Vapourware System Shock 3 by OtherSide Entertainment - taken over by Tencent!

[Avellion]

I am hearing a lot of things. And I like what I hear.

Spector: Yeah, it’s more than that. The key for me in the games I’ve worked on is, can the player surprise the people who made the game? That’s the key. It’s not about branching choices at all. It’s about players solving problems in ways that the designers don’t think are possible. When I hear people describe their experience and they talk about something that I would never have guessed, that’s when I know I’ve won.

Indeed, and it feels far too many game devs (and gamers) get it wrong. Too many AAA games are too restrictive on the player I feel, with the games being too focused on a one path or something. While throwing in the occational bone to provide the illusion of player agency.

Epic: Come into a situation with the odds heavily stacked against you. Come up with a new tactic that you (or the developers for that matter) have never thought of before. Emerge victorious from the ordeal.
Not Epic: Choose between 2 "galaxy changing" choices that the devs had completely planned beforehand.

 

[DawnrazorDCLXVI]

This just made my day.

 

[Morgoth]

Doug Church or bust.

Spoiler

Will still though.

 

[Volrath]

Didn't it though?

I disagree, can't stand to play most of the stuff from that era.

How very surprising

 

[LESS T_T]

More Chris Siegel posts at SystemShock.org.

These are from March 14: https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=8209.msg97237#msg97237

Apparently, Specter is playing through SS1 and SS2 before he starts on SS3. I think that is a great thing, but I hope he is able to appreciate the right things about these beloved games. Depth of game-play is just as important as atmosphere. The ability to modify weapons, change their firing behavior, and improve your skills with them, is something that should not be perceived as "a hassle". The same goes for many elements of System Shock.

For some reason, this whole thing kinda reminds me of Star Wars where Episode VII is the movie fans have wanted. System Shock 3 needs to be the game we fans have wanted. If Specter bases SS3 on his opinions only, then we may have some problems. He (or an important part of his team) needs to be fan(s) of the series with the intent of really making it shine even brighter. That was the problem Lucas had with Stars Wars in E1-E3. He created the movies based on his own opinions and then got pissed when the fans were pissed. Something like System Shock, with its own sub-culture, needs to be treated like a fan would treat it. That is why the mods on this site are so great; because they were created by fans and it shows.

I couldn't be more excited about SS3, especially after listening to the teaser (I got chills, as well). There's something about the teaser... It feels right... This gives me a lot of hope. I really hope Specter understands the fan-base though (at least enough to pull this off). This is my most anticipated game of all time. Crossing my fingers.

We at Otherside completely agree. But we can't be slaves to the past either. I think one of the first questions we need to ask is are we 'old time' cyberpunk, or do we push forward to 'modern' cyberpunk? So much has changed since the early days of this genre do we explore where that takes us? Episode VII is the great example of reintroduction, but to just do a beat for beat SS remake I don't think would make fans, or frankly us, happy.

Sure basic gameplay IS Looking Glass. That won't change. But I see a number of people talking about another Haunted House experience, retreading that same ideal. I'm not sure that is the best call..it may be the right call. There are other fears than isolation. What happens if Shodan gets into the wild? What happens if she 'wins'? Either of these threads won't allow the game to take place in a vacuum. Anyway...

But Cyberspace and cyberpunk in general has so many new and interesting threads to pull. Cyborg-ism, bio-enginnering, hell, computing in general has completely changed since 99.

All of this said, I'm head down in Underworld right now and honestly try not to give Shock too many brain cells.

Retro: Best example is the latest Alien game which kept to the seventies version of the future.

But is that really what we want to do with Shock?

Like I said, I'm not completely sure that Retrofuture is the way to go. It all starts feeling like a Terry Brooks film to me thinking that way, and never feels quite right.

Now, reimagining old cyberpunk tropes with modern thoughts around it. I still think 'entering' the net can be done and still be awesome. But what that looks like needs to be completely reimagined, even if we kept the cyperpunk terminology the same -black ice..exc.

Please don't stray too far from SS2's look and feel (aesthetics and gameplay). Once again I want to point at "Invisible War" as a warning and bad example. And then compare that to Human Revolution (+The Missing Link). Otherwise what's the point of using the franchise?

