From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[eric__s]

Literally the only people who dislike this game are people posturing for internet cred. When games like Call of Duty get phenomenal reviews, it's because they had a $100 million advertisement campaign. When games like Dark Souls get good reviews, it's because they really do so many things right. I don't play action games and Dark Souls is still the best game I've played in a few years. It's the only game I've ever replayed immediately after beating.

People are sort of misinterpreting what the game is about and what makes it good. It's difficult but not in the way other games are difficult. It requires perception and patience; you can't run into a room and hack away every enemy. The difficulty is in learning how to respond to each enemy and situation, the trial and error process of progress. The game is about exploration and the game's difficulty is what makes it so intense - do you press on in an area where you know you'll find treasure or do you go back to the campfire to replenish your health? The difficulty makes exploration more meaningful because the game doesn't give you anything. Achieving a goal is satisfying in the same way that it is in Gothic, knowing that you did it completely by yourself without having anything given to you. The same skillset you need for combat - patience and perception - are also required for exploration. Dark Souls is a game where you're constantly at odds with your environment, whether it's through traps or invisible walls or narrow ledges or ambush locations, and you have to proceed cautiously and really learn the areas in order to exploit them.

The game's areas are great and varied too. Someone a few posts above was talking about how the game copy pastes areas and I have no idea what he was talking about. There are so many different places that focus on different kinds of challenges and the way they all link together is really clever. Dark Souls has the best exploration in any game I've ever played and it's really amazing how you never know what you're going to run into next. Don't watch too many of those videos because they spoil a lot.

Dark Souls is very good and addresses so many of the issues you all whine about constantly. Just chill out and try it and maybe try dropping your unfounded attitude and bias.

 

[Jasede]

Literally the only people who dislike this game are people posturing for internet cred. When games like Call of Duty get phenomenal reviews, it's because they had a $100 million advertisement campaign. When games like Dark Souls get good reviews, it's because they really do so many things right. I don't play action games and Dark Souls is still the best game I've played in a few years. It's the only game I've ever replayed immediately after beating.

People are sort of misinterpreting what the game is about and what makes it good. It's difficult but not in the way other games are difficult. It requires perception and patience; you can't run into a room and hack away every enemy. The difficulty is in learning how to respond to each enemy and situation, the trial and error process of progress. The game is about exploration and the game's difficulty is what makes it so intense - do you press on in an area where you know you'll find treasure or do you go back to the campfire to replenish your health? The difficulty makes exploration more meaningful because the game doesn't give you anything. Achieving a goal is satisfying in the same way that it is in Gothic, knowing that you did it completely by yourself without having anything given to you. The same skillset you need for combat - patience and perception - are also required for exploration. Dark Souls is a game where you're constantly at odds with your environment, whether it's through traps or invisible walls or narrow ledges or ambush locations, and you have to proceed cautiously and really learn the areas in order to exploit them.

The game's areas are great and varied too. Someone a few posts above was talking about how the game copy pastes areas and I have no idea what he was talking about. There are so many different places that focus on different kinds of challenges and the way they all link together is really clever. Dark Souls has the best exploration in any game I've ever played and it's really amazing how you never know what you're going to run into next. Don't watch too many of those videos because they spoil a lot.

Dark Souls is very good and addresses so many of the issues you all whine about constantly. Just chill out and try it and maybe try dropping your unfounded attitude and bias.

LOL consoletard stop making excuses for this 1 button popamole action game with regenerating health and cover lololol

 

[Morgoth]

I want this game to come out on May 15th to show dem Diablo tards what a real ARPG looks like.

 

[Jasede]

I've ordered the game some hours ago (was a cheapo 12€ action) because I've read good things about it on the 'dex and I could use another brainless action RPG. That game better be good or some heads will roll. :p

I think you're going to be incredibly disappointed.

 

[Stabwound]

I for one am very interested in being able to finally play this game.

Judging any game on random youtube videos is fucking stupid, come on.

 

[Surf Solar]

I've ordered the game some hours ago (was a cheapo 12€ action) because I've read good things about it on the 'dex and I could use another brainless action RPG. That game better be good or some heads will roll. :p

I think you're going to be incredibly disappointed.

With "brainless" I meant I don't want any game that's focused on story building, more a some dungeon crawler-like action game with a nice combat system and shit I can put xp and points in.

