From Software The Dark Souls Discussion Thread

[The_Mask]

To be fair, in that kind of a list, Dark Souls wins by default. Not even sure how this was a contest, but... you know... nice. I guess...

 

[Elwro]

Well, you can't take such awards seriously, it's just a vague token of appreciation.

And this broken mess of a game certainly deserves it

 

[Caim]

The nominees list:

• Dark Souls (Winner)
• Doom (1993)
• The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
• Half-Life 2
• Minecraft
• Street Fighter II
• Tetris
• The Last of Us
• Super Mario 64
• Metal Gear Solid
• Halo: Combat Evolved
• Super Mario Bros. 3
• Grand Theft Auto V
• Portal
• Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare
• Pac Man
• Super Mario Kart
• Space Invaders
• Sim City (1989)
• Pokémon GO

There's a few on there that have been very important in shaping the medium, but most certainly not all of them.

 

[Black Angel]

 

[AdamReith]

Just a random note, playing the early Dragon Quest games. Anyone else feel the connection to Dark Souls?

• Open World, difficulty of enemies only thing limiting exploration.

• On death you are encouraged to continue, paying some kind of tax. No feeling of "lost time".

• No direct instructions. Guidance given conversationally by bystanders or via environment.

Basically a core design that encourages exploration and sticking with the result of your decisions.

I found this interesting as I think these were my favorite elements of Dark Souls that kept me playing despite me not being an action game person at all.

 

[felipepepe]

Just a random note, playing the early Dragon Quest games. Anyone else feel the connection to Dark Souls?

I always thought Dark Souls has a really strong connection to Wizardry 1-5, with the whole thing about risk & reward: going as far as you can into the dungeon, returning to town to heal & level up, then having to walk all the way back, killing enemies and using shortcuts.

 

[Silva]

Just a random note, playing the early Dragon Quest games. Anyone else feel the connection to Dark Souls?

I always thought Dark Souls has a really strong connection to Wizardry 1-5, with the whole thing about risk & reward: going as far as you can into the dungeon, returning to town to heal & level up, then having to walk all the way back, killing enemies and using shortcuts.

Yeah, and Persona 5 too.

 

[Blaine]

On death you are encouraged to continue, paying some kind of tax. No feeling of "lost time".

I definitely experience a feeling of lost time when I accidentally backstep off a ledge while reaching for my coffee and then have to slog through an entire map and several dozen of the exact same mobs again.

That being said, I'm quite happy to finally be replaying Dark Souls again this week, having finished DSII in 2017 and DSIII in... 2018? 2019? Somewhere in there.

Despite the slogging, I'm very glad to be back in the land of level design that's actually good and widely separated bonfires that you can't instantly travel between until much later in the game. Way too many bonfires (some virtually within sight of each other) and easy fast travel detracted immensely from DSIII's level design and overall challenge. In DS, you have to stick your neck out across real distances, discover and make use of shortcuts, and actually memorize the game's layout.

 

[Ramnozack]

I’ve been playing Dark Souls recently too, and while I find myself thinking the single player content in this game is probably the best of all three souls games, the pvp is steaming hot shit. Backstabs are completely broken, and that is the main problem, everyone and their mom has to abuse the backstabs to win and ignore everything else. So retarded. Makes me appreciate how much better the pvp is in ds2

 

[mediocrepoet]

I’ve been playing Dark Souls recently too, and while I find myself thinking the single player content in this game is probably the best of all three souls games, the pvp is steaming hot shit. Backstabs are completely broken, and that is the main problem, everyone and their mom has to abuse the backstabs to win and ignore everything else. So retarded. Makes me appreciate how much better the pvp is in ds2

That and I found more issues with hackers and griefers in DS1 than any of the others (and DS3 secondly, including dickheads that put stuff directly into your inventory to try and get your account banned).

They need an anticheat system that lets you reach through the internet and punch a guy in the dick when they try to pull things like that.

 

[Elwro]

I found it surprisingly rewarding to use the Zwei without lock-on in pvp. It's like an anti-backstab technique. ;-)

 

[Silva]

I’ve been playing Dark Souls recently too, and while I find myself thinking the single player content in this game is probably the best of all three souls games, the pvp is steaming hot shit. Backstabs are completely broken, and that is the main problem, everyone and their mom has to abuse the backstabs to win and ignore everything else. So retarded. Makes me appreciate how much better the pvp is in ds2

PvP is shit in all Souls games.

 

[Blaine]

Something else: Sorcery (and all forms of magic, really) was directly nerfed in DSII, then indirectly nerfed in SotFS (high resistances across the board for DLC enemies), then nerfed directly yet again in DSIII.

So, it's very nice to be back playing the one Souls game where magic is allowed to be powerful. Yet sorcery is not an "I Win" button in DS. It's slow, it misses fairly easily, its damage is heavily reduced by shields, and your timing, positioning, and situational awareness must be appropriate. You have to conserve your usage as well. If you focus on sorcery (INT and a smidge of ATN) early in the game, you will be harder-pressed when you do inevitably resort to melee, dealing less damage and receiving proportionally more as well.

