Baldur's Gate The Baldur's Gate Series Thread

[octavius]

Lilura: That may be, but he's still an annoying gimp. Powergaming isn't everything.

I think Amoen is amusing. He's such a pompous windbag that he's involuntarily amusing.

 

[DraQ]

Good exploration is when observation skills and curiosity are rewarded rather than willingly subjecting yourself to tedium (like mousing over every pixel of entire map).

I don't think many people pixel-hunted each and every map of BG1, trying to find phat lewt. Most things that were lootable were visually represented as such (objects of interest to mouseover, like a pile of bodies, then a polygon highlights it to loot), there were only a few things that could be found by painstakingly going over the ground with a fine-toothed comb (a wand, gems, a suit of armor, a couple of rings).
BG1 does a decent job of encouraging exploration, most of the maps do offer rewards for venturing off the beaten track, many have caves and even whole dungeons to explore beneath. Some are also deadly (cave in Lighthouse map, filled with flesh golems and artifacts), which keeps things interesting.

I begin to wonder if you even played the game, your comment earlier about respawns was inaccurate too.

Gee, how I love you "you don't like the game I do so you probably haven't even played it" people.

Spoiler

Not.

Anyway, to the point:

Those "only few things" you could find by pixel hunting were typically very precious loot at the stage they were found at - ring giving extra lvl1 and lvl2 spell slots at the time none of your casters had anything but lvl1 and lvl2 spells? Ring of protection +1 when, if you rolled mage, your character could be killed by someone sneezing too hard in their general direction? Free ankheg plate, when the best you could possibly have was heavy as sin and inferior in terms of defense plate that cost 900 fucking GP?
Wands being free, often powerful spells in a can?

There was a lot of incentive to find this stuff, and no indication of it being there, hence pixel hunting.

I never had any trouble with pile of corpses showing up as container but I do have some serious beef with incentivizing pointless pixel hunting.

Second, BG doesn't encourage exploration because it doesn't have any. It doesn't have "off the beaten track" places in any sense that would be meaningful to the player.
What it does have is not very large, neatly delimited rectangles of stuff with areas that may still contain some undiscovered stuff helpfully marked by blackness. There is nothing that would stop you from just mechanically combing every place in game and no obtrainable information that would help you direct your efforts.

As for the annoying respawns, it doesn't seem that I've been wrong:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/11447/bug-monster-respawn-issue
And yes, the behaviour of original game is referenced there, not just EE.

Worst trash mobs ever. Clearly, none of the people complaining about respawns in STALKER:SoC (even unpatched) have played BG1.

Exploration is not countryside hiking! Exploration is wondering whether you can enter the city of Khorinis in Gothic 2 without having to convince the gate guards that they should let you in, circling the walls and actually finding a back way in. What makes it even better is that Lares will be surprised when he sees you enter the city that way, and the paladin close to the gate will comment that he didn't see you go in. There is an obscure back way that's not easy to find, and when you find it NPCs actually acknowledge it - that's exploration!
Exploration is getting the objective to infiltrate an MJ12 facility in Deus Ex, then looking for alternate ways to get in rather than taking the heavily guarded front gate - be it a ventilation shaft, a sewer access or the rooftops. Exploration is checking out the other accessible buildings in Deus Ex' Paris Streets level rather than just going to the club you have to go to without checking anything else.
Exploration is playing a Thief Fan Mission with an optional objective that requires you to visit a different area away from the main objective and actually going there and doing it. Exploration is trying to get all the loot by checking out every room, by trying to find keys to locked rooms, by looking at seemingly inaccessible places and wanting to find out if you can get there - for example a balcony that isn't accessible by any doors, and then trying to climb up there by using a rope arrow.

That's exploration.

That sounds like achievement-hunting and problem-solving to me. Searching, analyzing, examining.

You do realize that achievements are a relatively new fad and are preceded by all the explicitly mentioned games, right?

Exploration? Exploration is not a search for anything, because you don't know what you're searching for. Exploration is about finding whatever - because you don't know what you'll find. Killing the Fog of War in a strategy game. Running off into the woods in Gothic. Clicking wherever on the world map in Fallout or Arcanum.

