From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Black Angel]

The library consists of two symmetrical mirror-image boxes placed end to end, one literally darker than the other just so you can tell the difference between each half; and on toward the Crystal Caves, a flat square of grass with golems plonked down on it.

The enemies are more obnoxious than lethal (I died once, from a fall while trying to get the avelyn), and too numerous considering how repetitive they are.

Sounds like a level that deserves a spot in the world of a Souls game, no?

And then there's the unwinnable boss fight, a thing that shouldn't ever have been in a Souls game. I knew it was coming, but it has no business in the game.

Fair point, I agree.

I got the avelyn in only two tries, and the Duke's Archives represent some of the shittiest level design I've seen in DS.

....

Total shit area in pretty much every way.

Huh?

 

[Blaine]

Lore is and must always be subservient to good design and quality production.

I disagree. I think design and production should serve the lore. Imagine the world, and build the game around it.

If an aspect of the world that a creator is building will lead to subpar design or production, then the creator needs to think again.

Your argument is very clever, and I salute it—particularly if you happen to be aware of my history of pulpit-banging about world-building—but its superior counterargument is built right into it. You mentioned imagination? Imagination is effectively unlimited, so the creator should continue to exercise his imagination until the lore of his world is harmonious with the constraints within he must work—and all mortal works of fiction are subject to constraints.

I can think of quite a few creators to whose works scholars' entire lifetimes continue to be devoted to this day, and all of them followed that principle: lore in harmony with production.

Also, being a little less lofty here, the Codex is rife with examples of posters excusing shitty game design decisions with "Well, it's because of the lore, so it's fine." Nope. Shit argument.

 

[The_Mask]

You're cool, Blaine.

 

[curds]

Design and production should suit the lore

But lore should be designed with good gameplay in mind

 

[Parsifarka]

It's not a win or lose situation, it's just a lose situation that you're forced to play through. When you realize it, you can just sit there and wait to be killed.

I was very confused when I experienced it a couple of months ago for the first time: I ran towards the boss as soon as I entered the room to slice him with my uchi, but of course I couldn't reach him due to the platform he stands on... nor could he hit me, for I stood in what turned out to be a blind spot for his spells.
Bewildered, I threw all my pyromancies at him only to see his health immediately restored, while his magic bombs dropped behind my back, not touching me. After a minute or so, not knowing what to do, I walked back to the danger zone and let him hit me four or five times till I died.
It's offensively stupid.

Otherwise I liked the level except for the small grove outside, which would be embarrassing as a one-man Early Access demo and stands as one of the lowest points in level design not just in the game but in the history of professional game production.
Funny how many lament the rushiness and/or incompetence of Lost Izalith/Demonic Ruins but this spot is so repugnant people prefer to just forget about it.

What a game, that still shines beneath so, so much jank.

 

[Ravielsk]

The thing with Seath is that the game already has a perfectly viable solution for the fight that would still let the player beat him and keep him immortal. Just make him respawn like the player. Have a regular boss fight which the player can win but after getting him to 0 HP he just respawns like the player does. Still a boss fight you can beat and the guy remains immortal until the second rematch, just less stupid.

 

[Black Angel]

Duke's Archives level is fine, perhaps still not as good as pre-Lordvessel levels, but still a thousand miles ahead of Demon Ruins/Lost Izalith. The thing is, without that forced death the first time encountering Seath, you would not only not be able to progress, you also wouldn't experience the best moment that the level has to offer. And then there's the matter of fact that wihout fighting Seath there and then the first time you meet, you wouldn't be able to figure out that he's immortal and he probably have a source that needs to be broken before you can damage him properly.

Yes, you could probably have it done away with a simple cutscenes, but the part regarding Seath's immortality and the connection with the Crystal Cave needs to be something the player experience firsthand, in real-time. I can't think of a way of having players figure that part out with a cutscene, plus that's just not how Fromsoft roll.

But yeah, they probably need to think it through better. I feel like instead of being forced to die, you could maybe place a cleverly hidden teleportation circle on the floor somewhere on that first boss room, maybe even as a trap.

 

[curds]

I can't think of a way of having players figure that part out with a cutscene

That is a good point, actually.

