Street Fighter 6

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

It's a good thing. Removing move execution so players only need to think about the implementation of the move as opposed to needing to think of the execution of just getting it out consistently isn't a bad thing.

The reason why they keep doing these retard-friendly mechanics is because the developers think that the super casual player who can't do a Shoryuken to save their life in 2022 actually gives a shit about that as a selling point. They don't. Most of what will sell a fighting game is the IP, the advertising campaign and whatever value it looks like they can get with their money.

Execution should always be in fighting games. Things like the Daigo Parry or doing Neo Deadly Raves become a lot less impressive when every single person can effortlessly pull it off by just spamming a button.

They don't care about it as a selling point, but it is absolutely a thing that can keep a casual player. I've definitely noticed when trying to play fighting games in the past with friends that aren't all that into fighting games, that move inputs can definitely be a barrier of entry, and they can be something that just shuts people out after a match or two.

The Daigo Parry point is fucking stupid given a parry is done by just pressing forward in SF3. Neo Deadly Rave is also a move with mostly single button inputs. You picked like the two dumbest things you could pick because what makes doing those things impressive is the timing. What you're looking for are like the Raising Storm, Double 360 moves, maybe double charge moves, and weird Darkstalker inputs that got dropped after the first game. You could switch Neo Deadly Rave to direction plus button at the beginning and end with a bunch of single button presses in between (like normal) and it's not a radically different thing. Here's the thing about move inputs, they're only a barrier to beginners (the new people they're trying to get and keep) because they don't really matter to hardcore fighting game player. People that play fighting games don't not finish a Neo Deadly Rave because of the starting move input.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

They don't care about it as a selling point, but it is absolutely a thing that can keep a casual player. I've definitely noticed when trying to play fighting games in the past with friends that aren't all that into fighting games, that move inputs can definitely be a barrier of entry, and they can be something that just shuts people out after a match or two.

They get shut out because of the skill discrepancy between your friends and you or anyone else that actually put in the time to learn how to do the moves. They are probably hitting the buttons like someone's grandma wondering what is happening while they're getting annihilated by a more experienced player. Why should the experienced player have a competitive match with someone that is new to fighting games? That's why you have them separated and why something rudimentary like a rank system exists. Move inputs being a barrier to entry is an excuse for them not liking to lose miserably. Having better matchmaking for genuine beginners would go further with these players than having to risk dumbing down the game for everyone else.

The Daigo Parry point is fucking stupid given a parry is done by just pressing forward in SF3.

The Daigo Parry was a moment that goes to show why you don't cater to braindead zombies. It was impressive due to it being a high stakes match, Daigo himself being at risk of being dead in a hit, and getting every single parry frame perfectly then punishing it for the win. That was brought on due to someone that mastered the parry system in 3S which requires execution and knowledge. Knowledge someone that cries about tough inputs won't ever learn.

Neo Deadly Rave is also a move with mostly single button inputs.

And the people who bitch about move inputs will never ever be able to do it, of this I'm 100% sure.

Idk why you're trying to educate me when you're a guy that plays Smash Bros tbh.

 

[d1r]

Can't say that I am not hyped. The art style looks great and the character roster has some interesting new picks too:

Spoiler

 

[just]

Can't say that I am not hyped. The art style looks great and the character roster has some interesting new picks too:

Spoiler

italia, big oof and medium yikes
hope chinese chick(not chun) is a zoner coz god damn i dont want to play as guile

 

[Vincente]

Can't say that I am not hyped. The art style looks great and the character roster has some interesting new picks too:

Spoiler

Where did you find this? Was it a part of the leak from 3 months ago?

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

They don't care about it as a selling point, but it is absolutely a thing that can keep a casual player. I've definitely noticed when trying to play fighting games in the past with friends that aren't all that into fighting games, that move inputs can definitely be a barrier of entry, and they can be something that just shuts people out after a match or two.

They get shut out because of the skill discrepancy between your friends and you or anyone else that actually put in the time to learn how to do the moves. They are probably hitting the buttons like someone's grandma wondering what is happening while they're getting annihilated by a more experienced player. Why should the experienced player have a competitive match with someone that is new to fighting games? That's why you have them separated and why something rudimentary like a rank system exists. Move inputs being a barrier to entry is an excuse for them not liking to lose miserably. Having better matchmaking for genuine beginners would go further with these players than having to risk dumbing down the game for everyone else.

