The Codex of Roguelikes

[buffalo bill]

Hi guys, I have heard about game called Reactor 3...
Know anything about it?

Actually never heard about that one.

From the Github page:

I stopped working on this in 2014, but a successor is being privately developed using a new framework written in C. I will post on Reddit's roguelike or roguelikedev subforums eventually.

More infos:
https://github.com/flags/Reactor-3

I like the description on the website:

What is Reactor 3?
Reactor 3 is best described as a mix S.T.A.L.K.E.R. and Fallout with the addition of procedurally generated elements. There is a heavy emphasis on NPC interaction, squad tactics, and survival, with each action you make shaping the Zone, an unstable area surrounding the Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant. The Zone itself is a living entity, causing erratic weather events and transforming the local wildlife into hostile mutants.

R3 is brutally difficult and unforgiving, punishing those who choose a run-'n-gun playstyle over non-combat solutions. Combat is heavily grounded in reality, modeling minor injuries like scrapes and cuts to full dismemberment. The player's inventory is also treated as it should; each item must be either held, worn, or stored away in a container (backpack, pocket, etc,) which encourages the player to not only pick and choose between what they carry, but also how they carry it (a pistol would be stored in a holster for quicker access, for example.)

Join a faction and take over the Zone, or simply exist on your own.

Has anyone played it? Would be pretty cool if it actually has robust NPC interactions and good squad tactics w/ proper roguelike mechanics.

 

[Fenix]

I'm going to play it eventually, when - don't know.

 

[Major Seven]

!

 

[LJ40]

Top down/isometric viewpoint is just a kind of 3rd person perspective.

Edit - In fact it's literally impossible for a game to be a Roguelike according to that chart.

 

[Fenix]

Well, Transcendence feels like roguelike, despite being real-time..

 

[Damned Registrations]

I mean, so does Diablo, if you're going to compare it to other things that are even further from roguelikes. Comparing Transcendence (which I fucking love, btw, everyone should play it, it's free) to Rogue is like saying Morrowind is a Mariolike because it has some platforming elements and mushrooms.

 

[moraes]

If I design a procedural generated first-person, turn-based, single-character grid-based dungeon crawler with permadeath and battles that happen along the same screen with exploration, I'm designing a roguelike and that graph is bullshit. Even the Berlin interpretation doesn't put limitations on camera perspective.

 

[Ranarama]

Rogue itself doesn't have much proc gen in it.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Err, what? Like basically the whole game is. The whole game is tiny, to be fair, it doesn't have randarts for example. But the dungeon layout, the enemies, and the loot is all generated. What else could it possibly do randomly?

If I design a procedural generated first-person, turn-based, single-character grid-based dungeon crawler with permadeath and battles that happen along the same screen with exploration, I'm designing a roguelike and that graph is bullshit. Even the Berlin interpretation doesn't put limitations on camera perspective.

Sure, but he was pretty clearly talking about randomized FPS games. Also, your game would suck- it would be a nightmare trying to use the terrain tactically against enemies without a top down view or getting murdered because you didn't spin around to look behind you every other step. URW's directional vision was annoying enough, thanks. And it lets you recruit party members to cover your ass.

 

[Fenix]

I don't compare it with Rogue - I said it's a pure roguelike, that I think was ASCII in the beginning.

The only thing - it's realtime, but that distract literally nothing from its roguelike-ness.

 

[Fenix]

recursion

 

[buffalo bill]

Top down/isometric viewpoint is just a kind of 3rd person perspective.

Edit - In fact it's literally impossible for a game to be a Roguelike according to that chart.

If "3rd person perspective" in the flowchart refers to over-the-shoulder perspectives as in contemporary ARPGs (which I think it pretty obviously does), then it is not impossible for a game to be a roguelike according to the chart. I pretty much 100% agree with the flowchart, though moraes makes a good point that maybe 1st person dungeon crawlers could count as roguelikes if they satisfy all other criteria.

 

[LJ40]

Top down/isometric viewpoint is just a kind of 3rd person perspective.

Edit - In fact it's literally impossible for a game to be a Roguelike according to that chart.

If "3rd person perspective" in the flowchart refers to over-the-shoulder perspectives as in contemporary ARPGs (which I think it pretty obviously does), then it is not impossible for a game to be a roguelike according to the chart. I pretty much 100% agree with the flowchart, though moraes makes a good point that maybe 1st person dungeon crawlers could count as roguelikes if they satisfy all other criteria.

Except that's not the only thing "3rd person perspective" covers. If the chart meant just over the shoulder (and it most certainly did), then it should say that, instead of something which makes the chart objectively incorrect and a blatant target for pedantic shitheads like me.

 

[Damned Registrations]

TIL Starcraft is a third person shooter just like gears of war.

 

[Ranarama]

TIL Starcraft is a third person shooter just like gears of war.

