From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[Black Angel]

Again, are we 100% absolutely sure that Manus *is* THE Furtive Pygmy?

Yeah.

Proof?

 

[Silverfish]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain

 

[Akratus II]

According to a redditor:

Prologue:

Then, from the Dark, They came And found the Souls of Lords within the flame.

Nito, the first of the dead The Witch of Izalith, and her daughters of chaos Gwyn, the Lord of Sunlight, and his faithful knights

And the furtive (stealthy / making effort to avoid attention) pygmy, so easily forgotten"

Kaathe:

After the advent of fire, the ancient lords found the three souls. But your progenitor (the originator / the earliest ancestor / patient zero so to speak) found a fourth, unique soul. The Dark Soul. Your ancestor claimed the Dark Soul and waited for Fire to subside.

Marvelous Chester:

Believe it or not… Oolacile has brought the Abyss upon itself. Fooled by that toothy serpent, they upturned the grave of primeval (the earliest incarnation of / ancient) man, and incited his ornery wrath.

The prologue says the Pygmy found the Dark Soul, Kaathe says the one who found the Dark Soul is man's original ancestor, and Chester says the first ancestor of man is the one who was roused by the residents of Oolacile. If A = B, and B = C, then A = C.

 

[Black Angel]

According to a redditor:

Prologue:

Then, from the Dark, They came And found the Souls of Lords within the flame.

Nito, the first of the dead The Witch of Izalith, and her daughters of chaos Gwyn, the Lord of Sunlight, and his faithful knights

And the furtive (stealthy / making effort to avoid attention) pygmy, so easily forgotten"

Kaathe:

After the advent of fire, the ancient lords found the three souls. But your progenitor (the originator / the earliest ancestor / patient zero so to speak) found a fourth, unique soul. The Dark Soul. Your ancestor claimed the Dark Soul and waited for Fire to subside.

Marvelous Chester:

Believe it or not… Oolacile has brought the Abyss upon itself. Fooled by that toothy serpent, they upturned the grave of primeval (the earliest incarnation of / ancient) man, and incited his ornery wrath.

The prologue says the Pygmy found the Dark Soul, Kaathe says the one who found the Dark Soul is man's original ancestor, and Chester says the first ancestor of man is the one who was roused by the residents of Oolacile. If A = B, and B = C, then A = C.

Once again, that Redditor missed the part where Chester didn't specify if it was *a* primeval man or *the* primeval man, and Fromsoft acknowledged this with the Ringed City DLC.

If Manus was really THE Furtive Pygmy mentioned in the intro, you'd think either Fromsoft would be a bit more obvious about it (like, say, have extra dialogue with Kaathe after you're done with the DLC, like the alternate cutscene with Sif), or that the community would talk about it but so far, other than one Codexer and that Redditor I've never seen anyone concluding that Manus = The Furtive Pygmy.

 

[MajorMace]

Starting your post with "according to reddit" unironically should grant you some tag.

 

[Caim]

Starting your post with "according to reddit" unironically should grant you some tag.

Yeah, the "BANNED" one.

 

[gerey]

I always thought that the beginning intro was a bedtime story told from the perspective of the rulers. Meaning either giants, or the witches. Humans, in general, were treated worse than cattle.

Gwyn had an elevator specifically made for them. Discrimination.
Nito had their men sacrifice their women and children to him. To the point where so many died that it became a "fountain" of humanity.
Seath experimented on them, with little oversight.
Gwyndolyn lied to them, turning them against each other.

That's debatable. The room where you fight Ornstein and Smough has two separate lifts, one for giants and the other for humans. Also, it bears noticing that all the lifts in the game can be activated and used by regular humans. It only makes sense to design infrastructure with the bigger individuals in mind, since the smaller humans aren't going to be negatively affected by the larger lifts.

As for the rest, we don't know when the gods began abusing their subjects. It's very likely that they began to do so as insanity started to consume more and more of their rank.

It also bears mentioning that despite his deprived state, Gwyn is still guarding the first flame and hanging on despite being little more than a crazed, rotting corpse.

