Vapourware System Shock 3 by OtherSide Entertainment - taken over by Tencent!

[thesheeep]

So... because something can be digitally transferred, it cannot be transferred from a physical medium?
Did you ever look at an USB stick?

 

[Zombra]

Yeah, but it still felt really silly and artificial. And if SHODAN wanted you to do all this stuff and team up with her, why didn't she just give you a billion modules immediately? You know sweetheart, I could kill this pervasive biological infestation a lot quicker if I were Superman. It was just dumb having NPCs be able to give you xp and say "I am giving you xp now." And why were there vending machines scattered throughout the ship that dispensed intelligence and carrying capacity? Who used these? I didn't see any other cyborg crewmembers. I hated it for a lot of reasons.

 

[Jimmious]

What have you never taken a shit with your USB stick at hand? You never know when you'll need that stuff :p

 

[The Nameless Pun]

Yeah, but it still felt really silly and artificial. And if SHODAN wanted you to do all this stuff and team up with her, why didn't she just give you a billion modules immediately? You know sweetheart, I could kill this pervasive biological infestation a lot quicker if I were Superman. It was just dumb having NPCs be able to give you xp and say "I am giving you xp now." And why were there vending machines scattered throughout the ship that dispensed intelligence and carrying capacity? Who used these? I didn't see any other cyborg crewmembers. I hated it for a lot of reasons.

IMO, she wants to keep you on the edge, giving you the minimum number of cybermodules necessary for you to succeed without you becoming too strong to be independent nor too weak to die. It felt absolutely brilliant to me, although it makes it impossible for you to progress as a character without completing main quest objectives.

 

[kwanzabot]

i loved ss1 and 2 but i give this game an 80% chance of sucking dick

 

[Excidium II]

I give it 100% chance of having shit grafics.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

I give it 369% that the Codex will think it sucks.

 

[thesheeep]

I will give it a chance to do any of that.

 

[Ash]

So... because something can be digitally transferred, it cannot be transferred from a physical medium?
Did you ever look at an USB stick?

Was about say something very similar in response to his sillyness, but you nailed it first. Brofist.

Yeah, but it still felt really silly and artificial. And if SHODAN wanted you to do all this stuff and team up with her, why didn't she just give you a billion modules immediately?

Because gameplay, or it was Shodan's will, if you prefer. She's obviously highly imperfect otherwise she would never get beat by a puny human...twice. Also maybe it was incentive for you to do as she says, one step at a time. The concept of cyber modules was great, only it wasn't explained how they improve both attributes and skills, that's all that was needed imo, just some flimsy explanation of the software enhancement.

How was level design in SS1?

Good, but I wouldn't say great. By the time you get to deck 7 you're kind of sick of simplistic, bland labyrinth design if not before. At least I was. There's lots of literal bland squared tunnels despite the engine and earlier designs (such as medical level) showing it is capable of doing something a little more both interesting and realistic. The bridge, flight deck and the groves are nice deviations from all the bland tunnels though (and are other examples of more complex designs). tunnels/corridors are fine and to be expected on a space station, but there's certainly not a lot of variety to them in terms of geometry and aesthetic, especially decks 3, 4 and 7 which I found most tedious.Anyway, for 1994 this was next level stuff, but it falls into some pitfalls that, say, Doom did not, but doom had a lot of freedom in the setting e.g outdoor environments. Even so its corridors didn't feel as bland somehow, probably because they had some dimension even without the sloped surfaces.

Edit: I'm probably being a bit unfair here. Doom vanilla had pretty bland designs, I've played so many fan-made WADs that trump the vanilla designs that I'd forgetten the blandness of the vanilla levels, but there was still a lot of variety to the level geometry in Doom that Shock didn't have.

 

[Zombra]

Because gameplay

Note I have no problem with the gameplay. What I object to is the weak attempt to justify the system as part of the fiction. In Deus Ex, the President didn't mail you a telegram containing Skill Points whenever you completed an objective; you just got them, no ridiculous rationalization required or asked for. It was better that way.

or it was Shodan's will, if you prefer.