If the only reason a experienced player can't beat a new player is because the new player can't consistently execute the move inputs then the experienced player is shit. If the new player has a better understanding of how to use the moves than the experienced player, why shouldn't the new player be able to compete and even win?

To me the argument is just stupid, because at a certain level the move inputs kind of stop being a problem. For the most part anyways. If the move inputs don't matter to experienced players, and they can stop (some) new players from really getting into the game to begin with, then what's really even the point of them when alternatives that work just as well are out there?

Easier move inputs also clearly do help, which is probably the whole reason Capcom dropped double motion inputs for Hyper moves in the Marvel games. Fuck, in the Marvel games you can do a Hyper move by just pressing two buttons together. They also let you dash by pressing the punch buttons together as opposed to tapping forward twice.

The Daigo Parry point is fucking stupid given a parry is done by just pressing forward in SF3.

The Daigo Parry was a moment that goes to show why you don't cater to braindead zombies. It was impressive due to it being a high stakes match, Daigo himself being at risk of being dead in a hit, and getting every single parry frame perfectly then punishing it for the win. That was brought on due to someone that mastered the parry system in 3S which requires execution and knowledge. Knowledge someone that cries about tough inputs won't ever learn.

Neo Deadly Rave is also a move with mostly single button inputs.

And the people who bitch about move inputs will never ever be able to do it, of this I'm 100% sure.

Idk why you're trying to educate me when you're a guy that plays Smash Bros tbh.

But your point was about one button inputs and the parry is a "one button" input. It was a dumb point to try and make with what you were using given the point you're trying to make. You actually fucked up your point so hard that the point you actually made was that you can have complexity with simple inputs.

I'm trying to educate you because you clearly don't know what you're talking about and I can make your own point for you better than you can...but mostly, really, because I'm bored. Also, don't you like Moral Kombat? That's a series with simple move inputs, (in comparison to SF2 anyways) and for the longest time you had like universal normals for everyone in MK to keep things easy to remember. I also haven't played a Smash Bros. game since the GameCube.

 

[d1r]

Can't say that I am not hyped. The art style looks great and the character roster has some interesting new picks too:

Spoiler

Where did you find this? Was it a part of the leak from 3 months ago?

I found it on the four chainz. No idea where the actual picture came from.

 

[RoBoBOBR]

 

[mediocrepoet]

Can't say that I am not hyped. The art style looks great and the character roster has some interesting new picks too:

Spoiler

Where did you find this? Was it a part of the leak from 3 months ago?

I found it on the four chainz. No idea where the actual picture came from.

I knew I was getting behind on my Street Fighter knowledge since the series has been in a long running decline since Third Strike, but who the hell are half of these guys?

Not knowing the roster, hyping up the introduction of Smash Bros controls in a main line Street Fighter. I'm anti-hyped. I'll probably give this one a miss unless there's some great reason to check it out.

 

[d1r]

Can't say that I am not hyped. The art style looks great and the character roster has some interesting new picks too:

Spoiler

Where did you find this? Was it a part of the leak from 3 months ago?

I found it on the four chainz. No idea where the actual picture came from.

I knew I was getting behind on my Street Fighter knowledge since the series has been in a long running decline since Third Strike, but who the hell are half of these guys?

Not knowing the roster, hyping up the introduction of Smash Bros controls in a main line Street Fighter. I'm anti-hyped. I'll probably give this one a miss unless there's some great reason to check it out.

A lot of them are newcomers.

 

[mediocrepoet]

A lot of them are newcomers.

Thanks. I knew they introduced a lot of new characters in SFV and I didn't know who all of them were, like people talking about Luke and I was like who tf is Luke?

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

Can't say that I am not hyped. The art style looks great and the character roster has some interesting new picks too:

Spoiler

Where did you find this? Was it a part of the leak from 3 months ago?

I found it on the four chainz. No idea where the actual picture came from.

I knew I was getting behind on my Street Fighter knowledge since the series has been in a long running decline since Third Strike, but who the hell are half of these guys?

Not knowing the roster, hyping up the introduction of Smash Bros controls in a main line Street Fighter. I'm anti-hyped. I'll probably give this one a miss unless there's some great reason to check it out.

Well, the bottom eight are the new characters. The top characters I'm sure you know. And the middle characters are returning Street Fighters with new designs. Since they're in spoiler tags I won't say who they are, but they're easy to guess based on the flags.

I kind of can't believe there isn't a single fucking Final Fight character in this given how heavily Final Fight's Metro City looks like it's going to be featured in this. Also odd there isn't a single SF3 character. I would've thought like Alex and Q, and Guy and Cody would've made it in.