Sorcery does make some stretches of most maps, and even some boss fights, substantially easier when you can unleash your nukes properly—but in other situations, you'll be at a disadvantage; although INT-scaling weapons ease this paradigm considerably.

A perfect example would be the two black knights that appear in Undead Asylum when you revisit. If you start casting Heavy Soul Arrow and backing away the moment you get close enough for them to begin charging you (locking on when they get close enough), they will still skewer you as the animation completes, and if your timing was imperfect, they'll interrupt you entirely. You have to lure them out to kite them, and only perfect situations (they've launched into a lengthy combat animation, so you step and roll away and begin casting) will allow you to get your spell off. The basic arrow is faster to use, but still iffy.

A character who has focused on VIT, STA, STR and/or DEX (depending on chosen weapon) will generally deal far more damage with parries/ripostes and/or backstabs. Of course, it's entirely possible to kill them with a starting weapon naked, but that's not the point.

Pyromancer probably has the easiest time early game, since a stout one-handed weapon and shield, fire damage, and fire and poison resistance are all specifically helpful. Of course, any character can be a pyromancer after Laurentius is encountered—which is quite a ways into the game, thus balancing out Pyromancer's early ease of play.

 

[Caim]

It's like the three stages of a Dark Souls playthrough:

1: Melee build. Some go sword and board, others use a big-ass weapon.
2: Magic build. After becoming familiar with the game you pick up spells instead, getting even more familiar with the world and the enemies.
3: Parry/backstab munchkin. You gut gud, now you style on your enemies with either the biggest weapons to one-shot after a parry or a small weapon that deals ludicrous backstab damage. The era of meme builds.

 

[Blaine]

The great thing is that they're all viable.

There is a group of people who seem to believe that you can just nuke everything if you go full-blown INT. Yet you can't even hit poison hounds with a simple Soul Arrow, at least not without respectable Poise and eating a hit.

DSII did add casting speed as a derived stat, though, so even though the damage is nerfed, arguably the ability to cast quickly makes up for that. It's in DSIII that it becomes nearly pointless to focus on magic.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Different Bell Chimes / Staves also had different casting speeds. Dragon Chime had the fasting casting speed of all chimes, iirc.
I think DS3 also has variable casting speeds, but I'm not sure. I know that talismans cast faster than chimes though.

 

[Silverfish]

It's like the three stages of a Dark Souls playthrough:

1: Melee build. Some go sword and board, others use a big-ass weapon.
2: Magic build. After becoming familiar with the game you pick up spells instead, getting even more familiar with the world and the enemies.
3: Parry/backstab munchkin. You gut gud, now you style on your enemies with either the biggest weapons to one-shot after a parry or a small weapon that deals ludicrous backstab damage. The era of meme builds.

The best is when you get over step 3 and become so confident you start rolling subpar characters again and don't even notice the drop-off in efficacy.

 

[Ramnozack]

The great thing is that they're all viable.

There is a group of people who seem to believe that you can just nuke everything if you go full-blown INT. Yet you can't even hit poison hounds with a simple Soul Arrow, at least not without respectable Poise and eating a hit.

DSII did add casting speed as a derived stat, though, so even though the damage is nerfed, arguably the ability to cast quickly makes up for that. It's in DSIII that it becomes nearly pointless to focus on magic.

In DS1 casting speed can be increased by having high dex, though it only starts affecting your cast speed at 35 and stops at 45, so a pretty heavy investment.

Magic is DS3 is pretty powerful, sorcery I know for sure is. Hidden Body, Spook, and Rapport (rapport is a pyromancy but requires only int to use) trivialize many hard encounters. You can essentially go through the entire level backstabbing the shit out of everything with no danger to yourself. Sorcery does good damage if you have crown of dusk and the two damage rings equipped, holding the scholars candlestick also boosts it another 10%. White dragon breath is a good spell, does about as much damage as a normal soul spear, has a relatively low fp cost, has a good aoe on it, passes through enemies, and travels up and down terrain. In my opinion, sorcery definitely is an easier way to play DS3. You can still be good at melee as well, a crystal infused weapon or a raw + magic weapon buff weapon does roughly the same or even more damage than melee builds.

 

[Silva]

When you guys say sorcery, do you mean actual sorcery, aka soul-based spells? Or any long range spells? Because I've played a pyromancer in both DS1 and DS3 and frankly, it almost trivializes both games equally.

BB is the only Souls game Ive played where sorcery arcane is not easy mode.

 

[Caim]

When you guys say sorcery, do you mean actual sorcery, aka soul-based spells? Or any long range spells? Because I've played a pyromancer in both DS1 and DS3 and frankly, it almost trivializes both games equally.

BB is the only Souls game Ive played where sorcery arcane is not easy mode.