"SHODAN is stupid and crazy, therefore any part of the fiction that appears stupid or crazy is actually great writing, brilliantly disguised as nonsense." OK, we can just go ahead and leave it at that.

 

[Jaesun]

What would have been a more acceptable way of levelling up in SS2 then for you Zombra?

 

[Zombra]

What would have been a more acceptable way of levelling up in SS2 then for you Zombra?

The same mechanics, but without the "Well done, yon valorous traveler! I doth anon grant thee 450 pointes of ye olden exp'rience to spendeth on more skill ranks...eth!"

 

[Jaesun]

What would have been a more acceptable way of levelling up in SS2 then for you Zombra?

The same mechanics, but without the "Well done, yon valorous traveler! I doth anon grant thee 450 pointes of ye olden exp'rience to spendeth on more skill ranks...eth!"

I do kinda get the point you are making.... you would have like say preferred the player found cybernetic modules throughout the game, instead of SHODAN handing them out to you?

 

[Zombra]

What would have been a more acceptable way of levelling up in SS2 then for you Zombra?

The same mechanics, but without the "Well done, yon valorous traveler! I doth anon grant thee 450 pointes of ye olden exp'rience to spendeth on more skill ranks...eth!"

I do kinda get the point you are making.... you would have like say preferred the player found cybernetic modules throughout the game, instead of SHODAN handing them out to you?

Finding them was certainly less bad than having them appear because someone told you "I'm making them appear now" (and of course you did find them lying around sometimes - the equivalent of exploration points from Deus Ex). Upgrading at vending machines also insulted my intelligence, but by itself I could have lived with that conceit. Really, though, it would have been best to completely decouple advancement from the fiction and just gain points directly upon completing objectives, and spend them whenever you wanted. It's OK to get stronger from simple exercise, develop new psi powers spontaneously, and develop skill at hacking cameras and shooting guns in the field, without having to wait for a letter from your mom saying it's OK for you to learn things.

 

[Jaesun]

Finding them was certainly less bad than having them appear because someone told you "I'm making them appear now" (and of course you did find them lying around sometimes - the equivalent of exploration points from Deus Ex). Upgrading at vending machines also insulted my intelligence, but by itself I could have lived with that conceit. Really, though, it would have been best to completely decouple advancement from the fiction and just gain points directly upon completing objectives, and spend them whenever you wanted. It's OK to get stronger from simple exercise, develop new psi powers spontaneously, and develop skill at hacking cameras and shooting guns in the field, without having to wait for a letter from your mom saying it's OK for you to learn things.

(Thinking as a Developer) what would be your reason to help and finish the tasks SHODAN wanted you to do though? Her sending you the Modules was a.... happy medium. (it is certainly not perfect though).

 

[Kaucukovnik]

AFAIK the biggest Spector's influence on System Shock was the fact they had to sneak in additional features behind his back. I believe he can effectively help complex games like SS or DX to completion, but I'm doubtful when it comes to creative input. For all I know they just acquired a token legendary dev, as the practice goes nowadays.

But since nobody remembers the actual designers of said games, the star in the forefront it is. Spector himself opposed the notion of DX being "his" game some time ago.
"... Presents" or "Produced by ..." are popular phrases when you want to advertise your product using someone who isn't actually working on it. And even if so, producers are guys thinking in practical terms, helping the actual creatives do their work.
How many "legends" failing will it take for people to realize that the quality and success of big, team projects can never be attributed to a single person? They may have been instrumental for creating the "team magic", but they don't carry it on their person wherever they go.

If any of those dev heroes of old really had the passion and the ideas in them, do you think they'd just wait to be picked up by revival teams like this? They do what Guido Henkel did, and usually fail. Managers like Fargo or Spector stealing most spotlight don't help either.