 

[Castanova]

Anyone who thinks Dark Souls is bad hasn't played it. End of line.

 

[Phelot]

Anyone who thinks Dark Souls is bad hasn't played it. End of line.

That pretty much seems to be the case. The worst I've heard from people that actually played it is that it's "ok." Would be interesting to hear from someone that has extensively played it and disliked it.

 

[Morgoth]

The game forces you to pay attention, that makes this whole affair a bit more "cerebral", thus the addictive factor. Unlike most games out there today which only require 5% of your cognitive capacity.

 

[spekkio]

In before it turns out it's not about PC version but about new DLC.



But Skyway's post were 10/10 as always.

 

[Phelot]

Anyone who thinks Dark Souls is bad hasn't played it. End of line.

That pretty much seems to be the case. The worst I've heard from people that actually played it is that it's "ok." Would be interesting to hear from someone that has extensively played it and disliked it.

I don't know where you faggots get off criticizing Actiblizzard or Bioware games, then.
Oh wait you read some lulzy LP's, that makes you experts.

Don't get upset, honey, I won't allow it! I tend to avoid talks about Bioware games because I don't play their games anymore, thus have no interest, though I can't help but laugh sometimes at some of the jokes. I tried ME and DA:O and I simply don't like their games anymore, so I don't feel the need to shit on people's opinions that have actually played it. I'm interested in this game, thus why I'm posting here and I'm interested in the opinions of those that have actually played the game.

 

[Phelot]

Anyone who thinks Dark Souls is bad hasn't played it. End of line.

That pretty much seems to be the case. The worst I've heard from people that actually played it is that it's "ok." Would be interesting to hear from someone that has extensively played it and disliked it.

I don't know where you faggots get off criticizing Actiblizzard or Bioware games, then.
Oh wait you read some lulzy LP's, that makes you experts.

Don't get upset, honey, I won't allow it! I tend to avoid talks about Bioware games because I don't play their games anymore, thus have no interest, though I can't help but laugh sometimes at some of the jokes. I tried ME and DA:O and I simply don't like their games anymore, so I don't feel the need to shit on people's opinions that have actually played it. I'm interested in this game, thus why I'm posting here and I'm interested in the opinions of those that have actually played the game.

Where do you think you are?

Touche.

Anyway my position is that everything I've seen of this game points to a clumsy, repetitive hack and slasher that for some reason attracts vociferous support from both mainstream publications and codecks japfags - in particular revolving around its alleged "hardcore" elements, which supporters appear especially interested in using as an exercise in self-love. I certainly don't deny that it's a hard game, which means absolutely nothing in itself. I could get an equally frustrating experience from any other tripul-eh consolefest casualfest if I were inclined to set the difficulty to max and play ironman. There's no way to be sure without buying and playing it myself, which neither codeckzers nor user reviews have made convincing arguments for beyond "LOL TOO HARDCORE 4 U".

Hey, I agree that the rhetoric gets sickening after awhile, but it gets sickening from both sides. It's tiring hearing such skywayisms as "HARDCORE GAMES MUST HAVE MORE THAN 2 BUTTONZ" and in depth youtube video reviewers. What I'd love to hear is some genuine criticisms from someone that actually played the game, because right now all I'm hearing are good reviews from people that have played it (yes, some of it sounds fanboyish, but much of it sounds legit) and weirdly hateful reviews from people that haven't. I agree that you can often times safely judge a game from videos and screenshots and determine whether it's for you, but we've got people in this thread giving indepth arguments against the game when they haven't even played it! Often times debating the gameplay mechanics with people that HAVE played the game. That's ridiculous. If you don't like it, troll it or whatever, but for fucks sake, let's not get indepth here, eh?

Personally, I was interested in this game because I really liked Blade of Darkness, but there have been very few games like it. Apparently this game compares so I'm anxiously awaiting news of a PC port so I can give it a whirl.

 

[Phelot]

Yes, we shall see indeed. We shall both play it and whoever was wrong, will have to commit suicide to restore their honor.


BTW, what the hell ever happened to the guys that made Blade of Darkness? Weren't they Mexican or some shit? Also, I love that they apparently stole all the music for the game

 

[Phelot]

Huh. Can't find any info on it now, but I recall reading something about the music never being credited and not clearly stating it was legally bought, but yeah I've heard it on the History Channel a bunch of times. Who knows. I guess they changed their name and mostly make console games.