I'm also a little surprised the girl shown fighting with Chun-Li in the trailer isn't one of the playable characters. Wonder if that's just some story characters related to Chun-Li, or if that's a created character that just happens to be more polished looking than the ones seen in other parts of the trailer.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Well, the bottom eight are the new characters. The top characters I'm sure you know. And the middle characters are returning Street Fighters with new designs. Since they're in spoiler tags I won't say who they are, but they're easy to guess based on the flags.

I kind of can't believe there isn't a single fucking Final Fight character in this given how heavily Final Fight's Metro City looks like it's going to be featured in this. Also odd there isn't a single SF3 character. I would've thought like Alex and Q, and Guy and Cody would've made it in.

I'm also a little surprised the girl shown fighting with Chun-Li in the trailer isn't one of the playable characters. Wonder if that's just some story characters related to Chun-Li, or if that's a created character that just happens to be more polished looking than the ones seen in other parts of the trailer.

Thanks man. I recognized everyone down to the third row, so that's good to know.
The girl could be brushed up for a cutscene or maybe a DLC given Capcom's history of doling out significant portions of DLC characters. Same with the Final Fight characters.

Does anyone actually like SF3 characters, outside of maybe Makoto? SF3 was awesome, but I hated all the characters they added. I was always a Ryu diehard though, even when they made Ken generally better.

 

[Vincente]

I'm also a little surprised the girl shown fighting with Chun-Li in the trailer isn't one of the playable characters. Wonder if that's just some story characters related to Chun-Li, or if that's a created character that just happens to be more polished looking than the ones seen in other parts of the trailer.

I think she's the girl that Chun was training at the end of Third Strike, Li Fen is her name.

Does anyone actually like SF3 characters, outside of maybe Makoto?

Q, Dudley, Oro, Akuma, Hugo, Alex were all sick.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

Well, the bottom eight are the new characters. The top characters I'm sure you know. And the middle characters are returning Street Fighters with new designs. Since they're in spoiler tags I won't say who they are, but they're easy to guess based on the flags.

I kind of can't believe there isn't a single fucking Final Fight character in this given how heavily Final Fight's Metro City looks like it's going to be featured in this. Also odd there isn't a single SF3 character. I would've thought like Alex and Q, and Guy and Cody would've made it in.

I'm also a little surprised the girl shown fighting with Chun-Li in the trailer isn't one of the playable characters. Wonder if that's just some story characters related to Chun-Li, or if that's a created character that just happens to be more polished looking than the ones seen in other parts of the trailer.

Thanks man. I recognized everyone down to the third row, so that's good to know.
The girl could be brushed up for a cutscene or maybe a DLC given Capcom's history of doling out significant portions of DLC characters. Same with the Final Fight characters.

Does anyone actually like SF3 characters, outside of maybe Makoto? SF3 was awesome, but I hated all the characters they added. I was always a Ryu diehard though, even when they made Ken generally better.

Capcom had a popularity poll back in 2017, and Q was number 4 on it. I don't know if that's just people fucking with the poll, because that seems really high, (and I like Q a lot) but that's where he landed. The Top 10 in that poll were:

1. Sakura
2. Makoto
3. Juri
4. Q
5. Cody
6. Chun-Li
7. Sagat
8. Akuma
9. Ryu
10. Blanka

Dudley, Oro, Yun, and Alex also landed in the Top 30. Some of the returning characters here fall below that Top 30.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Capcom had a popularity poll back in 2017, and Q was number 4 on it. I don't know if that's just people fucking with the poll, because that seems really high, (and I like Q a lot) but that's where he landed. The Top 10 in that poll were:

1. Sakura
2. Makoto
3. Juri
4. Q
5. Cody
6. Chun-Li
7. Sagat
8. Akuma
9. Ryu
10. Blanka

Dudley, Oro, Yun, and Alex also landed in the Top 30. Some of the returning characters here fall below that Top 30.

Might be his design. Q has a pretty cool visual aesthetic. At the time I was into the various iterations of SF3 though, I was sort of turned off by most of the new characters and their weirdo designs and how like half of them were aliens or something, so I tended to stick to the more grounded fighters like the shotos, etc.

