The Codex of Roguelikes

[Fenix]

You have very straightforward understanding of definition of term "roguelike" which you understand as literally "like Rogue".
Sorry, but this is bulshit.
Transcendence is roguelike - like it or not.
Just as ToME4.
And many other games, that you can't put in Procrustean bed of your definition.

 

[DakaSha V]

Transcendence is a roguelike, stop being gay and retarded

 

[Ranarama]

Because the roguelike genre is, by definition, games similar to rogue.

This is a complite bulshit and nonsense.

Please...

The genre came after. Way after rogue. There had to be a group of games worth calling a genre first. Larn, Moria, Nethack, the bands, Adom, etc. etc.

Now, I agree that to a moron you look at the word 'roguelike' and go as you have "Hurr Rogue Like, Like Rogue, Hurr I Geddit"

But get this, it's only named after Rogue because it became first.

Also, definitions of things like genres deal with family resemblances. Not just resemblance to some Ur-example. And frankly I don't think Rogue is particularly in the centre of that particular grouping.

You'd have the same game be called a Roguelike because it has ASCII and then not when a tileset is turned on? Or are roguelikes games once published by Epyx? Point is, with a single game defining the genre, you soon find out that you've actually defined sweet fuck all.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

Also, it's just terrible. ... Because it's not a definition, just a list of things that have been in various games people already think are roguelikes.

In my eyes, that is exactly what any definition is. You start with a term that has a definite extension, like "cow" or "water" pre-genetics or molecular chemistry (respectively). Then you determine what properties all of the members of the extension have in common—like 'has such-and-such sort of genetic code' or 'has such-and-such hydrogen/oxygen bonds'. The predicates that represent those properties constitute your definition.
Sorry if this is too much of a nitpick, but your criticism looks silly to me, unless you have some other notion of definition/how to arrive at a definition in mind.
A better criticism might be that the extension of 'roguelike', when used by normal (non-monocled) people, covers cases that were not considered by the Berlin folks. Or that there are properties of the members of the extension set that the Berlin folks missed.

I think the refutation to the idea that a definition is just a list of things is in your third sentence: "determine what properties all members have in common". But even that isn't sufficient if you leave it as just the list of factors without further refining and evaluating relative importance of common characteristics. All cows have blood, but you wouldn't use a definition of cow that prominently features " an animal with blood"

Have you read the Berlin interpretation? This is how it would "define" cow:

Cow:
High value factors:
Has fur
makes milk
four legs
four

Low value factors:
Horns
Brown spopts
brown spots

 

[Damned Registrations]

Warframe is a roguelike guys, stop being gay.

 

[Fenix]

Warframe is a roguelike

Yeah, Wrframe and Transcendence is the same...

 

[Damned Registrations]

More similar than it is to nethack.

 

[Serus]

Damned Registrations is fighting the good fight, who would have thought.

 

[getter77]

Look, a Good and Useful Happening: Alpha v9.6 of Dungeons of Everchange http://www.darkgnosis.com/forum/general-board/announcements/alpha-96-released

Alpha9.6 brings brings a lot of changes and bug fixes. One of the most noticeable features is that there is sound support in the game. A lot of sounds have been added, some of them are repeating, some are still not there yet. These are just first steps to bring even more immersive ASCII experience. All these changes are added in HD version of game as well.

• NEW: Sound support, a lot of sounds have been added
  
• NEW: Added 32x32 font
  
• NEW: Wounded, bleeding enemies will flash red for a moment
  
• NEW: Monster transitions between tiles are now time based. Slower machines have better gameplay dynamics
  
• NEW: Flying monsters are represented same as levitating monsters. They move up and down.
  
• NEW: 3 new levels of 'Move away' ranged trigger
  
• NEW: Morgue file is expanded with learned player powers and info on how many times player have used it
  
• NEW: Morgue file is expanded with learned player triggers and info on how many times they got activated
  
• NEW: Morgue files is expanded with eradicated creatures number and their types.
  