Also, I don't buy into the Age of Dark being a good thing, since we know for a fact that humans became sentient after fire was discovered, and that being hollow is their "natural" state - so a new Age of Dark is unlikely to be beneficial to humans, and there's no reason to believe that once Dark reigns there will be a possibility to reignite the flame and start the cycle all over again.

 

[The_Mask]

That's debatable. The room where you fight Ornstein and Smough has two separate lifts, one for giants and the other for humans. Also, it bears noticing that all the lifts in the game can be activated and used by regular humans. It only makes sense to design infrastructure with the bigger individuals in mind, since the smaller humans aren't going to be negatively affected by the larger lifts.

In my mind I'm thinking that if you don't care about who's using the elevator, you're making 2 large ones and call it a day.

And the elevator was me being lazy, but a similar statement can be made of Sen's, where it's clearly designed as a filter of who gets to Anor Londo and who doesn't. Implying classism. And many others.

It also bears mentioning that despite his deprived state, Gwyn is still guarding the first flame and hanging on despite being little more than a crazed, rotting corpse.

Gwyn's not human. You're making my point.

Also, I don't buy into the Age of Dark being a good thing

This is correct. And you're entirely right. The Age of Dark could be worse than the Age of Fire. And that's what's great about Dark Souls from a narrative standpoint. You don't really know at the end if you've made the right choice or not.
Personally, I tend to go with the one that doesn't end up with me on fire though. Call me selfish.

 

[gerey]

Implying classism. And many others.

Implying worth.

Also, the human world outside is clearly feudal, with lords and kings, so arguing that the gods are being snobs doesn't carry much weight.

As for Sen's fortress, we know it's one way to get to Anor Londo, not that it is the only way.

The infrastructure is crumbling away because there is nobody sane enough to maintain it.

 

[Akratus II]

Last playthrough I did of Dark Souls 2 years ago, I got stuck on Elana, the Squallid Queen. I started another playthrough and took a decently sized break but just hopped back on and did like 20 tries again. At a certain point I thought fuck it, she gets to summon another boss? I get to summon an npc. So I just beat her with Steelheart Ellie. It kind of feels like cheating. I don't feel very accomplished...

 

[Wunderbar]

I don't remember Elana being particularly hard, even if you don't drain poison from her arena. Don't feel bad about summoning, there will be plenty of opportunities to git gud and prove your worth.

And good luck with the next location, it's x100 times harder than Elana.

 

[NJClaw]

Why would anyone complain about the fact that a secret item in a hidden room that was specifically given to Artorias to fight the Abyss actually does something against the magic of the Abyss?

Last playthrough I did of Dark Souls 2 years ago, I got stuck on Elana, the Squallid Queen. I started another playthrough and took a decently sized break but just hopped back on and did like 20 tries again. At a certain point I thought fuck it, she gets to summon another boss? I get to summon an npc. So I just beat her with Steelheart Ellie. It kind of feels like cheating. I don't feel very accomplished...

If you're having problems against Elana, you're probably severely underleveled. Either that or your stats distribution isn't optimized for the weapon you're using.

 

[Akratus II]

I don't remember Elana being particularly hard, even if you don't drain poison from her arena. Don't feel bad about summoning, there will be plenty of opportunities to git gud and prove your worth.

And good luck with the next location, it's x100 times harder than Elana.

That's Mytha, the Baneful Queen. I don't mind you getting it wrong especially with Dark Souls 2's less inspired bosses. I guess I should have been clearer that I'm on the first DLC, Crown of the Sunken King. Elana summons Velstadt, the boss with the bell hammer, potentially multiple times. Feels fair to me to summon an npc that only uses Caestuses and deals 6 damage. Real aggro sponge though. She had Velstadt on her the entire time I was wailing on Elana. I always knew she'd be basically a cake walk without her summons.

 

[Wunderbar]

I don't remember Elana being particularly hard, even if you don't drain poison from her arena. Don't feel bad about summoning, there will be plenty of opportunities to git gud and prove your worth.