 

[Rafidur]

HP penalty upon death like DS2 or losing the health bonus from using embers like DS3

It's the exact same fucking thing, it's just presented nicer in DS3.

 

[Silverfish]

I agree, just making the comparison between those two games and DS1.

 

[Black Angel]

 

[Blaine]

I hadn't actually given it more than a moments thought before, but now I think about it, it's probably one of the worst design choices in what is otherwise a near flawless game.

I wouldn't call it flawless, because a good chunk of the post-Lordvessel level designs are quite barebones and rushed.

Undead Burg, Blighttown, Sen's Fortress, Anor Londo, and Painted World are pretty great, a true pleasure to explore. I hardly need detail the particulars of good level design again.

Duke's Archives is merely the best of the trash—and the Crystal Caves, far from being difficult, can simply be jogged through with no trouble right to the boss. The breezy boss run isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the Crystal Caves are actually small and very linear, just "pretzeled." A thinly-disguised linear corridor is still a linear corridor. The two library halls, despite being a repetitive copy-paste job, are the best portion of the area, because at least you have to use your noggin a bit to get the crossbow and access the necessary balconies.

Demon Ruins and Lost Izalith are simply the worst of them. Really, everything post-Lordvessel is questionable at best. As far as PvE goes, if you're a fan of strong level design, you might as well stop when you reach the big titties and then defeat Artorias.

 

[Ravielsk]

HP penalty upon death like DS2 or losing the health bonus from using embers like DS3

It's the exact same fucking thing, it's just presented nicer in DS3.

Nah, in DS3 the embers are a genuine buff that gives you way more HP than you would have otherwise. The game is perfectly balanced for a un-embered character(well unless you insist on putting no souls into HP). DS2 is balanced for a full HP character but hides the ring that at least gives you some workable floor for the HP reduction.

 

[Blaine]

DS2's hollowing mechanic is absolutely retarded—especially since, after a certain point, you can rake in human effigies by the bushel. The earliest without ascetics would be farming the basement skeletons while in Covenant of Champions (with SotFS), and that's very early indeed.

In DS1, hollowing made perfect sense: No summons, NPC phantoms (i.e. unique drops), or kindling; but no direct invasions, either. There was no HP penalty because it's foolish to place an escalating handicap on players who are having trouble with an area. The area is clearly difficult enough for them already. It really just makes absolutely no sense at all. Worse, this is only an issue early in the game, and it's doubly bad for anyone who happens to be playing a Souls game for the first time.

It was enough to allow anyone to be invaded at any time... EXCEPT, WAIT! You can burn effigies to prevent invasions! So by the time you have a farming method worked out, you can travel with near-impunity.

Still and all, I enjoyed DS2 about as much as I enjoyed DS1. It's DS3 that I didn't like: far too many bonfires (ruining the level design and the need for long, risky expeditions), too many Artorias clones, and other things that I've (thankfully) forgotten.

 

[curds]

I wouldn't call it flawless, because a good chunk of the post-Lordvessel level designs are quite barebones and rushed.

Yeah, I was careful to say near-flawless. I don't like to come across as a blind fanboy even though I probably am, somewhat.

I agree it takes a noticeable dip in quality after finding the Lordvessel, but the game's certainly worth finishing; there's some good stuff in that last third (along with some shit). I think to call it questionable at best is harsh, though there are many who'd agree with you, I think.

 

[Silverfish]

Demon Ruins and Lost Izalith are simply the worst of them. Really, everything post-Lordvessel is questionable at best.

Never understood the Demon Ruins / Izalith haters. Demon Ruins has a boss rush, unique gimmicks in two of its three boss fights, two extremely useful embers that make gunning for the area earlier than you should way too tempting and, before From patched the game into oblivion, it used to have this awesome bit where the capra demons guarding the bonfire would aggro early and rush you on the narrow ledge leading down to it. Izalith is deceptively massive with three major sections, the most unexpectedly fair enemies in the game (the dragon butts), the coolest shortcut in the game that doesn't involve rounding back to Firelink and a severely underrated boss.