• MOD: Sacral Weapon can be cast on ranged weapon
  
• MOD: Monsters glyphs will better blend will darkness, being hard to recognize in shadows
  
• MOD: Levitating is represented better
  
• MOD: Hallucinations will slightly modify the foliage also
  
• MOD: For selected sacral side path, player's starting equipment have 2 potion of healing (down from 5)
  
• MOD: Sacral weapon has got new levels.
  
• MOD: Sacral weapon have reduced max damage by -50%
  
• MOD: Most of the stronger arrow powers got their recharge time increased
  
• MOD: Modified chances for critical hit and critical miss to occur more often
  
• MOD: Finetuned most of ranged abilities
  
• MOD: First level will never spawn secret rooms
  
• MOD: Increased green slime chances to split
  
• MOD: Increased green slime chances to swallow items
  
• MOD: Redesigned Chariot & Lover birthsign
  
• FIX: Ranged weapons were not able to trigger critical misses
  
• FIX: If detect monster scroll was read, then player encounters detected monster previously not seen, if monster goes away, telepatic bond will break
  
• FIX: Changed logging level of published builds
  
• FIX: On entering cyclic dungeon player was sometimes moved into wall.
  
• FIX: Dead monsters wrongly spawns zzz, as it was asleep
  
• FIX: If enemy died near stairs up/stairs down, there was a possibility that carried items will be dropped on stairs. They cannot be picked from that place.
  
• FIX: Scroll of light works again as intended
  
• FIX: Confused monsters that are out of sight don't popup confused text anymore
  
• FIX: Dragon could be distinguished form others with scroll of detect monsters (by size)
  
• FIX: Encountered bloat, killed it at range. One rat died I have never encountered, on a tile I've never seen. Dead body of rat popped on screen
  
• FIX: Upon wearing ring of perception, surrounding is created on next turn, but it should be shown immediately
  
• FIX: Ring of regeneration wasn't applying regeneration strength
  
• FIX: Effect of removing rings did not worked always
  
• FIX: If player equipped ring of hunger or ring of slow metabolism, all creatures were affected with it.
  
• FIX: Ring of absorption now works as intended
  
• FIX: Sacral Weapon was castable even when no weapon was equipped
  
• FIX: If enemy was selected, displayed possible damage was not always correct
  
• FIX: Ranged Life path had Bow +0, should be +1
  
• FIX: Regression bug, bullets were not visible.
  
• FIX: Regression falling bug. Player/monster died instead of falling.
  
• FIX: Regression bug, map was not revealed with magic mapping.
  
• FIX: Dead monsters were levitating.
  
• FIX: Regression bug, with pathfinding and approach behavior of monsters. They stood confused sometimes.
  
• FIX: Indefinitely sleeping monsters bug.
  
• FIX: Sacral weapon and similar self casting spells could increase score indefinitely, by constant casting.
  
• FIX: Regression fix, after the game is over, now the actual highscore entry is highlighted
  
• FIX: Regression fix, Arcane Armor works as intended
  
• FIX: Sacral weapon will not fail anymore if player is targeting enemy

With luck, another meaty update in about 6 weeks. Fans of Brogue and semi-progeny would do well to keep tabs.

 

[Tito Anic]

Look, a Good and Useful Happening: Alpha v9.6 of Dungeons of Everchange

I like dark vibe of it

 

[Arrowgrab]

I know plenty, I've been the original campaign a few times and the one on steam once as well as played some of the mods. You know nothing about rogue.

And YOU apparently know nothing about Transcendence. (No, beating it once doesn't change that.) Also, you're nitpicking.

The food clock isn't something you can refill by hanging around farming enemies (or better yet, sitting in the sunlight), it's basically been nerfed into nothing in every game since rogue, it's basically barely alive in Crawl for herbivore races and that's about it.