You could be exploring as you're looking for a specific solution, yes -- but the exploration is an act in itself.

This is how I use exploration in games. I'm sure the definition of the word is much broader.

This.
JarlFrank What you say sounds interesting, but it's not what i think when i hear the word exploration. Look Zed's post above. My definition is closer to her's. Exploration cannot be searching a spesific solution to a problem. Exploration is searching just because, or because you haven't something better to do

To be meaningful gameplay element, exploration must involve two steps:

First, you have to notice possibility of exploration - for example by asking yourself what's on the walled off floor, seemingly inaccessible balcony, at the bottom of the cliff you're on, or some other location that doesn't seem immediately reachable.

Then you have to figure out the way to get there.


At least one of those steps must involve some effort on part of the player:

1. You don't have to be actively searching for anything in particular, but you do have to keep your eyes open and constantly examine surroundings for potential opportunities. This can be a challenge on its own but it requires backdrop to intermix with content, with stuff of interest being buried in red herrings.

2. Then, only after the opportunity is identified, you focus your efforts on the problem of getting there.
The best thing is that until you actually get there, you may not even know if the way there exists or if there is anything to find there.

That's what fuels the thrill of discovery.
It's also what's completely absent from BG.

In BG opportunities are handed to you on a silver platter - they are black areas on the map (unless completely bounded by impassable terrain and therefore guarantedly unreachable) and previously unused interactive map edges updating your world map. Maps in BG are clearly and definitely bounded, so they are "explored" inward - you're effectively exploring a fenced-in plot of land. Bah.
Figuring out how to get there is also non-issue because the method is always the same - it's accomplished by simply walking towards the spot.

As for Arcanum, I don't know if it has any exploration, but it had at least opportunity to provide it, because it's a continuous world that is too large to be just exhaustively searched, and thus any searches for potentially interesting stuff would require player directing search efforts in a manner that is smarter than just wandering about randomly.

Sorry Zed
Too much dialog with Roguey lately left me

Don't worry. Can happen to anyone.

It's Roguey we're talking about.

 

[hiver]

i brofisted that before i even read it.

 

[JarlFrank]

Yeah, all exploration in BG is just combing the map until no unexplored areas are left, and in BG2 or BG1 with Tutu or BGT, pressing ALT (or was it TAB?) to highlight interactable objects. Maybe also using your Thief to detect traps and secret passages, but activating detection for your Thief while walking through a dungeon isn't very explore-y either.

I like going through BG2's (I vastly prefer it to BG1) maps and exploring every corner, but it's not like that exploration takes much effort or the hidden stuff is particularly well hidden. It's more of a "go to every area of the map so it's fully revealed, enjoy finding difficult encounters and unique item rewards for doing so" type of exploration, which isn't bad but it doesn't actually make BG series into exploration-heavy games.

 

[DraQ]

If there were no guides, wikis, nor forums, I'd love to conduct a following experiment:

Gather players of BG1 and plot optional unique or rare loot found by each of them in BG1 against their spatial and associative abilities.
Do the same with Morrowind players and Morrowind.

Calculate and compare regression coefficients.

 

[Lorica]

Lilura: That may be, but he's still an annoying gimp. Powergaming isn't everything.

QFT. You can get through BG2 with just about any party or no party at all. It doesn't matter that Anomen and Aerie are both loads more powerful than Viconia. They're lame and the game doesn't demand that you choose the most powerful party members to roflstomp liches and dragons. And, as has been pointed out, if power is what you seek, just roll your own damn party and enter the munchkin.

Anomen's a twat and is best suited for a party where you want Keldorn and are playing a male PC. Aside from the upgrade, his quest is only marginally more interesting than Mazzy's.

N.B. I'd take Aerie over the other two with female PC (mage). Imoen, Edwin, Nalia and Keldorn. Magic users are the way to go for real game abuse.

 

[Sodafish]

I think we can all reach a consensus that the most useless (and possibly most annoying) character is Haer'Dalis though.

 

[octavius]

As for the annoying respawns, it doesn't seem that I've been wrong:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/11447/bug-monster-respawn-issue
And yes, the behaviour of original game is referenced there, not just EE.