EDIT: Also, BoD is one of those games that's a bitch to get working on newer machines.

 

[Grimlorn]

Literally the only people who dislike this game are people posturing for internet cred. When games like Call of Duty get phenomenal reviews, it's because they had a $100 million advertisement campaign. When games like Dark Souls get good reviews, it's because they really do so many things right. I don't play action games and Dark Souls is still the best game I've played in a few years. It's the only game I've ever replayed immediately after beating.

Same for me. I haven't played a lot of ARPGs but DS and DkS do it right imo. If there are going to be any good real time combat RPGs or dungeon crawlers they are going to have to create similar combat to DS and DkS. They set up a good foundation for real time combat with stats.

I remember a couple guys telling me Witcher 2 was awesome and the combat was like DS. Although they copied a few features like the lock on, the combat plays almost nothing like it and sucks in comparison. I was so disappointed by it that I didn't play past the prologue. Maybe I'll play through it someday, but that really ruined the interest in it for me because I was so excited about it.

 

[Surf Solar]

I've just read the other (IGN thinks blablabla) thread in its entirety, do you bros still have some framerate drops in certain areas now tha the game is patched proper? Also, this input delay for drinking potions etc - is that fixed? After reading all that I have to say I am pumped to die a lot in this game. :D

 

[praetor]

I really liked BoD too. The best melee combat EVAH - no exaggeration (unless you play amazon/dorf, but who the fuck does that) unless you're some DBtSfag Nothing I've seen of Demon Thingies/Dark Souls is reminding me of Severance's combat, which was weighty, yes, but not clumsy. We shall see

like i've said, i was (and still am) a huge fan of BoD, but DkS conveys a sense of weight much much better than BoD (mainly because BoD animations are a bit too clumsy and sometime spastic). DBtS had a fantastic idea, but horrible execution. btw, i've already elaborated on some crucial differences between the 2 combat systems (still, out of every game that was released since BoD, DkS is the closest i've found) in this thread and probably others (but Mr Murrow would probably make a much better job. hopefully he'll touch on the subject in his review )

btw, the only thing they lifted from zoroastrianism is some names, because the whole setting and bestiary is run of the mill generic fantasy. btw, iirc, a sizeable chunk of the team went on to form the studio that developed that latest Castlevania game

anyway, for both you and phelot, some criticisms off the top of my head from someone who played the game (most were mentioned pretty much everywhere, from threads about the game on this very forum, to various reviews around the web):

-performance issues (given the graphical quality of the game, it should've been significantly smoother)
-mostly boring and very OP spell system (here i'm thinking mainly of INT-based offensive spells and a PvE situation. in PvP, highly damaging spells are mostly worthless and very hard to pull off)
-shitty "starting gifts" (does anybody pick up anything other than the master key?)
-classes could've been better balanced (mainly because the "resistance" stat is 100% worthless so if you want even a moderately optimized build you'll never pick up Sorc, Thief, Hunter, Deprived or Knight)
-relatively unbalanced equipment (while it isn't as prominent in the weapons department, when it comes to rings and armour, there's literally 3-4 rings that are "a must" and a handful of armour pieces that are well above everything else. probably also worth noting is that there are a couple of pieces of equipment that are extremely OP for PvE and make it almost trivial because they are relatively easy to find/upgrade/craft and have ridiculously low requirements)
-static world (all enemy placements are fixed. there's no "patrol routes" or anything similar, so basically once you learn the layout of the levels and the enemy moves the PvE becomes a cakewalk. at the very least they could've added randomized spawn points for NG+ and beyond)
-crappy NPCs (they're basically all either static merchants and/or infodumps, with a handful of them providing a "simulation" of online aspects for the offline player)
-buggy and/or worthless covenants (great ideas, pretty terrible execution. there's literally 3 covenants that are worth joining and staying (Dragon, Darkwraith, Darkmoon) just because of the PvP, the rest are either entirely worthless (Princess Guard, Way of White), and others are sometimes worth it for the rewards for joining and ranking up (Chaos, Sunbros) and others still had fantastic ideas but are way to buggy and inconsistent for what they're worth (Gravelord) or have become gankfests (Forest Hunters))
-no locational damage (no biggie, but it would've added some depth.. i miss the dismemberment of BoD )
-the ease of backstabbing (a huge problem in PvE that's magnified in PvP. most enemies are way too slow to turn, and the backstab hitbox is too big)
-probably more that i'm forgetting

as you can see most, if not all, of these issues could be solved by some mods (if whoever ports it does a decent job for mod support and multiplayer integration). and, imho, they're mostly minor and the average person won't even notice most of them (except the more obvious ones like huge framerate drops in certain areas) and they're only a minor hindrance