You're moving goalposts here. First you said it's not a roguelike because it has no food clock. Now someone pointed out that it does have one, so you're backpedalling with this ridiculous "but it's too easy to refill, so it doesn't count!" It doesn't matter how easy or hard it is, it's there, you were wrong when you claimed it wasn't, that's all there is to it.

And by the way, "farming enemies" is unlikely to take you past the very early systems. Once you start getting halfway decent gear, you'll need a reactor which doesn't take the ubiquitous fuel rods, and the other types are significantly rarer. And sitting in sunlight has the huge trade-off that you have to dedicate some of your precious few equipment slots to solar panels, or stick with an otherwise crappy armor.

And while we're on topic, do you accept that Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup is a roguelike? Because that too has a race which doesn't need food at all.

The funny thing is that you might (or might not) have a decent argument with "but it's real-time!", but you're completely ignoring it for this bullshit. Which suggests to the reader that you're only really having a kneejerk reaction and aren't really trying to come up with a coherent argument.

 

[Damned Registrations]

You're joking right? The heliotropes are like walking super fuel bags. And I mentioned that it wasn't turn based you retard. And you can just swap the solar equipment on and off when you want to.

This isn't a matter of it not checking one specific box, it's a matter of it missing half a dozen key features and the basic gameplay style. Crawl hasn't got much of a clock these days (though it used to) but on the other hand, it includes a dozen other things ripped straight from rogue, like the fact that you walk around on a turnbased grid and bump into things to melee them, like every fucking roguelike ever.

 

[agentorange]

if it has perma-death and heavy use of randomization/procedural generation it's a rogue-like

 

[DakaSha V]

You're joking right? The heliotropes are like walking super fuel bags. And I mentioned that it wasn't turn based you retard. And you can just swap the solar equipment on and off when you want to.

This isn't a matter of it not checking one specific box, it's a matter of it missing half a dozen key features and the basic gameplay style. Crawl hasn't got much of a clock these days (though it used to) but on the other hand, it includes a dozen other things ripped straight from rogue, like the fact that you walk around on a turnbased grid and bump into things to melee them, like every fucking roguelike ever.

Every rogue-like except transcendence, unexplored, Tome-Net, and others

edit: nice circular reasoning btw

 

[Damned Registrations]

if it has perma-death and heavy use of randomization/procedural generation it's a rogue-like

So Diablo 3, Crusader Kings 2, and Minecraft ? Nice genre bro.

I don't get this weird obssession. Like, do you think classifying games you enjoy as roguelikes makes your e-peen bigger or something? It's hard enough finding decent roguelikes without having the genre get muddled with every other game you can die in that isn't completely the same every playthrough. Obviously I'd recommend games like Transcendence, Binding of Isaac, FTL, etc. to people who enjoy roguelikes and the genres these games belong to.

There are enough interesting games where you bump into things on a turn based grid to kill them that they deserve their own genre.

 

[DakaSha V]

if it has perma-death and heavy use of randomization/procedural generation it's a rogue-like

So Diablo 3, Crusader Kings 2, and Minecraft ? Nice genre bro.

I don't get this weird obssession. Like, do you think classifying games you enjoy as roguelikes makes your e-peen bigger or something? It's hard enough finding decent roguelikes without having the genre get muddled with every other game you can die in that isn't completely the same every playthrough. Obviously I'd recommend games like Transcendence, Binding of Isaac, FTL, etc. to people who enjoy roguelikes and the genres these games belong to.

There are enough interesting games where you bump into things on a turn based grid to kill them that they deserve their own genre.

Oh yeah, binding of isaac is also one

 

[Serus]

if it has perma-death and heavy use of randomization/procedural generation it's a rogue-like

So Diablo 3, Crusader Kings 2, and Minecraft ? Nice genre bro.

I don't get this weird obssession. Like, do you think classifying games you enjoy as roguelikes makes your e-peen bigger or something? It's hard enough finding decent roguelikes without having the genre get muddled with every other game you can die in that isn't completely the same every playthrough. Obviously I'd recommend games like Transcendence, Binding of Isaac, FTL, etc. to people who enjoy roguelikes and the genres these games belong to.