And good luck with the next location, it's x100 times harder than Elana.

That's Mytha, the Baneful Queen.

damn lol. Completely forgot about her.

Well, then good luck with Sinh. One of the best boss fights in DaS2 and the best dragon fight in the series imo.

 

[Akratus II]

For this little embellishment we're going to imagine Sinh calling me a little bitch after not being able to kill Elana after like I dunno almost a 100 tries.

Me, strolling into Sinh's lair:

Spoiler

Yeah I figured out after a few tries that you can bait him pretty easily into doing his flame breath, which opens up his head for some sideways hits. Damn that feels good. Boss fights, especially when you're using a strength build, are so much better mano y mano.

 

[Silva]

Also, I don't buy into the Age of Dark being a good thing, since we know for a fact that humans became sentient after fire was discovered, and that being hollow is their "natural" state - so a new Age of Dark is unlikely to be beneficial to humans...

Didn't Londor debunk that hoax, by proving a society of conscious hollows is possible?

That's what is great about Souls lore, it's all unreliable narration, so what's right and wrong is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[gerey]

Didn't Londor debunk that hoax, by proving a hollows society is possible?

A society composed of undead, not a society composed of undead that were hollowed.

That's the important distinction.

 

[Silva]

Didn't Londor debunk that hoax, by proving a hollows society is possible?

A society composed of undead, not a society composed of undead that were hollowed.

That's the important distinction.

I think you're wrong. The whole lore around Londor is about a society of hollows, not just undead. They even explain (partially) how they made it through indoctrination and "silence".

 

[gerey]

I think you're wrong. The whole lore around Londor is about a society of hollows, not just undead. They even explain (partially) how they made it through indoctrination and "silence".

I think the lore doesn't make a proper distinction between states of "hollowing". There's people like the male and female Undead Merchants that are "half-hollow", not completely mindless but clearly going loopy, and then there's most of the human opponents you encounter that can be best described as "fully-hollow", and are little more than rabid zombies.

What I meant is that before the discovery of the First Flame both humans and the gods were "fully-hollow", and it was the souls they drew from the fire that gifted them sentience. Remember the intro to DS1 when the narrator says "And from the Dark they came" juxtaposed on top of the scene of the Lords being draw to the First Flame.

That's why I'm rather dubious about the claim that the Age of Dark would be much of a boon to humans - since humans need the souls from the First Flame to retain sentience and avoid devolving into hollows. Maybe after another Age of Dark the cycle would begin again, with a new batch of full-hollows discovering another Flame, but there's no guarantee that another furtive pygmy would be among them, and thus there's every chance the human race wouldn't exist in subsequent cycles.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

I don't remember Elana being particularly hard, even if you don't drain poison from her arena. Don't feel bad about summoning, there will be plenty of opportunities to git gud and prove your worth.

And good luck with the next location, it's x100 times harder than Elana.

That's Mytha, the Baneful Queen. I don't mind you getting it wrong especially with Dark Souls 2's less inspired bosses. I guess I should have been clearer that I'm on the first DLC, Crown of the Sunken King. Elana summons Velstadt, the boss with the bell hammer, potentially multiple times. Feels fair to me to summon an npc that only uses Caestuses and deals 6 damage. Real aggro sponge though. She had Velstadt on her the entire time I was wailing on Elana. I always knew she'd be basically a cake walk without her summons.

Yeah I found Elena to be a poorly designed fight.
They stick you in a small room room against summoned enemies and you don't have terrain to use to your advantage. Without the summons she's a pushover, meaning that in order to make the fight challenging they had to resort to artificial difficulty. It isn't great.

 

[Silva]

I think you're wrong. The whole lore around Londor is about a society of hollows, not just undead. They even explain (partially) how they made it through indoctrination and "silence".

I think the lore doesn't make a proper distinction between states of "hollowing". There's people like the male and female Undead Merchants that are "half-hollow", not completely mindless but clearly going loopy, and then there's most of the human opponents you encounter that can be best described as "fully-hollow", and are little more than rabid zombies.