The two named ogre respawning never happened to me even when playing vanilla BG1. There were lots of annoying respawns in vanilla BG1, though, but who's playing vanilla BG1 anymore when you can play TuTu, BGT or even EE?

The other respawning didn't happen when playing the TuTu version. Some Kobold Commandos may have spawned in the central room in Firewine Ruins unless you parked one of your own characters there, but it may have been the vanilla BG1 I remember.

 

[DraQ]

Firewine and Thalantyr's front lawn off the top of my head.

How fucking annoying.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

I think we can all reach a consensus that the most useless (and possibly most annoying) character is Haer'Dalis though.

Not really, annoying maybe (though that's subjective) but Blade is a very powerful Bard kit due to offensive spin, being able to put 3 stars in two weapon style and bards having the same level progression as thieves (useful for many spells whose efficiency scales with level like flame arrow or skull trap for example, under original SOA cap Bards were actually more damaging with some spells than mages/sorcerers at the end game).

On top of that Haer'Dalis also is specialized in long sword and short swords IIRC which is also a plus (and something PC Blade can't do).

 

[ZagorTeNej]

As for the annoying respawns, it doesn't seem that I've been wrong:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/11447/bug-monster-respawn-issue
And yes, the behaviour of original game is referenced there, not just EE.

The two named ogre respawning never happened to me even when playing vanilla BG1. There were lots of annoying respawns in vanilla BG1, though, but who's playing vanilla BG1 anymore when you can play TuTu, BGT or even EE?

The other respawning didn't happen when playing the TuTu version. Some Kobold Commandos may have spawned in the central room in Firewine Ruins unless you parked one of your own characters there, but it may have been the vanilla BG1 I remember.

I do, it is one of the reasons I never tried stratagems mod for BG1, I prefer BG1 graphics/class system/interface to be the way they were when I first played the game, only enhanced with widescreen mod.

 

[Krivol]

Firewine and Thalantyr's front lawn off the top of my head.

How fucking annoying.

From the other side - I like almost empty places in BG (like one on the southeast with ring of Balista or sth on that)/ They removed empty, useless places in DA1 and KotOR and see what happened? All game is empty and useless .

 

[Erebus]

Anomen is fairly powerful : he has clerical magical, but is also a good tank and a decent fighter (thanks to his high strength) until Throne of Bhaal. One of his weak points is that his wisdom is low (Viconia has much more low-level spells than he does), but that changes when and if he's accepted by the order. He's also one of the few companions with poor Dex.

In the end, it's certainly not necessary to power-game as far as your choice of companions is concerned. Winning BG2 can be done even with an unbalanced party. I once played through the game with an all-wizard team : a Sorcerer PC, Edwin, Nalia, Aerie, Jan and Imoen.

Of all the characters in BG2 Anomen has the most interesting quest/storyline, IMO. Goading him over to the Dark Side, and him go all Anakin Skywalker in the house of Saul (?) the merchant who supposedly (it is never proven) killed his sister

The writers of that quest cheated : who killed Anomen's sister depends on what you advise him to do after the event. If you tell him to bring the case before a judge (who then has to dismiss it due to lack of evidence), the merchant really is guilty. But if you tell him to kill the merchant, it turns out she was killed by burglars.

 

[Lilura]

Anomen is fairly powerful : he has clerical magical, but is also a good tank and a decent fighter (thanks to his high strength)

Any cleric can get 25 strength by buffing, 18/52 is not what makes Anomen a decent fighter. He's a better fighter than Viccy because he has seven levels of fighter class which gives him +1/2 attack from 7lvls and +1/2 attack from Specialization. He also gets to-hit and damage bonuses from proficiencies. He has far more HPs.
But attack rate (ApR) and proficiency is what contributes to his fighting ability most.

One of his weak points is that his wisdom is low (Viconia has much more low-level spells than he does),

It isn't really a weak-point, though. The difference between his wisdom and Viccy's is a whopping two level 1 and 2 spellslots and one level 3 and 4 spellslots. They have the same amount of level 5, 6 and 7. And that's with Anomen going Dark Side and not getting +WIS.

He's also one of the few companions with poor Dex.