There are enough interesting games where you bump into things on a turn based grid to kill them that they deserve their own genre.

Oh yeah, binding of isaac is also one

As is any Diablo(-clone) obviously.

You're joking right? The heliotropes are like walking super fuel bags. And I mentioned that it wasn't turn based you retard. And you can just swap the solar equipment on and off when you want to.

This isn't a matter of it not checking one specific box, it's a matter of it missing half a dozen key features and the basic gameplay style. Crawl hasn't got much of a clock these days (though it used to) but on the other hand, it includes a dozen other things ripped straight from rogue, like the fact that you walk around on a turnbased grid and bump into things to melee them, like every fucking roguelike ever.

Every rogue-like except transcendence, unexplored, Tome-Net, and others

edit: nice circular reasoning btw

Yes, you do engage in circular reasoning. Good that you're self aware. The only way out of this circle is to have an actual definition, otherwise it's all about "your feelings" vs "my feelings" which is completely pointless. And You haven't provided one yourself. Damned Registration at least is making efforts to tell how it should be but I'm yet to see you doing the same. Please enlighten us what definition would you use that will allow game like Transcendence or Binding of Isaac in the genre but at the same time will keep outside thousands of titles that even You would not consider part of the genre and won't make it so bloated to the point of becoming useless for any practical purposes.

 

[DakaSha V]

if it has perma-death and heavy use of randomization/procedural generation it's a rogue-like

So Diablo 3, Crusader Kings 2, and Minecraft ? Nice genre bro.

I don't get this weird obssession. Like, do you think classifying games you enjoy as roguelikes makes your e-peen bigger or something? It's hard enough finding decent roguelikes without having the genre get muddled with every other game you can die in that isn't completely the same every playthrough. Obviously I'd recommend games like Transcendence, Binding of Isaac, FTL, etc. to people who enjoy roguelikes and the genres these games belong to.

There are enough interesting games where you bump into things on a turn based grid to kill them that they deserve their own genre.

Oh yeah, binding of isaac is also one

As is any Diablo(-clone) obviously.

You're joking right? The heliotropes are like walking super fuel bags. And I mentioned that it wasn't turn based you retard. And you can just swap the solar equipment on and off when you want to.

This isn't a matter of it not checking one specific box, it's a matter of it missing half a dozen key features and the basic gameplay style. Crawl hasn't got much of a clock these days (though it used to) but on the other hand, it includes a dozen other things ripped straight from rogue, like the fact that you walk around on a turnbased grid and bump into things to melee them, like every fucking roguelike ever.

Every rogue-like except transcendence, unexplored, Tome-Net, and others

edit: nice circular reasoning btw

Yes, you do engage in circular reasoning. Good that you're self aware. The only way out of this circle is to have an actual definition, otherwise it's all about "your feelings" vs "my feelings" which is completely pointless. And You haven't provided one yourself. Damned Registration at least is making efforts to tell how it should be but I'm yet to see you doing the same. Please enlighten us what definition would you use that will allow game like Transcendence or Binding of Isaac in the genre but at the same time will keep outside thousands of titles that even You would not consider part of the genre.

First we should define circular reasoning.

 

[Serus]

if it has perma-death and heavy use of randomization/procedural generation it's a rogue-like

So Diablo 3, Crusader Kings 2, and Minecraft ? Nice genre bro.

I don't get this weird obssession. Like, do you think classifying games you enjoy as roguelikes makes your e-peen bigger or something? It's hard enough finding decent roguelikes without having the genre get muddled with every other game you can die in that isn't completely the same every playthrough. Obviously I'd recommend games like Transcendence, Binding of Isaac, FTL, etc. to people who enjoy roguelikes and the genres these games belong to.

There are enough interesting games where you bump into things on a turn based grid to kill them that they deserve their own genre.

Oh yeah, binding of isaac is also one

As is any Diablo(-clone) obviously.