I like Sakura, never really learned Makoto, but I know she's super powerful and appreciate that she's not a one armed alien or robot or anything.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

To me the argument is just stupid, because at a certain level the move inputs kind of stop being a problem. For the most part anyways. If the move inputs don't matter to experienced players, and they can stop (some) new players from really getting into the game to begin with, then what's really even the point of them when alternatives that work just as well are out there?

Because that's called "getting good with practice." Those become second nature because the people put in the time and effort, as with most things. You would rather erase that step because you play with people that study for blood tests. If a new player really has the drive to get better, they actually will. It happened 30 years ago and it's still happening today.

Easier move inputs also clearly do help, which is probably the whole reason Capcom dropped double motion inputs for Hyper moves in the Marvel games. Fuck, in the Marvel games you can do a Hyper move by just pressing two buttons together. They also let you dash by pressing the punch buttons together as opposed to tapping forward twice.

Cool, then you'd have known that those old Marvel games actually did include simple/rookie modes after selecting your characters. Heads up: they didn't help anyone that used them and just left them getting smashed by better players. If your whole intent is to try and create a more level playing field between an experienced player and a new player, removing half the move set of the new player isn't doing them any favors.

But your point was about one button inputs and the parry is a "one button" input. It was a dumb point to try and make with what you were using given the point you're trying to make. You actually fucked up your point so hard that the point you actually made was that you can have complexity with simple inputs.

My point was that execution should always be apart of fighting games because that execution is what leads to impressive moments like that Daigo Parry. The Parry mechanic in Third Strike is not something that is easily applied, hence why it made a whole room full of people react with awe. You want special moves to be more or less one button presses. Do you understand the difference of knowing the proper timing and frames to do a specific parry, especially against attacks that hit multiple times vs. just hitting a single button and out comes a special move? Are you now going to tell me because FADC'ing in SF4 means you hit two buttons at the same time and tap forward twice it's easy even though it requires proper execution on the player performing it to get the most out of? Do you understand how that differs slightly from just tapping a button and out comes a fireball?

Also, don't you like Moral Kombat? That's a series with simple move inputs, (in comparison to SF2 anyways) and for the longest time you had like universal normals for everyone in MK to keep things easy to remember. I also haven't played a Smash Bros. game since the GameCube.

I dunno, some of the old MK games had fucky inputs especially if you played in arcade and dealt with the button layout but I enjoy most fighting games if they're decent. My primary fighting game of choice is KOF so having a guy that shills a shitty Smash Bros clone and sees controls like DNF Duel's as net positives for the genre is always going to be met with wonder if you can lend me your handicap sticker for good parking purposes.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

I would erase that step because that step is superfluous. The real thing to learn even beyond the move inputs is the functions and utility of the moves. I would however probably have all moves use meter so moves can't be abused, and meter management becomes a think that needs to be thought about more.

The parry in SF3 is something that is easily applied because it's an incredibly simple input. You just press forward. It's one god damn input. It's literally the type of thing you're bitching about. It's so simple you might accidentally do it in a fight. It's so simple it basically kills Ryu's long distance fireball game from SF2 in SF3. What's impressive about the Daigo Perry is the timing it takes to pull off so many parries in a row, not the input it takes to just do a parry in the first place. The Parry in SF3 is simple to use, yet hard to master. A new player that has a hard time with move inputs, that might not even be able to do Super Arts could probably still parry at least a single hitting attack.

You also brought up the Deadly Rave. The Deadly Rave only has two special move inputs in it, where people usually fuck up doing the Deadly Rave is the single button chain commands in the middle. You can still have the simple inputs that begin and end the move and still have the normal single button chain commands in between that throw people off. The part of the move that falls under the thing you're making such a big deal about is the easy part of the move.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I would erase that step because that step is superfluous. The real thing to learn even beyond the move inputs is the functions and utility of the moves. I would however probably have all moves use meter so moves can't be abused, and meter management becomes a think that needs to be thought about more.

The parry in SF3 is something that is easily applied because it's an incredibly simple input. You just press forward. It's one god damn input. It's literally the type of thing you're bitching about. It's so simple you might accidentally do it in a fight. It's so simple it basically kills Ryu's long distance fireball game from SF2 in SF3. What's impressive about the Daigo Perry is the timing it takes to pull off so many parries in a row, not the input it takes to just do a parry in the first place. The Parry in SF3 is simple to use, yet hard to master. A new player that has a hard time with move inputs, that might not even be able to do Super Arts could probably still parry at least a single hitting attack.