Regular sorcery, yes. Pyromancy can be very powerful in Dark Souls 1, but you are very limited by the number of casts you have. Offensive miracles are even worse off: you only get a handfull of casts per spell. Sorcery is much more generous in that regard: attuning only a few spells will get you dozens of casts. Same goes for hexes in Dark Souls 2: with the hex run I did my workhorse Dark Orb had 60 casts without including the modifiers for a high Attunement, with only three spells equipped. Paired with how laughably easy it is to obtain the most powerful hex staff in the game (just talk to one of the hex merchants with 20 Int/Faith, and the guy can be reached really early on), hexes are extremely powerful outside of DS2's DLC.

 

[The_Mask]

Offensive miracles are even worse off: you only get a handfull of casts per spell.

5 TWOPs is all you need.

 

[Blaine]

In DS1 casting speed can be increased by having high dex, though it only starts affecting your cast speed at 35 and stops at 45, so a pretty heavy investment.

According to the Wikidot DS wiki, the benefit begins (key word "begins") at 27 DEX for slow sorceries and 43 DEX for the fastest. That makes relying on DEX for faster casting speed solidly a NG+ or later investment if your initial playthrough relies on sorceries (slots and power being fairly important), or at the very least, an exceptionally late-game investment.

In any case, Pyromancer and the Master Key are clearly the superior starting choices in most cases—something I probably once knew, but had forgotten. I chose a Sorcerer, which means that I in essence permanently lost out on 4 END that a Pyromancer start would have had at a given SL. That's not a big deal, as I doubt a difference of 4 END would ever yield an extra hit or tick before death except in the most extreme outlier situations.

It's amazing how much I'm remembering now, considering how long it's been since I've played. I remembered shooting the fire drake's tail and the related fire breath farming method (and optional animation lock to make it faster), I remembered the hidden bonfire at Darkroot Garden and the poise ring, I remembered to plunge attack the Taurus Demon and killed it the first time with two plunging attacks and some sorceries, I remembered the hidden cleric loot at the Firelink elevator to Undead Parish....

And I remember figuring out how to farm all those human shade guys, I think also in Darkroot, by standing on a ledge and letting them run off a cliff. I figured that out on my own back in the day, no spoilers required, and I look forward to farming them liberally.

I also remember the game seeming way harder back then. Of course, I've played it (and its sequels) before, but for a very long time, I mostly played adventure games, strategy games, and cRPGs, considering the great majority of shooters and action games to be shallow and annoying. Of course I played games like Duke Nukem 3D, Quake, Doom/II, console games, and 1980s and 1990s computer platformers, but not extensively and I never got very good at them. Metroidvanias were probably the sole exception there. Around 2010 or so, I branched out—mainly because so few good games from the aforementioned genres were being released anymore. Therefore, I played Dark Souls near the beginning of my "seriously playing action games" career.

Encountering Ornstein and Smough marks the first and only time I've destroyed a controller. I did it very deliberately: I stood up calmly, grasped the controller cord a few feet away from the controller, and then swung and smashed it into the floor repeatedly like a plastic morningstar until it was in pieces. I'll always remember that.

Magic is DS3 is pretty powerful, sorcery I know for sure is.

That may be. I played through the entirety of DS3 co-op with a Steam pal, and found it to be by far the worst entry in the series. The worst thing about it, in my view, is the absurd abundance of bonfires and fast travel from the beginning of the game, which in my view vastly detracts from the level design and danger (and excitement) of venturing forth far from safety and potentially getting lost.

 

[Silva]

I was never a fan of sorcery and mages. The idea of a dude throwing blue rays from his fingers sound silly to me. Pyro and miracles sound a bit better because of their lore in DS1, which I find cool.

BB was the first one where I found the concept interesting, because there it's more of a scholar or technologist, someone expert at using obscure tools, be it technological or eldritch, than an actual mage. I like this.

That may be. I played through the entirety of DS3 co-op with a Steam pal, and found it to be by far the worst entry in the series. The worst thing about it, in my view, is the absurd abundance of bonfires and fast travel from the beginning of the game, which in my view vastly detracts from the level design and danger (and excitement) of venturing forth far from safety and potentially getting lost.

True. It's sad that this bonfire aspect of the series has been nerfed more and more with each instance. Specially as this was one of the most exciting things in DS1, it's like they did the concept of checkpoints being good for rhe first time ever.... just to drop it later.

 

[Blaine]

"Environmental challenge," as I like to call it, is very important to me. The basic gist of good environmental challenge is an environment that is multi-layered and complexly interconnected, typically featuring discoverable shortcuts, one-way exits, multiple pathways to the same destination, hidden passages, and such like—an environment that allows the player to become lost, that obfuscates the routes to important locations and nexuses, and that requires the player to memorize the environment to some degree, breadcrumb back to safety, and so on.

This has happened to me already in DS. I couldn't for the life of me remember the way back to Andre, thinking that that particular pathway led to the onion knight sitting in front of the sealed fortress gates. This pleases me greatly.

In my ideal gameplay environment, the GPS gets thrown into the trash.

 

[Old Hans]

The worst thing about it, in my view, is the absurd abundance of bonfires and fast travel from the beginning of the game

they really should have just stuck to the demon souls formula.