don't have the patience to read through 167 pages of discussion.

my 3 favorite shooters are: Doom 2, Wolfenstein 3D, Catacomb 3D
I also played most FPS of the 90s and the 2000s but those 3 are imo the best. no cutscenes, no unskippable story elements; just running through mazes and killing everything that moves.

so now, my question: will I like the new Doom? I know next to nothing about this game and I don't read steam reviews, so I'm asking for your opinions instead.

No.
 

Martyr

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so now, my question: will I like the new Doom?

No.
:negative:

It's a solid shooter by modern standards and can be very fun sometimes, but don't expect it be like the original Doom.
what you're describing there doesn't sound that bad. I guess I'll just give it a try, since it's cheaper than usual bc of summer sale. I should be able to find out if this game is to my liking during those 2 hours, in which you're able to refund a game.
 

DalekFlay

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what you're describing there doesn't sound that bad. I guess I'll just give it a try, since it's cheaper than usual bc of summer sale. I should be able to find out if this game is to my liking during those 2 hours, in which you're able to refund a game.

If you like the idea of an arena shooter with good, fun combat then you should like Doom. When there is story, which is relatively rare, it's pretty well done. The Doom marine not giving a rat's ass about anything except killing is pretty funny sometimes.

If you want new releases that are just like the classic shooters of old then you want Ion Maiden, Dusk or the new campaign in Duke Nukem 3D World Tour. I honestly can't think of one fucking modern/"AAA" game that has that kind of gameplay.
 

Martyr

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If you like the idea of an arena shooter with good, fun combat then you should like Doom.
Painkiller was fun, Serious Sam 1 was pretty mediocre. I'll see if Doom is good in about 3 days and 5 hours, when my download is finished :obviously:

not giving a rat's ass about anything except killing
that's literally me when playing a shooter. story in a shooter is unnecessary and annoying. as I've said before, all I wanna do is walk through mazes and kill enemies. I even found the changes of the build engine annoying (jumping, swimming, jet-packing).
I just want that pure early-90s shooter-gameplay :outrage:

If you want new releases that are just like the classic shooters of old then you want Ion Maiden, Dusk or the new campaign in Duke Nukem 3D World Tour. I honestly can't think of one fucking modern/"AAA" game that has that kind of gameplay.
Ion Maiden was highly enjoyable, I replayed every mode on every difficulty, although I don't like the build engine that much - this game is that good!
Dusk is on my wishlist but it's not on sale right now :negative:
Duke Nukem 3D World Tour? is that another remake???? I already bought DN3D 3 times (CD, 3D realms website, steam), I won't buy it a 4th time ....
 

DalekFlay

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Duke Nukem 3D World Tour? is that another remake???? I already bought DN3D 3 times (CD, 3D realms website, steam), I won't buy it a 4th time ....

It's the newest release. Has eDuke style functionality built in, a new lighting and shadow engine, some extras like commentary and shit and most importantly a 5th campaign with 8 levels I think. It's only $5 in the current sale, but different people obviously have different ideas about tossing money at things.
 

schru

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Duke Nukem 3D World Tour? is that another remake???? I already bought DN3D 3 times (CD, 3D realms website, steam), I won't buy it a 4th time ....
It contains a new episode with eight maps designed by two of the level designers for the original game, Allen Blum and Richard Gray. There's also new music by one of the original composers, Lee Jackson, who also remastered the music from the base game on SC-88 Pro (doesn't sound as well as on SC-55). Then there are new lines by Duke's voice actor.
 

newtmonkey

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Duke Nukem 3D World Tour? is that another remake???? I already bought DN3D 3 times (CD, 3D realms website, steam), I won't buy it a 4th time ....

This one suffers from some major issues imo. The music plays back in mono for some reason (the actual files are in stereo), and there is input lag even if you try to force vsync off in nvidia control panel, etc.
 

JDR13

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The sound is horrible. Each and every sound is as loud as possible, so if you are waiting to hear a grenade explode, you can miss it if there's anything casting a sound nearby, even if it's a broken light with sparks coming out of it. Monster sounds are impossible to distinguish between. The music gets tiresome quickly and is also a victim of loudness war - I know it's supposed to be industrial metal, so being noisy is kind of an integral part of it, but it's simply fatiguing to the ear.

I have to disagree with this part. I like that the sound effects are loud. There are too many first-person shooters where the guns just give off pathetic "pew-pew" sounding shots. Also, you can control the music volume, so just turn it down if you don't like it.
 

JDR13

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Painkiller was fun, Serious Sam 1 was pretty mediocre.

For me, it was the opposite. I loved the first 2 Serious Sam games. They were some of the best pure shooters I've ever played. On the other hand, I found Painkiller too repetitive due to the lack of variety in the enemies.
 

Durandal

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I have to disagree with this part. I like that the sound effects are loud. There are too many first-person shooters where the guns just give off pathetic "pew-pew" sounding shots. Also, you can control the music volume, so just turn it down if you don't like it.
try pinpointing the location of enemies around you by sound

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