I've just read the other (IGN thinks blablabla) thread in its entirety, do you bros still have some framerate drops in certain areas now tha the game is patched proper? Also, this input delay for drinking potions etc - is that fixed? After reading all that I have to say I am pumped to die a lot in this game. :D

yup. framerate is still horrible in certain areas (parts of Firelink, lower Blighttown, undrained New Londo), and the input delay is still present but very rare (for me, at least)

 

[Condiments]

Hey, I agree that the rhetoric gets sickening after awhile, but it gets sickening from both sides. It's tiring hearing such skywayisms as "HARDCORE GAMES MUST HAVE MORE THAN 2 BUTTONZ" and in depth youtube video reviewers. What I'd love to hear is some genuine criticisms from someone that actually played the game, because right now all I'm hearing are good reviews from people that have played it (yes, some of it sounds fanboyish, but much of it sounds legit) and weirdly hateful reviews from people that haven't.

Dark souls is one of my favorite action/adventure/rpg/whatever game in years, but its hardly perfect. I could give some genuine criticisms from when I played the game:

1) It can be cheap. While the combat mechanics are great what really shines about the game is the hand designed encounters. These designers are quite imaginative in their cruelty, but most of it is fair. Sometimes they take it a little to far, specifically in some of the later areas of the game that seem haphazardly designed. It doesn't detract too much from the game as a whole, but it can be off-putting.
2) Weapon upgrade system is unbalanced. I don't know if they have changed this in subsequent patches, but certain upgrade paths are way too powerful in comparison to others like the lightning upgrade.
3) Online system is unwieldy and unreliable. I get that this primarily a single player game, and I love how they integrated the online interaction in the game's lore, but it can get fucking annoying. Its less of a compelling feature due to how random the peer to peer system can be compared to the dedicated servers of Demon's souls. I've heard they improved everything with the patches, but I was getting quite a few failed invites and invades.
4) PvP is just short of being amazing. Playing against other players is a lot of fun in certain soul level ranges(I played mostly in the 70 range), but the shitty servers makes it less consistent than it should be. Getting lag backstabbed for a huge portion of your health is a significant problem along with various cheese spells that can make PvP a frustrating mess. Again, I haven't played since the patches, and I've heard things have changed for the better.
5) Atmosphere is good, but not as consistent or menacing as the original. The guy who was saying that there are a lot of "copy paste areas" is a fucking retard. If anything, the areas you go through vary too MUCH. You can go from a mysterious forest, to a barren castle, to a crazy fortress of traps and death all in a span of a few minutes. The game is more open than the original, but the tone is less consistent.

Its a far more ambitious but less polished than its predecessor, but I think its better overall.

 

[Phelot]

Thank you, that was very informative. I'm not really into multiplayer for something like this, so I'm not too worried about that. At this point my only fear about the game is that the port will be trash, unoptimized and such. Hopefully not, but you never know with these things.

 

[oldmanpaco]

Has anyone confirmed there will be a port? Or is this just an assumption we are going on.

 

[Deitti]

-shitty "starting gifts" (does anybody pick up anything other than the master key?)

Well, picking the black firebombs can be worth it if you want the weapon from asylum demon when you start a new game but other than that rest are useless.
Although even the master key isn't necessary, especially in the newer versions where you can buy it after ringing the bells.