In terms of visible cyberspace I can't really think of an appealing way to make it look less retro as it's one of the few tropes that didn't become a reality. I guess that's not just because of hardware limitations but simply because 2D-diagrams and text-based lists still offer a better overview of the desired informations then fancy 3D-tunnels you have to maneuver through with almost zero usability.

So if you'd want to make that more realistic I guess it should be more like todays augmanted reality-applications for engineering or architects. You know, enhancing stuff visually only when it makes sense in the context and offering text or symbols where that is the easier to comprehend solution. Offering options for zooming in and out of stuff, etc..

There are some interesting videos about the HoloLens on YT. If you'd replace the 80ies cyberspace with something like that in SS3, I'd consider it a reasonable update but I guess others would find that too much of a change already.

That said--look at Star Trek TNG vs. TOS, or BattleStar vs old Battlestar. You can nod back to the originals but still modernize. Like old Trek, there has been so much advancement in our world that some of Shock just isn't Sci-fi anymore. It may come off very forced if we just retro it. Unlike the Alien game, which worked because the noises, wall patterns, suit design exc, not only became the genre, but frankly were designed by Gieger, so calling back to that completely works.

Well, most Cyberpunk of that era really is just noir.

First I've seen of that remake alpha. cool.

First off, games and the lone wolf is so overdone for obvious reasons.

I guess part of what I question is twofold. The lone hacker story line is one of them. Is there another way?

The other is claustrophobia and Isolophobia are not the only fears to explore. Part of what makes sequels interesting is flipping the convention on it's head. Hell, part of what making games is interesting is doing that, like we did with Thief, a FPS that you suck at killing. I wonder--and this is just me, not Warren or anyone else, but I wonder what happens when you put Shodan in a situation that is not in isolation.

The obvious answer is Skynet...but not completely. Shodan is not just angry AI, there is more there. The outcome would not be Judgement day, it would be something far more devious.

And as someone said, maybe this is not for this sequel. Maybe this is the re-introduction story. Maybe we should just hit the beats tread in Shock 1 and 2. Maybe enough time has past and the old would be new again.

But would that really be the Looking Glass way?

A System Shock game must be driven by technical / narrative / game design innovation. The plot doesn't matter too much at first. Don't start with the plot. The only things you need to keep are: 1. the timeline of the previous games, since it's a sequel, as well as the general direction of their aesthetics; 2. S.H.O.D.A.N. which, unfortunately (or not) has become a pre-requisite if you don't want your game to be badly received; 3. complex and dense game structures with lots of information, lots of exploration, lots of environmental interaction and lots of nonessential content; 4. first person camera; 5. shooting things. If you get all five, you have a System Shock game, whatever it does or says. Although arguably, an isolated player in a derelict environment is also a common factor, but the trope might be overplayed by now with the first two games plus Alien: Isolation recently (also the upcoming Routine and over games I might be forgetting).

We are not starting with the plot.

The past year on Underworld has been about building our 'verbs' for players to use--and the title of the game doesn't matter. The underpinnings of systems for Underworld are going to translate very nicely into Shock, and whatever else we do.

But setting and mood are important on this title..maybe more than Underworld. Breaking the 'Tolkien' mold in fantasy is not difficult, even though it is very uncommon in games. Shock's mood plays a ton into the gameplay, so it has to be thought about right up front.

1.yep
2.Yes Shodan. Of Course. Shodan is about as close to a mascot as we have. Which in some sense is really kind of disturbing.
3.yep to the nines.
4.yep we don't like 3rd person very much.
5.I like shooting things.

Bioshock - I think it was too much story, not enough player authored game play. I enjoyed it, but compared to Thief/Shock it was a step backward in the game play dept. A step forward in narrative devices. I'm a bad alumni- I haven't played the second or third ones. These days I gravitate more to the sandbox shooters, less to the corridor crawlers.

Yesterday, he also popped up in a thread that discusses Unity's capabilities to run System Shock-like games. This is more relevant to Underworld Ascendant: https://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=8496.msg98083#msg98083

so no idea what engine we would be using.