The difference between his dex and Viccy's is a mere 4 AC and then there's Gauntlets of Dexterity. Plus in ToB you either AC lord (-20+) or don't bother.

In the end, it's certainly not necessary to power-game as far as your choice of companions is concerned. Winning BG2 can be done even with an unbalanced party. I once played through the game with an all-wizard team : a Sorcerer PC, Edwin, Nalia, Aerie, Jan and Imoen.

Which being arcane-heavy is pretty much one of the most insanely powerful parties you can put together.

 

[Erebus]

It isn't really a weak-point, though. The difference between his wisdom and Viccy's is a whopping two level 1 and 2 spellslots and one level 3 and 4 spellslots. They have the same amount of level 5, 6 and 7. And that's with Anomen going Dark Side and not getting +WIS

Still makes a big difference in the early game, though.

In the end, it's certainly not necessary to power-game as far as your choice of companions is concerned. Winning BG2 can be done even with an unbalanced party. I once played through the game with an all-wizard team : a Sorcerer PC, Edwin, Nalia, Aerie, Jan and Imoen.

Which being arcane-heavy is pretty much one of the most insanely powerful parties you can put together.

It was pretty good a lot of the time, but foes with high MR (drows, mind flayers, demons...) could be a real problem. I remember it took me quite a few tries to figure out how to get past the clay golems guarding the second half of Gesen's Bow. I think having at least one strong warrior would have made the party more powerful.

 

[abnaxus]

It was pretty good a lot of the time, but foes with high MR (drows, mind flayers, demons...) could be a real problem. I remember it took me quite a few tries to figure out how to get past the clay golems guarding the second half of Gesen's Bow. I think having at least one strong warrior would have made the party more powerful.

It's technically a bug, but Sunfire completely bypasses MR. It doesn't work against demons, but for these you can just summon crap.

 

[ohWOW]

I still need to finish this game.

 

[Lilura]

Quite a few spells bypass MR and you can always drill it down to 0% with Lower Resistance. Mordswords, skeletal undead and stalkers rape Illithid. You had SIX arcane casters, if you Tenser and haste them that's enough melee power to take out a drow horde or clay golems, which only require blunt and +1 enchantment to hit.

 

[GarfunkeL]

I can't remember if it was in vanilla BG2 or whether some mod added it but it's worth it to keep Viconia, Aeris and Jaheira in your party for all of Chapter 2 if you have a male PC because they start jealously bitching out each other when the romances conflict.

If we're talking about annoying companions, I think Nalia wins the prize. "Oh, woe is on the poor classes!"

 

[Zed]

I kicked Jaheira out of my party, and she's all "Khalid you better come with me if you know what's good for you". I killed her. I talked to Khalid and he gladly re-joined.

I kicked Xzar out of my party, and he's all "Montaron - let's go." Soooooooooooo I killed him. Montaron gladly re-joined when I talked to him.

This was cool cuz I didn't know it was possible to have them re-join solo by killing their partners.
I killed them in Kagain's shop and I'm about to leave Beregost.

Now my question:
Will this come back and bite me in the ass? Will they suddenly go "uuuh I guess Jaheira is dead... bye" or something similar?

I'm not planning on keeping them in my party forever... But I want to know if they'll pull some shit.

 

[Jaesun]

No. Once their companions are dead they won't complain.

 

[Jick Magger]

Better method is to get one of your companions to stay in an area you'll never return to (i.e. one of the circus tents in the carnival whose name escapes me), exit it, and then kick them out of your party. They won't be able to initiate the leaving dialogue with you and so you'll be able to keep your other companion. Got rid of that black witch and kept Minsc that way.

But no, this'll have no long-term negative effects on your party, they'll be none the wiser you murdered their friends.

 

[Zed]

No. Once their companions are dead they won't complain.

Thanks. Also, I did search for a BG thread. Not very thoroughly, but still.

 

[Whisky]

I think we can all reach a consensus that the most useless (and possibly most annoying) character is Haer'Dalis though.

Most annoying? Hell no. Aerie still exists.

Gameplaywise, sure. I mean, he's a pretty good Bard, but he's still a Bard.

 

[Zed]

Gameplay-wise, the worst NPC in the BG series is Quayle in BG1.