 

[praetor]

2) Weapon upgrade system is unbalanced. I don't know if they have changed this in subsequent patches, but certain upgrade paths are way too powerful in comparison to others like the lightning upgrade.

nah. lightning deals split damage and as such is always inferior to pure physical (unless the enemy is particularly susceptible to lightning). as a rule of thumb, non-split damage>split damage. elemental weapons are good only for vit-gauge builds or as backup weapons (for example you make a str build and have a chaos/lightning rapier as a backup backstabbing weapon) or for specific PvE encounter where you know the enemy is susceptible to a particular type of damage (like the slimes in the depths being made of paper :p)

3) Online system is unwieldy and unreliable. I get that this primarily a single player game, and I love how they integrated the online interaction in the game's lore, but it can get fucking annoying. Its less of a compelling feature due to how random the peer to peer system can be compared to the dedicated servers of Demon's souls. I've heard they improved everything with the patches, but I was getting quite a few failed invites and invades.

yeah, it was significantly improved in patches but failed invasions/summonings still happen (i hope they put at least an option for dedicated servers in the pc port. p2p is just crap)

4) PvP is just short of being amazing. Playing against other players is a lot of fun in certain soul level ranges(I played mostly in the 70 range), but the shitty servers makes it less consistent than it should be. Getting lag backstabbed for a huge portion of your health is a significant problem along with various cheese spells that can make PvP a frustrating mess. Again, I haven't played since the patches, and I've heard things have changed for the better.

no more cheesespells (RoF was nerfed, TWoP even worse) except for WoG and gcombust spamming (but it's easy to punish once you learn to do it). backstabbing in PvP is basically it's own "game" (watch PhantomEGWF's videos for loads of useful info for countering BS fishers)

5) Atmosphere is good, but not as consistent or menacing as the original. The guy who was saying that there are a lot of "copy paste areas" is a fucking retard. If anything, the areas you go through vary too MUCH. You can go from a mysterious forest, to a barren castle, to a crazy fortress of traps and death all in a span of a few minutes. The game is more open than the original, but the tone is less consistent.

well, it's less consistent because you don't travel through a disconnected hub (the nexus) to go from one "themed area" to the next. if you took DeS' areas and connected them the disparity in tone would've been just as jarring if not more so

-shitty "starting gifts" (does anybody pick up anything other than the master key?)

Well, picking the black firebombs can be worth it if you want the weapon from asylum demon when you start a new game but other than that rest are useless.
Although even the master key isn't necessary, especially in the newer versions where you can buy it after ringing the bells.

BF are worthless. there are much better STR weapons (mostly because the requirements are way too high and the large and great club deal a similar amount of damage for much less stat req. and i really don't think there'd be many who'd like to have a weapon with 46str as a requirement at the start of the game) and you can trade a sack to snuggly for the hammer (or just go to ng+ for it. makes much more sense considering the stats). master key is a must if you want to keep some of the better PvP areas open without going through some potentially very dangerous places at low lvls. it's really the only gift that makes any kind of sense

 

[Condiments]

2) Weapon upgrade system is unbalanced. I don't know if they have changed this in subsequent patches, but certain upgrade paths are way too powerful in comparison to others like the lightning upgrade.

nah. lightning deals split damage and as such is always inferior to pure physical (unless the enemy is particularly susceptible to lightning). as a rule of thumb, non-split damage>split damage. elemental weapons are good only for vit-gauge builds or as backup weapons (for example you make a str build and have a chaos/lightning rapier as a backup backstabbing weapon) or for specific PvE encounter where you know the enemy is susceptible to a particular type of damage (like the slimes in the depths being made of paper :p)

Oh interesting. I remember back in October when I was primarily playing everyone was complaining how inferior pure physical was to elemental based weapons(specifically fire/lightning). I never adequately explored this because I went straight down the lightning path with my laito as soon as I got to Anor Lando. The damage was pretty great, but I guess I can see how physical path+weapon enhancement can churn out some pretty crazy numbers. I should check out how the pvp scene has developed, it was a lot of fun back when it was released.

5) Atmosphere is good, but not as consistent or menacing as the original. The guy who was saying that there are a lot of "copy paste areas" is a fucking retard. If anything, the areas you go through vary too MUCH. You can go from a mysterious forest, to a barren castle, to a crazy fortress of traps and death all in a span of a few minutes. The game is more open than the original, but the tone is less consistent.

well, it's less consistent because you don't travel through a disconnected hub (the nexus) to go from one "themed area" to the next. if you took DeS' areas and connected them the disparity in tone would've been just as jarring if not more so

Yeah, having no hub connection did affect the atmosphere, but Dark souls locations are generally more diverse overall. Tomb of the giants and blight-town are chilling, but I don't think they compare to Tower of Latria or the Valley of Defilement. DkS is more grandiose in its art direction with locations like Anor Lando and the Duke's Palace. Certainly not bad, but I missed that unsettling feeling exploring areas in Demon's souls.