I don't think so. Removing the technical element of actually learning to execute a move changes a game fundamentally. It could still be a good game, but it would be different, since some of the hard to pull moves have a risk/reward element, nevermind if you flub it because you're flustered or not good enough or whatever.

The meter thing is an interesting idea and you might be able to make an interesting and competitive game out of it, but it will be fundamentally different than the traditional one on one fighting game due to the removal of any technical barrier.

The parry move is easy, like you say, you just push forward. But you can screw it up because it's a tap, so if you push forward too long, you'll just walk forward. It can also screw you if you're trying to play footsies and end up accidentally going into a parry motion, etc. These are things that may not be high bars but they do impact your performance in the game and are a fundamental part of the experience. Beyond that, the parry window is less forgiving than you seem to indicate and many people who try to parry will end up eating attacks, nevermind whether they can pull off something like a Daigo parry which blew my mind the first time I saw it.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

I would erase that step because that step is superfluous.

If something as standard as learning how to do your character's special moves is superfluous then you're gonna hate all the other shit you have to do to not be stuck in the lowest ranks possible. And good idea, nothing will make fighting game players more excited than learning their normal special moves now suddenly take meter and this likely means also that the interesting EX versions that would lead to things like combo opportunities are now gone. Your ways of trying to accommodate for these braindead inputs would truly dumb the game down and make it boring to play that I don't see how it would attract or retain anyone.

Parry in SF3 is simple to use, yet hard to master.

Yes, that's what I said. That timing goes along with the execution which is why that Daigo Parry is so revered. It's a literal risk vs. reward. If it was anywhere near as easy as you're suggesting to pull off then most Third Strike games between good players would end in time outs or draw games since "it's just a tap forward" after all. But the reality is much different and saying something vs. executing it especially where it counts most is what separates the good from the great from the best.

Removing the technical element of actually learning to execute a move changes a game fundamentally.

As well as characters. Charge characters and grapplers would need to be overhauled. But again, this is all pointless since new players/casuals are not moved to buy a game by its ease of controls or that geeky fighting game systems shit but instead by other more obvious factors like in-game content, presentation/polish, and Cammy's tight ass.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I should clarify, the Daigo parry still blows my mind when I see it. I can't do that shit, even when I was at the height of my fighting game prowess and treated them like a second full time job.

A point that I forgot to make is that I think that dumbing down fighting games, or even changing them to remove the technical barrier that involves manual dexterity, won't just potentially make it inviting for quadriplegics or whoever you're trying to appeal to, it'll also kill interest for fans of traditional fighting games. I may not be able to log the hours I used to to be good at these games, but they still appeal to me. But as soon as you start talking about Smash Bros tier simplifications, my eyes glaze over. It can be a fun game, but you'd have to be delusional to think these are anywhere near the same sorts of thing.

 

[Kruno]

I forgot this game existed.

How is the e-sports scene for it?

 

[Sunri]

Alien looking mofo

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

I should clarify, the Daigo parry still blows my mind when I see it. I can't do that shit, even when I was at the height of my fighting game prowess and treated them like a second full time job.

A point that I forgot to make is that I think that dumbing down fighting games, or even changing them to remove the technical barrier that involves manual dexterity, won't just potentially make it inviting for quadriplegics or whoever you're trying to appeal to, it'll also kill interest for fans of traditional fighting games. I may not be able to log the hours I used to to be good at these games, but they still appeal to me. But as soon as you start talking about Smash Bros tier simplifications, my eyes glaze over. It can be a fun game, but you'd have to be delusional to think these are anywhere near the same sorts of thing.

The amusing thing is, fighting games have actually gotten easier to play but just not to zombified degrees like what the other guy up there is proposing.

KOF XV for anyone that has experience in the series can feel how much more lenient it is compared to the older games. One immediate example is activating quick max mode in something like KOF 2002 which has you immediately go into state and needs you to be on top of your execution without any hesitation. KOF XV gives you this very slight pause/freeze frame when you activate it which may not seem like much but it's actually a godsend for anyone trying to learn because it gives you time to adjust on what you're going to do. They've also made the Climax/Level 3 Super for everyone a baseline QCB + HCF SP/SK so you can easily remember how to pull it off.

SFV eliminated one frame links entirely and increased hitstun which makes combos in that game easier to do than in any SF before it. Many fighting games today, legacy or not, have done their part in easing up for new players. If you ask me it's about getting those players to go online and play and fight those of similar skill level that will ultimately keep them around. As long as they can feel their efforts bear some accomplishment, it's what makes people stick to playing any sort of competitive game.