 

[Wunderbar]

Demon Ruins and Lost Izalith are simply the worst of them. Really, everything post-Lordvessel is questionable at best.

Never understood the Demon Ruins / Izalith haters.

it's not easy on the eyes.

 

[Blaine]

Never understood the Demon Ruins / Izalith haters.

Demon Ruins looks to me like nothing so much as a test level that someone copy-pasted together in a few days, then clicked here and there to place some enemy spawn points and a few treasures. There is even some endless negative space to be seen behind clusters of roots and so on. It's big, but it also feels desolate and empty. Interconnected, dense areas with plenty of dangerous and interesting things throughout are a strength of most of DS1. While "I can see the next area from here" is often cited as a strength of DS1, you shouldn't be getting there by jogging for several minutes down a desolate and uninteresting pathway.

I mean, there's a huge lava field with five identical demons plonked on it guarding a couple of shining treasure spots and virtually no other interesting features. Come on, man. That shit ain't Undead Burg.

Demon Ruins has a boss rush, unique gimmicks in two of its three boss fights....

Yet the "boss rush" consists of reused models—the Capra Demon, the Taurus Demon, and as a bonus, a flaming Stray Demon. Palette swaps are nothing new in games and especially RPGs, but this doesn't help your argument.

Of the unique enemies, the rock burrowers can noclip you through the hastily put-together level geometry with their grab attacks, and the fire-spitting floating statues are arguably the easiest enemies in the entire game. They're like hellhounds if hellhounds were way less mobile.

...two extremely useful embers that make gunning for the area earlier than you should way too tempting...

Some of the loot is great, but that doesn't improve the level design simply by its presence and desirability.

...and a severely underrated boss.

Must be the Centipede Demon, which I haven't fought yet. Can't be either of the other two. I will say that most of Lost Izalith remains unexplored for me; I killed some lamprey monsters with the Onion Knight, grabbed the Sunlight Maggot, and then pretty much fucked off directly to the Tomb of the Giants.

 

[Silverfish]

I mean, there's a huge lava field with five identical demons plonked on it guarding a couple of shining treasure spots and virtually no other interesting features. Come on, man. That shit ain't Undead Burg.

It doesn't need to be. DS already has an Undead Burg.

Yet the "boss rush" consists of reused models—the Capra Demon, the Taurus Demon, and as a bonus, a flaming Stray Demon.

The boss rush is Ceaseless Discharge, Firesage and Centipede Demon all within five minutes of each other. The recycled Capra and Taurus demons are nice (to me), but not what I was talking about.

Some of the loot is great, but that doesn't improve the level design simply by its presence and desirability.

It does. Moving through the area before you're properly equipped is a significantly different experience that doing so normally.

Must be the Centipede Demon, which I haven't fought yet. Can't be either of the other two.

Bed of Chaos. He's a magnet for shit takes from the fanbase.

 

[curds]

Bed of Chaos. He's a magnet for shit takes from the fanbase.

Just curious, is there anything you don't like about this game?

 

[Black Angel]

Duke's Archives is merely the best of the trash—and the Crystal Caves, far from being difficult, can simply be jogged through with no trouble right to the boss. The breezy boss run isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the Crystal Caves are actually small and very linear, just "pretzeled." A thinly-disguised linear corridor is still a linear corridor. The two library halls, despite being a repetitive copy-paste job, are the best portion of the area, because at least you have to use your noggin a bit to get the crossbow and access the necessary balconies.

I also wouldn't call the game flawless or even near-flawless. However, I also wouldn't go as far as saying Duke's Archives as merely the best of the trash; I wouldn't call it trash at all. It's supposed to be an Archives, as in an oversized library or even close to a museum. How do you design one of those in real life? Remember that Fromsoft goes on a trip to research irl locations to adapt to their game

0:24 shows George Peabody Library as the source of template for Duke's Archives. Just to make myself clear here, I'm not 'excusing' anything, since in my views, the level is *not* trash at all. So, again, I'm asking you; how do you design and build an Archives?

