From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Silverfish]

My point is that the area should be as complexly interconnected and enriching to explore as Undead Burg was.

Yeah, I can see how different areas in a game offering different experiences from one another is a problem.

They're all within five minutes of each other because the area is basically devoid of interesting content.

The bosses themselves are the interesting content.

It's a different experience because you'll experience double the boredom once you have the ring.

Sorry dude, but I wasn't talking about Izalith and the lava ring (which I feel was actually pretty obvious from context). Specifically, I was talking about running through the Demon Ruins early to pick up either of the embers stored there, neither of which requires the lava ring to obtain. The temptation is to go early, since Ceaseless is pretty easy to beat, grab the ember of your choice and make a disgustingly powerful weapon very early in the game. The rub is that it's considerably tougher with weapons that haven't been upgraded all that much and with a dearth of consumable items. Of course, it's also far more engaging than going through the area when you're meant to (post-lordvessel) where it's less eventful because you're kitted out by that point.

 

[curds]

Yeah, I can see how different areas in a game offering different experiences from one another is a problem.

The problem is not that they are different, it's that the level design is literally much worse in one of those areas than it is in the other.

The bosses themselves are the interesting content.

But they aren't interesting.

 

[Silverfish]

The problem is not that they are different, it's that the level design is literally much worse in one of those areas than it is in the other.

They're not trying, even remotely, to do the same thing though. I'd agree wholeheartedly if you said that DS3's High Wall wasn't a good as the Burg or that Farron Keep is better than the Blighttown swamp because those areas are analogous to each other. Saying that the level design of the Demon Ruins isn't as good as the Burg is like saying that Yngwie Malmsteen isn't a good basketball player.

But they aren't interesting.

They are. Ceaseless is cool since he offers various takedown options (making him fall from the ledge, hiding in the hallway and baiting out his distance strikes or just facing him head-on), Firesage would be a letdown (the third Asylum demon) if he didn't have one of the funniest quirks of any boss in the series and Centipede has the lava (like I mentioned with BoC, I'm pretty high on bosses that incorporate environmental hazards) and his somewhat unique gimmick of cutting off his body parts, which has plusses and minuses. I'll take those three over "Artorias, but ____________" that DS3 hands out like candy.

 

[Blaine]

My point is that the area should be as complexly interconnected and enriching to explore as Undead Burg was.

Yeah, I can see how different areas in a game offering different experiences from one another is a problem.

It's a problem when the difference is that one of those areas has far inferior level design—and by "level design" I mean the layout of the physical environment and how objects (mobs, treasured, etc.) are positioned and scripted within that physical environment. Two layouts can be wildly different physically and appearance wise, yet still exhibit excellence in level design.

So, yes, the layouts of Undead Burg and Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith are wildly different. That isn't a problem. The problem is that, while both are very different, only one of them also exhibits poor level design doctrine.

Nearly all of the things you like about Demon Ruins and Lost Izalith could still be included in a layout that exhibits excellent level design. That's the critical factor that you seem to have missed. No matter how much other great stuff is in the area, nor how fun you find the boss fights, its level design is still bad.

The bosses themselves are the interesting content.

Your basic argument here is that because you like the bosses, and because there are several of them, the shitty level design is excused. I beg to differ. In such an otherwise excellent game, phoning in the level design was a damn shame. No doubt it was due to time and money constraints, but it is what it is... and it's bad.

 

[Silverfish]

Your basic argument here is that because you like the bosses, and because there are several of them, the shitty level design is excused.

My argument is that the level design isn't bad, not that something excuses it.

 

[Parsifarka]

Funny, I found each boss in Lost Izalith/Demonic Ruins to be worse than the one that came before, reaching what at the time I thought to be the rock bottom of the game with the stupid Centipede (I did nothing but press roll and attack mindlessly)... and then came Bed of Chaos, of course.

I actually didn't find the level design THAT bad, maybe it had to do with my expectations already being set very low by the many complaints I had read before playing the game, but at that point I just wanted to get fast to the finish line because my build was trampling on everything like a juggernaut and I felt I had already conquered the game, so I didn't mind the level being straightforward —it was the bosses that were the worst offenders, a chore list adding nothing but nuisance to what I had already seen and done.

 

[Blaine]

Your basic argument here is that because you like the bosses, and because there are several of them, the shitty level design is excused.

My argument is that the level design isn't bad, not that something excuses it.

Yet your arguments pertain only to the bosses, the treasures, and the possibility to grab something powerful earlier than typical.

None of those things pertain directly to the level design, any more than the furniture placed inside a house pertain directly to the design of the house itself. Imperfect analogy, but it'll do.

"It's just different" is a non-argument. A four-year-old's scribbles are also different from calligraphy.

 

[Blaine]

 

[Silverfish]

Yet your arguments pertain only to the bosses, the treasures, and the possibility to grab something powerful earlier than typical.

Right, because traversing the area (which is what I thought we were talking about) is more engaging when done early (because of the stuff).

"It's just different" is a non-argument.

It's a pretty valid argument that a blasted hellscape populated by giant demons wouldn't be laid out similarly to a decaying city. It's just common sense.

 

[Blaine]

But it is a decaying city. It's the decaying city inundated by gigantic roots, there's a big lever-operated door with bugs on the other side, there's a great cistern full of lamprey-like creatures, there's an elevator back up to Quelaag's Toasted Flakes, not to mention the pathway to Ceaseless Discharge, the path to the Firesage Demon with all the steps and archways, the stonework in Lost Izalith itself....

There's way less "city" in Tomb of Giants than there is in Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith.