You're joking right? The heliotropes are like walking super fuel bags. And I mentioned that it wasn't turn based you retard. And you can just swap the solar equipment on and off when you want to.

This isn't a matter of it not checking one specific box, it's a matter of it missing half a dozen key features and the basic gameplay style. Crawl hasn't got much of a clock these days (though it used to) but on the other hand, it includes a dozen other things ripped straight from rogue, like the fact that you walk around on a turnbased grid and bump into things to melee them, like every fucking roguelike ever.

Every rogue-like except transcendence, unexplored, Tome-Net, and others

edit: nice circular reasoning btw

Yes, you do engage in circular reasoning. Good that you're self aware. The only way out of this circle is to have an actual definition, otherwise it's all about "your feelings" vs "my feelings" which is completely pointless. And You haven't provided one yourself. Damned Registration at least is making efforts to tell how it should be but I'm yet to see you doing the same. Please enlighten us what definition would you use that will allow game like Transcendence or Binding of Isaac in the genre but at the same time will keep outside thousands of titles that even You would not consider part of the genre.

First we should define circular reasoning.

First we should determine that unlike Damned Registration, you're not here for any discussion, just to shitpost. That's fair enough, believe me, of all people I understand this need very well. Good shitposting then.

 

[Serus]

A propos shitposting, can't stop myself:

I know plenty, I've been the original campaign a few times and the one on steam once as well as played some of the mods. You know nothing about rogue.

And YOU apparently know nothing about Transcendence. (No, beating it once doesn't change that.) Also, you're nitpicking.

 

[DakaSha V]

if it has perma-death and heavy use of randomization/procedural generation it's a rogue-like

So Diablo 3, Crusader Kings 2, and Minecraft ? Nice genre bro.

I don't get this weird obssession. Like, do you think classifying games you enjoy as roguelikes makes your e-peen bigger or something? It's hard enough finding decent roguelikes without having the genre get muddled with every other game you can die in that isn't completely the same every playthrough. Obviously I'd recommend games like Transcendence, Binding of Isaac, FTL, etc. to people who enjoy roguelikes and the genres these games belong to.

There are enough interesting games where you bump into things on a turn based grid to kill them that they deserve their own genre.

Oh yeah, binding of isaac is also one

As is any Diablo(-clone) obviously.

You're joking right? The heliotropes are like walking super fuel bags. And I mentioned that it wasn't turn based you retard. And you can just swap the solar equipment on and off when you want to.

This isn't a matter of it not checking one specific box, it's a matter of it missing half a dozen key features and the basic gameplay style. Crawl hasn't got much of a clock these days (though it used to) but on the other hand, it includes a dozen other things ripped straight from rogue, like the fact that you walk around on a turnbased grid and bump into things to melee them, like every fucking roguelike ever.

Every rogue-like except transcendence, unexplored, Tome-Net, and others

edit: nice circular reasoning btw

Yes, you do engage in circular reasoning. Good that you're self aware. The only way out of this circle is to have an actual definition, otherwise it's all about "your feelings" vs "my feelings" which is completely pointless. And You haven't provided one yourself. Damned Registration at least is making efforts to tell how it should be but I'm yet to see you doing the same. Please enlighten us what definition would you use that will allow game like Transcendence or Binding of Isaac in the genre but at the same time will keep outside thousands of titles that even You would not consider part of the genre.

First we should define circular reasoning.

First we should determine that unlike Damned Registration, you're not here for any discussion, just to shitpost. That's fair enough, believe me, of all people I understand this need very well. Good shitposting then.

Would brofist.

But I do stand by/mean what ive been saying. ( *Maybe* with the exception of BoI, which made for a good shitpost / butthurt opportunity )

 

[DakaSha V]

!

Ok here is my game: You control a single '@' symbol on a 10x10 grid that is randomly populated with lots of 's'. Inspecting these 's' gives you the description "shitmound" . The object of the game is to step in the shit. When all of the shit has been stepped into you win. This is arguably a roguelike. In any case it is more of a roguelike than transcendence.