As for Crystal Caves, I guess it's a pretty straightforward 'level'. But I doubt it would be okay to design yet another, more elaborate and longer level after the Archives; remember, after that first encounter with Seath, you're trapped in a section of the level that would probably exhaust you mentally when you first play the game. In other words, the Archives is already a long enough level to make up for how short Crystal Cave is. The theme between these two levels is also distinct enough to warrant a separation, unlike, say, The Gutter and The Black Gulch, which could've been combined into one big level with the environment slowly but steadily changes into a green poisonous gulch as you descent down the gutter (pun intended with all my heart).

The flat square of grass between the Caves and the Archives is irredeemable, though. I feel like they could put some kind of back garden here as a sign of nobility, perhaps ruined to showcase Seath's descent into madness, instead of a plain square of kusa.

Never understood the Demon Ruins / Izalith haters. Demon Ruins has a boss rush, unique gimmicks in two of its three boss fights, two extremely useful embers that make gunning for the area earlier than you should way too tempting and, before From patched the game into oblivion, it used to have this awesome bit where the capra demons guarding the bonfire would aggro early and rush you on the narrow ledge leading down to it. Izalith is deceptively massive with three major sections, the most unexpectedly fair enemies in the game (the dragon butts), the coolest shortcut in the game that doesn't involve rounding back to Firelink and a severely underrated boss.

That's one way to look at it, and I agree with a couple of 'em. But the actual level and environmental designs aside, the overabundance of copy-pasted enemies is already a sign of decline in quality, as it became clear that they're running out of time. While the Ceaseless Discharge and Centipede Demon seemed to have more going on for them

Spoiler

I didn't know Ceaseless ripped his arm off, nor did I know Centipede Demon would spawn more centipedes as you cut its limbs off (or that you can even cut off its limbs at all)

the Demon Firesage is yet another variant of the Asylum Demon, but on fire; in other words, a reskin. Bed of Chaos is just badly designed, a gimmick bossfight that requires a couple of trials and errors to properly beat, even for the first time? Get out of here. I'm glad they kept the 'skip' in, though, just as much as I'm grateful that they kept the glitch for Demon of Hatred in Sekiro.
I'm not sure how the dragon butts are 'fair', but not even the Lore™ could justify them being copy-pasted all over the place.

Yet the "boss rush" consists of reused models—the Capra Demon, the Taurus Demon, and as a bonus, a flaming Stray Demon.

The boss rush is Ceaseless Discharge, Firesage and Centipede Demon all within five minutes of each other. The recycled Capra and Taurus demons are nice (to me), but not what I was talking about.

The boss rush would've been nice if it's coupled with good encounter designs that's already present throughout the other parts of the game.

Must be the Centipede Demon, which I haven't fought yet. Can't be either of the other two.

Bed of Chaos. He's a magnet for shit takes from the fanbase.

What the fuck

 

[The_Mask]

I don't have an issue with Demon Ruins. They're pretty much what they're supposed to be: an immitation of a kiln overrun by demons, and a few extra things to keep it spicy

I also disagree that the BoC is poor design. Mandatory post as to why right here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/211420/discussions/0/143388511228730960/

Lost Izalith itself IS pretty weak though. The dragon butts are pretty annoying. Much of the area feels like "we ran out of money". In the PTDE it also had unfinished textures.
It's okay, I guess. In the end it just shows that Dark Souls was made by people. Hungry artists that worked hard. If anything, it makes it even better.

 

[Lutte]

Still and all, I enjoyed DS2 about as much as I enjoyed DS1. It's DS3 that I didn't like: far too many bonfires (ruining the level design and the need for long, risky expeditions), too many Artorias clones, and other things that I've (thankfully) forgotten.