What I meant is that before the discovery of the First Flame both humans and the gods were "fully-hollow", and it was the souls they drew from the fire that gifted them sentience. Remember the intro to DS1 when the narrator says "And from the Dark they came" juxtaposed on top of the scene of the Lords being draw to the First Flame.

But Londor is called the "Land of Hollows", not the Land of Undead. All it's lore is about how they managed to have a functioning society of conscious hollows, not undead. I see where you're coming from with the stages of hollowing stuff, but the game is clear. You can interpret it as "stages" or as each hollow being more or less prone to canibalism or whatnot, but the game is clear.

About DS1 intro: again, unreliable narration. It's a resume that compresses time and omit a lot of details that we came to know in subsequent games (like the whole Ringed City stuff), so with almost everything else in the game, it's incomplete and prone to different interpretations on purpose.

 

[Black Angel]

That's what is great about Souls lore, it's all unreliable narration, so what's right and wrong is in the eye of the beholder.

I think this mostly applies when we're talking about NPC's dialogue; indeed, it makes them feel very much alive, presenting us with what THEY themselves think of. However, when it comes to what they're saying in the intro cinematic, I think the narration here is pretty much reliable, as a sort of the world's historical, somewhat borderline myth's recount. And when the NPCs simply repeat what we've known from the intro cinematic, we could put a little more trust in them compared to others.

I think you're wrong. The whole lore around Londor is about a society of hollows, not just undead. They even explain (partially) how they made it through indoctrination and "silence".

I think the lore doesn't make a proper distinction between states of "hollowing". There's people like the male and female Undead Merchants that are "half-hollow", not completely mindless but clearly going loopy, and then there's most of the human opponents you encounter that can be best described as "fully-hollow", and are little more than rabid zombies.

What I meant is that before the discovery of the First Flame both humans and the gods were "fully-hollow", and it was the souls they drew from the fire that gifted them sentience. Remember the intro to DS1 when the narrator says "And from the Dark they came" juxtaposed on top of the scene of the Lords being draw to the First Flame.

But Londor is called the "Land of Hollows", not the Land of Undead. All it's lore is about how they managed to have a functioning society of conscious hollows, not undead. I see where you're coming from with the stages of hollowing stuff, but the game is clear. You can interpret it as "stages" or as each hollow being more or less prone to canibalism or whatnot, but the game is clear.

About DS1 intro: again, unreliable narration. It's a resume that compresses time and omit a lot of details that we came to know in subsequent games (like the whole Ringed City stuff), so with almost everything else in the game, it's incomplete and prone to different interpretations on purpose.

Or perhaps Fromsoft shat the bed upon trying to came up with something a little bit more faithful to the original lore and a more organic continuation of the events as it has unfolded in the previous games, so instead they came up with whatever the hell they've came up with.

 

[cruel]

Dark Souls crowned as 'Ultimate game of all time' at Golden Joystick Awards:

https://www.gamesradar.com/dark-sou...me-of-all-time-at-the-golden-joystick-awards/


And... I agree. Nothing else released in the last 20 years was hard, initially unapproachable, not-shit, and at the same time grew a cult following that still lasts.

 

[Ryzer]

Dark Souls crowned as 'Ultimate game of all time' at Golden Joystick Awards:

https://www.gamesradar.com/dark-sou...me-of-all-time-at-the-golden-joystick-awards/


And... I agree. Nothing else released in the last 20 years was hard, initially unapproachable, not-shit, and at the same time grew a cult following that still lasts.

You haven't played many games, don't you?

 

[Silva]

The nominees list:

• Dark Souls (Winner)
• Doom (1993)
• The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
• Half-Life 2
• Minecraft
• Street Fighter II
• Tetris
• The Last of Us
• Super Mario 64
• Metal Gear Solid
• Halo: Combat Evolved
• Super Mario Bros. 3
• Grand Theft Auto V
• Portal
• Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare
• Pac Man
• Super Mario Kart
• Space Invaders
• Sim City (1989)
• Pokémon GO

EDIT:

The Last of Us, Portal and Halo?