Starcraft is technically a 4X

 

[Fenix]

So you didn't explained why realt-me making Transcendence to be a not roguelike...

 

[Damned Registrations]

Because the roguelike genre is, by definition, games similar to rogue. A real time action game is a huge divergence from that, so is making the permadeath optional (even when it's on 'permadeath' you've got such easy access to clones it's more like a lives system.)

Like, what exactly does it have in common with rogue? It doesn't even have xp or character stats. There's no food clock. It's got some procedural generation and an ID metagame. I could just as easily say it's a Doom clone because it has action based ranged combat and ammo.

It doesn't need to fit neatly in such a specific genre. Call it an action rpg. It's not like thats a genre drowning in quality, throw it a bone ffs.

 

[Fenix]

Because the roguelike genre is, by definition, games similar to rogue.

This is a complite bulshit and nonsense.

It doesn't even have xp or character stats.

Because your ship is your character, don't be a dumbass.
Your armor plates - your equipment. Barrels with materials for armor plates and ROMs with programms for your weapon and shields are scrolls and potions.
Domina is an obvious god you worship who gives you powers in return.
There IS foodclock - your fuel, which spent on everything.

You know absolutely nothing and yet you arguing.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

If I design a procedural generated first-person, turn-based, single-character grid-based dungeon crawler with permadeath and battles that happen along the same screen with exploration, I'm designing a roguelike and that graph is bullshit. Even the Berlin interpretation doesn't put limitations on camera perspective.

The Berlin interpretation is both useless and also kind of a fraud. It was produced at the "2008 International Roguelike Developers Conference" by a handful of people who hung out at Roguebasin. I have never seen any info on attendance, but judging by what I have found I would guess around ten people. I would be shocked if it was more than 20. In the preparation, the largest vote (over location) involved a total of 15 voters.

Also, it's just terrible. It's too restrictive and too permissive at the same time. Why? Because it's not a definition, just a list of things that have been in various games people already think are roguelikes.

 

[buffalo bill]

Also, it's just terrible. ... Because it's not a definition, just a list of things that have been in various games people already think are roguelikes.

In my eyes, that is exactly what any definition is. You start with a term that has a definite extension, like "cow" or "water" pre-genetics or molecular chemistry (respectively). Then you determine what properties all of the members of the extension have in common—like 'has such-and-such sort of genetic code' or 'has such-and-such hydrogen/oxygen bonds'. The predicates that represent those properties constitute your definition.
Sorry if this is too much of a nitpick, but your criticism looks silly to me, unless you have some other notion of definition/how to arrive at a definition in mind.
A better criticism might be that the extension of 'roguelike', when used by normal (non-monocled) people, covers cases that were not considered by the Berlin folks. Or that there are properties of the members of the extension set that the Berlin folks missed.

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Guys stop. Lets just make a new thread discussing what is an rpg roguelike

 

[Damned Registrations]

Because the roguelike genre is, by definition, games similar to rogue.

This is a complite bulshit and nonsense.

It doesn't even have xp or character stats.

Because your ship is your character, don't be a dumbass.
Your armor plates - your equipment. Barrels with materials for armor plates and PROMs with programms for your weapon and shields are scrolls and potions.
Domina is an obvious god you worship who gives you powers in return.
The IS foodclock - your fuel, which spent on everything.

You know absolutely nothing and yet you arguing.

I know plenty, I've been the original campaign a few times and the one on steam once as well as played some of the mods. You know nothing about rogue. The food clock isn't something you can refill by hanging around farming enemies (or better yet, sitting in the sunlight), it's basically been nerfed into nothing in every game since rogue, it's basically barely alive in Crawl for herbivore races and that's about it. Prayer wasn't even IN rogue ffs. However, crawl is so similar in all the other ways that it's still easily a roguelike. You've got xp from monsters, it's still turn based, there's still enforced permadeath, you're still fighting in corridors on a grid and worrying about permanent damage like level drains and stat loss. Gods and shops and races and classes and spells are all extras that weren't in rogue, but actual roguelikes still have plenty in common. Transcendence has less in common with rogue than it does with diablo. If Transcendence is a roguelike so is any other game with equipment and consumables and random maps, which would be a retarded definition.

 

[Fenix]

OK I got it - ToME4 isn't roguelike, has no food clock...

 

[Damned Registrations]

ToME 4 is barely a roguelike yeah. There's no ID game, no consumables, permadeath is optional, no food clock (ADOM, now that I think of it, has corruption as a variant of the food clock that has the same sort of role) and is just generally very distant from it's roots. Is KotC a roguelike? It has random encounters, equipment, consumables. How about all the elder scrolls games? How about Diablo? How about World of Warcraft? How about Warframe?

 

[CryptRat]

Because the roguelike genre is, by definition, games similar to rogue.

This is a complite bulshit and nonsense.

Please...