But, we did pick Unity for Underworld for a reason. Doing the kind of gameplay we speicalize in it just made far more sense. Making something 'real' in Unity --i.e. not scripted..is far easier than say Unreal. With the new lighting engine in 5 they are getting close to Unreal in looks. But its not about the looks is it.

Here is an example of what we like about Unity. Tim builds a trap. It uses 'springs'. It has gears. Now, in other games you would have to add scripting for diabling the trap, it can get complicated...and frankly developers then say screw it and stop placing traps because they are a pain in the ass.

Our trap is just a prefab, it works. You can disarm it, bash it with a rock, stop the gears somehow exc. Because it has all those properties already. Since it is part of the physical world, all our physical rules automagically apply. Honestly the first time we did this with a trap we all had that look of..why doesn't everyone do it this way? Now you can do all of the above in any engine. But the simplicity of doing it in unity compared to a blueprint in Unreal or worse diving under the covers into C like the old days is far more time consuming. So for us, living with the limitations that Unity has- and it does have them, was worth it for the modularity of the systems design.

 

[DeepOcean]

Hmmm... my ears liked this. Didn't Shodan compared itself with God? What if she is the cybernetic God of the new earth and her children walk the streets?

 

[Turtle-Zone 3000]

Hmmm... my ears liked this. Didn't Shodan compared itself with God? What if she is the cybernetic God of the new earth and her children walk the streets?

Gives me vibes of this, though at that point it seems like theres little chance to win against her.

 

[Athelas]

For some reason, this whole thing kinda reminds me of Star Wars where Episode VII is the movie fans have wanted. System Shock 3 needs to be the game we fans have wanted.

I can't believe The Force Awakens is being used as a positive example of how to reboot a franchise.

Anyway, I hope they do something interesting with Shodan, although I'm not holding my breath. Neither of the two System Shocks really managed to (in fact, the second one completely squandered the story potential of Shodan being a victim of her own creations).

 

[almondblight]

Evil AI's get's boring after a while. Durandal was fairly interesting as far as crazy, megalomaniacal AI go. He wasn't that interested in humans beyond how they could be used to further his goals (which were appropriately far reaching). Sometimes those goals aligned with the player's, sometimes they were in conflict.

 

[The Nameless Pun]

For some reason, this whole thing kinda reminds me of Star Wars where Episode VII is the movie fans have wanted. System Shock 3 needs to be the game we fans have wanted.

I can't believe The Force Awakens is being used as a positive example of how to reboot a franchise.

Anyway, I hope they do something interesting with Shodan, although I'm not holding my breath. Neither of the two System Shocks really managed to (in fact, the second one completely squandered the story potential of Shodan being a victim of her own creations).

Tell me, how does one squander the story potential of a character by making the greatest villain in video game history?

 

[Athelas]

For some reason, this whole thing kinda reminds me of Star Wars where Episode VII is the movie fans have wanted. System Shock 3 needs to be the game we fans have wanted.

I can't believe The Force Awakens is being used as a positive example of how to reboot a franchise.

Anyway, I hope they do something interesting with Shodan, although I'm not holding my breath. Neither of the two System Shocks really managed to (in fact, the second one completely squandered the story potential of Shodan being a victim of her own creations).

Tell me, how does one squander the story potential of a character by making the greatest villain in video game history?

Shodan is entertaining, thanks to some amazing voice work, but interesting she is not. All she does is call in from time to time to cackle maniacally - the actual enemy in the System Shock games is the level design, and the obstacles it presents.

Admottedly writing a compelling evil A.I. is tricky, because you can't fall back on what works for human villains, but even going the HAL 9000 route, cliche as it is, is far more interesting.

The praise for System Shock 2's Shodan is particularly baffling since the first System Shock did a much better job with her - you had a continous back-and-forth with you foiling Shodan's plans several times (sabotaging the laser, jettisoning the groves, etc.) and you actually had to go into Shodan's domain (cyberspace) to face her. In System Shock 2 you just follow her orders like a boyscout until both of you get the memo that it's time for the epic boss fight.

 

[Razor]

When it comes to SS3: Will it feature gay romances?

 

[Perkel]

Tell me, how does one squander the story potential of a character by making the greatest villain in video game history?

Why SHODAN needs to be villain ? I mean after two games they can do something different with it.