If only bonfires were the only thing ruining the level design.
My biggest gripe with DS3 has to do with level design, and I don't mean "wew it's not as interconnected as DS1" because I never cared about that. No, I mean, level design as in how it ties to the gameplay, encounter design, traps, how hard it is to find the next path and if they can encourage you to engage enemies while you're stopping to look around etc. Most levels are boring shite, I was strutting around like a speedrunner in many levels in my first playthrough, not always killing enemies because it felt pointless, particularly in areas like road of sacrifice and farron. DS3 has taken a great liking to making gigantic, wide spaces everywhere (not inherently bad with the right encounter design and enemy roster, see: Painted World), even enclosed areas like the cathedral do very little to encourage you to engage with the world. It's easier for me to name the few decent levels of DS3 : Highwall of Lothric, Undead Settlement, Irrithyl (I'm fond of the "sneaking" minigame you can play against the moving patrols), Irrithyl Dungeon, Profaned Capital, Painted World of Ariandel. Everything else is dogshit.
DS3 has to my personal taste the best boss roster of the 3 DS, but 90% of the time in a first run in a souls game is spent interacting with levels and it was such an utter failure in so many ways there. The monotony of the color palette and art being very samey across the whole game and DLC didn't help either. I was sick of brown shit and silver grey after a while.

DS3 main game has nothing that approaches the quality of levels like upper blighttown (the swamp is trash tho'), Sen's Fortress (imho, a benchmark, an examplar of everything a Souls level should aspire to be, it condenses the very soul of souls game in a tight package), The Depths, Painted World of Ariamis, No Man's Wharf, Iron Keep, Tseldora, Amana...

The Painted World dlc though is peak souls quality and well worth exploring every nook and cranny carefully. The layout is complex enough and the encounter design is filled with choke points to the point where it's one of the few levels where I can still mess up when I replay the game with the mindset to boss rush and speedrun levels, the level is still engaging even when you know it by heart and are just trying to avoid enemies to rush to the bosses. Then they went and made another piece of dogshit in the form of The Ringed City.. sigh. How could it have been the same people making those two things? TRC's early levels are entirely reliant on gimmicks that seem threatening at first but are easily avoided, the levels with the gimmicks neutralized (like the angel area) become as boring as Izalith, the swamp is easily the most pointless swamp of the souls series.. if it didn't have Midir and Gael I would call it a waste of money.

 

[Silverfish]

Just curious, is there anything you don't like about this game?

Sure. The weapon upgrade system is pretty silly in this one, with all of the different embers and rainbow titanite shards. DS2's streamlining of it was a mercy killing. Moreover, some of the upgrade types are next to useless. Raw weapons didn't come into their own until DS2, serving as straight downgrades of even +10 weapons here. Magic weapons have lower intelligence scaling than enchanted, but the enchanted ember is found hours earlier, rendering the magic path totally obsolete. Occult weapons have great faith scaling, but have a damage modifier that's useful for only about five enemies, who laughably already have other weaknesses. The Tomb of the Giants is a cool idea, a near pitch-black area with powerful enemies behind every corner, but with multiple ways to light the area and all but one of the enemies being a piece of piss to avoid, it could have been handled a little better. Darkroot Garden has the most retarded ambush in gaming history. Ray Charles could have seen it coming. DS1 is incredibly stingy with upgrade materials, necessitating farming the bland slug enemies in Blighttown to upgrade anything beyond your primary weapon.

What the fuck

BoC is a great boss fight, despite the community's general sentiment. It's fair, damage done to its orbs persists even if you die. It incorporates various environmental hazards, making it fairly unique not only for DS1, but for the franchise in general. It doesn't have a hard counter in terms of character builds and it has a short runback.

 

[Blaine]

It doesn't need to be. DS already has an Undead Burg.

My point is that the area should be as complexly interconnected and enriching to explore as Undead Burg was. Instead it's a flat, boring plain with some shit plonked down on it.

The boss rush is Ceaseless Discharge, Firesage and Centipede Demon all within five minutes of each other.

They're all within five minutes of each other because the area is basically devoid of interesting content. You really are proving my point, here.

Anyway, Ceaseless Estus and Stray Demon #3 barely even count. Ceaseless Discharge truly typifies the area, since to reach it you take a three-minute jog down an almost entirely featureless and boring linear corridor.

It does. Moving through the area before you're properly equipped is a significantly different experience that doing so normally.

"You must have this MacGuffin to progress" doesn't add much of anything in a content vacuum—especially when you'll be jogging over an empty, featureless plain yet again after you figure out that you need a MacGuffin to proceed without (very likely) likely dying.

So yeah, that's a fair point. It's a different experience because you'll experience double the boredom once you have the ring.