There is a way to convey "blasted hellscape" that isn't desolate and boring, I assure you. I don't think you're really even capable of grasping what I'm talking about here, because you seem determined not to—but I think that's my perception. To be fair, a lot of people don't give a shit about environmental complexity/challenge, and I strongly suspect you're one of those people. It's just not very important to you.

 

[Silverfish]

I don't think you're really even capable of grasping what I'm talking about here,

I get what you're talking about. I disagree with you.

To be fair, a lot of people don't give a shit about environmental complexity/challenge, and I strongly suspect you're one of those people. It's just not very important to you.

The complexity and challenge of environments is important to me, but not in every area of every game. I dig the straightforward nature of Demon Ruins / Izalith because DS already has the Burg, Sen's, Anor Londo and the Painted World. Those areas are all great, but without contrast, it'd just be a repetitive blob. I'm high on Ash Lake, The Duke's Archives and the Kiln for the same reason.

 

[Blaine]

From my perspective, a boss is the capstone to an interesting and stimulating level design. The treasure rewards are there to encourage risk-taking, paying attention to detail, and probing for inobvious pathways within the level's layout. The enemies are there to provide challenge, encourage experimentation, punish carelessness, and frankly to inspire a feeling of dread.

The gestalt exists to "immerse"—immersion being a concept more abstract and almost as nebulous as the term "RPG" itself.

All elements are lessened when one of them is completely phoned in. If I just wanted nice boss fights, then I'd play Monster Hunter.

Basically, what you're talking about (in my view) is an amalgamation of stuff you like. I don't just want an amalgam; I want a gestalt.

 

[Silverfish]

If I just wanted nice boss fights, then I'd play Monster Hunter.

In the hopes that they'll eventually offer one?

 

[Blaine]

There are plenty of good boss fights to be had in the MH franchise—a greater proportion than in DS1, that's for sure. Some of the fights in DS1 were yawnfests. The Moonlight Butterfly, Gaping Dragon, Iron Golem, Qualaag, Pinwheel, and Ceaseless Discharge spring directly to mind. Some (Capra, Taurus, Asylum, etc.) are "learning bosses," so I give them a pass.

Artorias, Manus, Kalameet, Four Kings, Ornstein and Smough, and frankly Bell Gargoyles (given the point when they're encountered) are the standout bosses by far. Three of these were added post-release.

There are fights that difficult in the MH franchise, be assured. Of course, "difficulty" in this context is almost always defined as "pres butan at correct fifth of a second after observing tell," "don't get greedy," and "mind positioning." Which is fair enough. There are absolutely monsters in MH that require all three.

 

[Silverfish]

There are plenty of good boss fights to be had in the MH franchise

We've disagreed on a few topics here and there, but this is the first time I'm going to have to call you a liar.

Artorias, Manus, Kalameet, Four Kings, Ornstein and Smough, and frankly Bell Gargoyles (given the point when they're encountered) are the standout bosses by far.

Most of those are pretty good, but Artorias is just the dollar store Capra Demon.

 

[The_Mask]

Artorias is just the dollar store Capra Demon.

Can't plunge Artorias though.

 

[Silverfish]

Can't plunge Artorias though.

I agree that Artorias offers less variety.

 

[Black Angel]

Most of those are pretty good, but Artorias is just the dollar store Capra Demon.

 

[Silverfish]

I admit it's an unusual take, but the tactics used against both are pretty much the same, but Capra at least has the cramped arena and the dogs to add a little spice. Artorias is cooler both visually and especially from a lore perspective, but he's a gimmie in relation to the other dlc bosses.

 

[Black Angel]

I admit it's an unusual take, but the tactics used against both are pretty much the same, but Capra at least has the cramped arena and the dogs to add a little spice. Artorias is cooler both visually and especially from a lore perspective, but he's a gimmie in relation to the other dlc bosses.

The dynamics are already fundamentally different considering Artorias can buff himself AND it can be canceled if you can stagger him, so I'm not sure what the fuck are you talking about.

 

[NJClaw]

Most of those are pretty good, but Artorias is just the dollar store Capra Demon.

How are the two even remotely similar? Sure, they are two bipedal bosses in a videogame, so I guess they're more similar than, let's say, Artorias and Joe Biden. But it ends here. The Capra Demon has 3 attacks with a very long wind-up that gives you plenty of time to retreat, heal, and assess the situation. Artorias attacks you relentlessly and, unless you have an optimized build that allows you to bully him, makes it very hard for you to create enough space to heal reliably.

 

[Silverfish]

Artorias can buff himself AND it can be canceled if you can stagger him

Artorias can buff himself... which doesn't change anything. Turns out dodging a sword and dodging a sword that does more damage isn't all that different.

How are the two even remotely similar?

They share a similar height and use similarly sized weapons. As I said, the tactics you use against both are the same, dodge or block the big sword swings and punish. The problems with Artorias are that he's quite simplistic, but doesn't have anything to mix up or complicate the fight, like Capra and his dogs and that his arena doesn't compliment his fighting style. Capra's threatening because he uses giant, man-sized weapons in a small area, forcing a close-quarters fight where he has an advantage. Artorias has a fairly large area, making it easy to avoid him and take breathers as you need (not that you will because he's easier than a single mom when the rent's due).

 

[Black Angel]

You're right.

What a shit game, you only roll and roll to dodge enemy attacks.

 

[Silverfish]

You're right.

What a shit game, you only roll and roll to dodge enemy attacks.

"I think two bosses are very similar."

"Why are you calling the game shit?"

 

[mediocrepoet]

I noticed how an enemy has attacks that you have to dodge and then counterattack and then I noticed how another enemy also has attacks that you have to dodge and counterattack. Funny how every enemy is the same as every other enemy. Artorias is just budget hollow guardsman.