Think Freespace2 alien race and how it subversed whole theme of the game in last mission because it precisely did something unexpected to trope.

But i agree with someone saying thta SS games are all about level design. SS is level design. Shodan could be worst AI ever voiced by potato but level design is what made SS games so awesome.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

I would much prefer SS1 fan service than SS2 fan service.

 

[almondblight]

Episode 4 was stupid as fuck, dialogues were unbearable and the way han solo treated Leia made me puke, the way the world was presented was dumb, C3PO was annoying even more than jar jar (at least jar jar disappears after the phantom menace while C3PO is in 4 [FOUR] movies), the story was a joke.

It was kind of stupid, but it didn't have Luke on Tatooine looking up in the sky and seeing Alderaan blow up, or Luke kicking Darth Vader's ass when he arrives on the Death Star, or them taking out the Death Star by randomly bumping into one of the imperial generals and telling him to shut it down. Episode VII did. It took idiotic writing to a new level.

 

[Jaesun]

I would much prefer SS1 fan service than SS2 fan service.

There is a lot they could pull from both though....

 

[Seaking4]

The Force Awakens sucks. It even makes the prequels look good.

I wouldn't go that far but yes it wasn't good. Was even more annoying how people lauded it for weeks. Made me dislike it even more.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

I would much prefer SS1 fan service than SS2 fan service.

There is a lot they could pull from both though....

You are right of course. I guess I am just biased as SS1, on the heels of Underworld was a return to LGS style gaming and it blew my mind at the time.

 

[The Nameless Pun]

Episode 4 was stupid as fuck, dialogues were unbearable and the way han solo treated Leia made me puke, the way the world was presented was dumb, C3PO was annoying even more than jar jar (at least jar jar disappears after the phantom menace while C3PO is in 4 [FOUR] movies), the story was a joke.

It was kind of stupid, but it didn't have Luke on Tatooine looking up in the sky and seeing Alderaan blow up, or Luke kicking Darth Vader's ass when he arrives on the Death Star, or them taking out the Death Star by randomly bumping into one of the imperial generals and telling him to shut it down. Episode VII did. It took idiotic writing to a new level.

And it doesn't have a space station with a glaring design problem linking the surface directly to the core, or a young main character blowing a moon-sized space station by closing his eyes and shooting a single lucky shot, or an extremely lucky coincidence in wich two guys find a princess inside said space station and save her by jumping inside a trash compactor, or the same princess not shedding a single tear over the destruction of her home planet. Wait a second...

Spoiler

Really, if we want to compare these movies in terms of stupidity, it's like beating each other on the head and seeing which one's brains splatter out first.

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

Just have them stick to the traditional and makes labyrinthian level designs while overpowered monsters with horrible shrieking pursue you through them. While turrets activate to toast you.

If they try something new, it'll most likely be shit. New age devs are just too bad.

 

[Taskityo]

I'm hoping they stick to design mechanics of SS1 and/or SS2, or even a mash-up of both; let people figure things out on their own if its designed well. It 'seems' like that is what they may envision, but will have to wait and see. Personally I'd rather they stick to Shodan as the villain, that's a given (obviously it will, it survived after all, the AI virus that it is) - plus if they make it VR-capable there is some high potential for major mind fuckery or new mechanics in that aspect (vr hacking, etc.).

 

[Zombra]

No cyber modules please.

 

[Jaesun]

No cyber modules please.

What was wrong with them?

 

[The Nameless Pun]

How was level design in SS1? I keep hearing people say they find SS2's level design excellent, I don't understand, I don't think it was that great. I remember the engineering deck being pretty awesome with all those maze-like corridors but other than that, everything else wasn't particularly brilliant. I'd like to hear more thoughts on this.

 

[Zombra]

No cyber modules please.

What was wrong with them?

The shell was just too dumb, took me out of the atmosphere. "Yay, you fixed the toilet, I'm magically granting you 16 cyber modules by telling you this. They're not a virtual currency, though; you might find some fist-sized objects lying around and those are cyber modules too so watch out for them. Check the toilet tank, maybe there're some in there." What the hell are these, really? It would have been fine if SHODAN just never mentioned them and they appeared like xp with no explanation, but trying to justify their existence in the fiction didn't work for me at all.