And people keep eating this crap, hoping to reenter the same river once again.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't think Spector is heavily associated with System Shock in the public mind. Deus Ex yes, but not System Shock. System Shock itself isn't really in the public mind to begin with, only its sequel (where Ken Levine gets all the credit).

 

[Kaucukovnik]

Yeah, but he's the next best person in public eyes, and with Levine they would risk alienating grognards.
Even if Spector didn't work on SS at all, he'd be welcome on board as "the best known guy behind intelligent RPG/shooters". Again, leaving out Levine because of muh oldskool, he is for the "not the years old crap" crowd.

Seeing they also have Shock's concept artist, it looks like they have nailed the facade perfectly. We'll see whether they go deeper than that.

 

[Zombra]

(Thinking as a Developer) what would be your reason to help and finish the tasks SHODAN wanted you to do though? Her sending you the Modules was a.... happy medium. (it is certainly not perfect though).

That's a question for the writers, not the system designers. I think eliminating the threat of the Many is self-evident as a powerful motivation. "Monsters are bad, if they ever get to Earth humanity is doomed, let's kill them now" is more than sufficient reason for the player to accede to SHODAN's requests. "Do this because you're playing a video game and you want xp" is laughably bad writing by comparison, especially in a game that otherwise works so hard (and so well) to be atmospheric and immersive.

 

[Ash]

In Deus Ex, the President didn't mail you a telegram containing Skill Points whenever you completed an objective; you just got them, no ridiculous rationalization required or asked for. It was better that way.

I disagree. Through cybermodules, os upgrades and implants, the devs found a way to have semi-plausible RPG systems. If they were instead xp, perks and the like they'd be a little less in-world for no good reason. Same reason you have enchanted rings, equipable artifacts and the like in other RPGs. If you can make the systems a part of the game world/lore that the player can believe in, why not do so? It may not have been effective on you, but it helped me hold my suspension of disbelief on some minor level, and just ups the cool factor.

And yeah, to join in with the other discussion, developer celebrities as a concept is a bit silly, but that's the natural order of things. Spector likes to discuss game dev, others like to shy from the spotlight so naturally he becomes a known name whilst others do not. It is important to remember that most games are a team effort, though there usually is a "main man" behind each. I believe I read that Neurath considered System Shock to be Doug Church's baby (in design).

 

[jcd]

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[Roguey]

This thread is about System Shock 3, which Ken Levine isn't remotely involved in.

 

[Infinitron]

Jaesun This is why I always keep the split thread in the same forum for a while.

 

[Darkzone]

Jaesun This is why I always keep the split thread in the same forum for a while.

You have also to move the referenced first list elements or the parents of the nodes.

 

[The Nameless Pun]

(Thinking as a Developer) what would be your reason to help and finish the tasks SHODAN wanted you to do though? Her sending you the Modules was a.... happy medium. (it is certainly not perfect though).

That's a question for the writers, not the system designers. I think eliminating the threat of the Many is self-evident as a powerful motivation. "Monsters are bad, if they ever get to Earth humanity is doomed, let's kill them now" is more than sufficient reason for the player to accede to SHODAN's requests. "Do this because you're playing a video game and you want xp" is laughably bad writing by comparison, especially in a game that otherwise works so hard (and so well) to be atmospheric and immersive.

Da fuck?! You're a fucking soldier waking up in a fucking spaceship overrun by monsters, alone, with no weapons, with shitty upgrades that let you use incredibly advanced (gasp!) wrenches. You either work with her and get those sweet cybermods or try fighting an enemy capable of evolving at an alarming rate. The many is an evolutionary machine programmed to find fallacies and errors in biological systems and fix them in order to create species perfectly tuned to any environment. You either work with shodan to fight creatures with a collective brain quickly assimilating your fighting techniques and combat capabilities to formulate efficient counter measures or die pretending to be the hero you are not. It's not a choice at all.