I'm fucking glad both RoF, and TWoP got nerfed to the ground. I might have to build a dex pvp character one of these days....

 

[Xi]

...

The truth about Demon Souls and Dark Souls is that they are unlike other console games. They are hardcore, action-roleplaying games. You cannot win by mashing buttons. Honestly, these games fit on PC just fine. The hardcore PC crowd will eat them up. However, if you don't like action games (especially difficult actions games) you won't like this no matter what we say.

Still, character development does have an effect on how you progress through the game. Learning combat AI is very important (you can't win fights unless you do). Finally, you will die a lot, but the game will reward your hard work. You'll want to just keep on playing. It's a great game, full of lots of little secrets, strategies, and equipment combinations. If you like action-RPGs you will like this. It's not a button masher like Reckoning was. If you play that way, like others have said, you'll be stuck in the tutorial.

Also, if you are mildly retarded, this game is not for you. You'll hate the learning curve.

I've just read the other (IGN thinks blablabla) thread in its entirety, do you bros still have some framerate drops in certain areas now tha the game is patched proper? Also, this input delay for drinking potions etc - is that fixed? After reading all that I have to say I am pumped to die a lot in this game. :D

The framerate without a single patch was never unplayable. Just that in a few areas, because the environments were so huge and open, became a bit sluggish. The patches definitely help. Don't even worry about this. It's a non-issue. I've played at least 150 Hours with multiple character builds. IMHO, great game.

 

[praetor]

Oh interesting. I remember back in October when I was primarily playing everyone was complaining how inferior pure physical was to elemental based weapons(specifically fire/lightning). I never adequately explored this because I went straight down the lightning path with my laito as soon as I got to Anor Lando. The damage was pretty great, but I guess I can see how physical path+weapon enhancement can churn out some pretty crazy numbers. I should check out how the pvp scene has developed, it was a lot of fun back when it was released.

even without buffs normal (or other "pure" weapons like the moonlight sword or butterfly horn) weapons will outdamage elementals more often than not because of their split damage. occult/enchanted could compete but you need the respective stats in the 50ies or above (and then you also get some insanely powerful buffs)

Yeah, having no hub connection did affect the atmosphere, but Dark souls locations are generally more diverse overall. Tomb of the giants and blight-town are chilling, but I don't think they compare to Tower of Latria or the Valley of Defilement. DkS is more grandiose in its art direction with locations like Anor Lando and the Duke's Palace. Certainly not bad, but I missed that unsettling feeling exploring areas in Demon's souls.

they are more diverse, yes, but imo it's because DeS was "limited" (not the best choice of word. but it's 2am and i'm tired :p) by the hub/level concept (it effectively had 5 locations).

atmosphere-wise, if found New Londo far more unsettling than anything in DeS (too bad it's so obviously unfinished ), but Latria remains my favourite level in the series because it has the perfect balance of creepiness, cool enemies, overall difficulty and great level design

I'm fucking glad both RoF, and TWoP got nerfed to the ground. I might have to build a dex pvp character one of these days....

dex is pretty awesome. be sure to get it to 45 (the cap for casting speed) and have some 14-19 att for some pyro in your left hand (chaos fireball, combustion, fire tempest all work great, as does firesurge), get the iaito, chaos blade, balder side sword, great scythe, lifehunt scythe, falchion, silver knight spear and quelaag's sword and you're all set for some major fun (you could also mix it up with a lightning avelyn or composite bow in your left hand). if you sacrifice a bit of vitality and endurance (easily made up by the RoFaP) you can even take int to 32 or fth to 30 for some pretty good buffs and spells (crystal soulmass for the int, WoG, vow of silence, force, great magic barrier for fth) or maybe just get your int to 15 for one of the most stat-cost-efficient buffs (great magic weapons with oolacile catalyst) and some decent utility spells (hidden weapon, chameleon)

edit: here's the best stat calculator around so play around with it a bit before committing to a build