But to please damned registrations, after you step in all the shit a magical shitmonster (if thats not generic enough, replace with "orc") comes out which you beat by moving into 500 times. When hes dead you win. If you accidentally dont move into him once he wins and you need to restart (your save game is deleted). Enjoy the new member to your very well defined (sub)genre

 

[Serus]

!

Ok here is my game: You control a single '@' symbol on a 10x10 grid that is randomly populated with lots of 's'. Inspecting these 's' gives you the description "shitmound" . The object of the game is to step in the shit. When all of the shit has been stepped into you win. This is arguably a roguelike. In any case it is more of a roguelike than transcendence.

But to please damned registrations, after you step in all the shit a magical shitmonster (if thats not generic enough, replace with "orc") comes out which you beat by moving into 500 times. When hes dead you win. If you accidentally dont move into him once he wins and you need to restart (your save game is deleted). Enjoy the new member to your very well defined (sub)genre

What is your point ? That badly designed, boring roguelikes are possible? I can tell you more, you'll be happy to hear: they exist in reality, very many of them. As are bad games of any genre you can think of. How fortunate is that ! But what does suppose to prove, remains a mystery.

Edit: In addition the "example" you created lacks some features I believe Damned Registration would probably consider crucial for a roguelike. There is no exploration, nor there is any sort of resource management at all there. Not that it matters, the point you tried to make (or rather lack of one) is still the same. Shitty, lazy games can exist in any genre.

Sorry, forgot, you're shitposting so there is no point to this at all. Please continue.

 

[DakaSha V]

!

Ok here is my game: You control a single '@' symbol on a 10x10 grid that is randomly populated with lots of 's'. Inspecting these 's' gives you the description "shitmound" . The object of the game is to step in the shit. When all of the shit has been stepped into you win. This is arguably a roguelike. In any case it is more of a roguelike than transcendence.

But to please damned registrations, after you step in all the shit a magical shitmonster (if thats not generic enough, replace with "orc") comes out which you beat by moving into 500 times. When hes dead you win. If you accidentally dont move into him once he wins and you need to restart (your save game is deleted). Enjoy the new member to your very well defined (sub)genre

What is your point ? That badly designed, boring roguelikes are possible? I can tell you more, you'll be happy to hear: they exist in reality, very many of them. As are bad games of any genre you can think of. How fortunate is that ! But what does suppose to prove, remains a mystery.

Sorry, forgot, you're shitposting so there is no point to this at all. Please continue.

My point mostly ends at the first paragraph. When using something like this chart (or any definition), I can easily come up with a game that would be considered more of a rogue-like than transcendence, despite my game invoking zero rogue-like feeling (regardless of how boring it is, or isnt). If something feels like a roguelike, then its a roguelike. If realtime gameplay, for whatever reason, just flips a switch in your head that makes you froth at the mouth when somebody calls it a roguelike, then you do you. It doesnt bother me enough to give a shit about coming up with new definitions that wont aid me in my search for games I like. For the record if diablo had come out today then it would have been labeled a roguelike, or roguelite most likely. Its a stupid counter example.

Second paragraph is to point out how retarded the last step is in the graph. Something I think most anybody here can agree on.

edit: I should add that you could obviously "define" a genre fairly precisely, but any attempt to do so will do nothing but promote sameness between titles. Frothing about (a few) notable differences (such as real time gameplay) is just purist garbage.

 

[DakaSha V]

I think unexplored is a much better example than transcendence, btw. It clearly wouldnt satisfy DR's definition, but I think almost anybody would agree that it feels like a traditional roguelike. In pretty much every single way. It feels more like a traditional roguelike to me, than a lot of games that are universally considered to be roguelikes. But now i have to call it a "roguelite" or "adventure rpg with procedural generation"

Nah, its a roguelike, my niggas. Deal with it