Vapourware Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Remake from Saber Interactive

[NecroLord]

Vitiate is a fanfic-tier character. Drew decided to fabricate from wholecloth a being supposedly tied to the Old Sith Empire, an important figure of which there is no prior mention in that material, and have it take center stage as the supreme leader of the empire in exile. We're meant to just take for granted that some rando jumped the ranks ahead of all the other lords that were named in the comics, (some of which probably survived the disaster) and that this new character also had no ambition to insert himself in galactic affairs at the time of the Sith's best chance at victory, the moment when they were sieging the core. Further, the feeble excuse given for this is because Vitiate was *somehow* prescient enough to see that Sadow's adventuring would lead to ruin and that Kressh wasn't capable of holding back the tide. If Vitiate really was the most capable Sith at the time could have easily outmaneuvered Kressh and assumed control of that faction. Would have been easy to discredit Ludo as he had a deep personal investment in seeing Sadow destroyed after he got ass-raped at Khar Delba.

Then they go even further by taking all the raw power of Force Hunger and just flat out ignore all the negative addictive side effects that occur when relying too heavily upon it. It's just wish-fulfilment fantasy. The issue isn't even godlike-power it's that there are no consequences and any weaknesses are just as unbelievable. Revan's centuries-long captivity for instance is one of the most retarded ideas ever conceived in Star Wars.

Yes... after being dominated by the true Dark Lord of the Sith, the being that can jump bodies over millennia spending lifetimes as a painter or a farmer, gaining all knowledge of every walk of life, a guy who was disciplined enough to patiently craft a thousand-year conspiracy to return and destroy all his enemies *somehow!* had his will subverted by Revan, a failed Sith Lord turned Jedi, a guy who thought it was a fine idea to leave an insubordinate apprentice on a leash and in doing so, grasped defeat from the jaws of victory. There is no overlooking this nonsense.

Vitiate further failed when he dominated the minds of both Revan and Malak and left them on their own to wage war against the Republic and the Jedi. They eventually broke free from his grasp and used the Star Forge on their quest to subjugate the Republic. Revan had foresight and was one of the best strategists in the Galaxy. Malak was, in HK-47's own words "an angry club".
TOR made Revan a bitch. There is no other way to say it.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Revan had foresight and was one of the best strategists in the Galaxy.

Revan had some foresight, one would say a reasonable amount for any strong character with K2's additions to the lore, however it's absurd to think that he could stand toe to toe with Vitiate as they are both presented in TOR. The setup doesn't even make sense in regard to itself. Lesser will cannot subvert a greater will and Revan had already lost the contest of wills when he and Malak were initially dominated. The game then asks us to believe that he *somehow* broke free when he was kept as a Sith mathom in a nightmare stasis for 300 years.

It would be believable that Revan might have thought he had a chance at taking on the True Sith alone if they weren't headed by an essentially immortal, omniscient god-emperor, but rather just a succession of exceptionally powerful Dark Lords, with a particularly dangerous ideology as intended in K2. He might have relied on it resembling the Old Sith Empire where there would be internal rivalries to exploit and possibilities to sow division, but he'd have to be delusional to think he could outplay the Sith anti-Christ of TOR having actually met with him. Revan being only a mortal thought in terms of years at a push. The gap of experience would be too great between them if Vitiate was well written, and Revan at minimum would have been able to recognize that if he was well written.

As it stands, neither were well written, Revan was retardo'ed and the Emperor was made into an anime villain. Imo, Obsidian had the right idea, and Bioware ignoring what was interesting (the ideology, the mystery, the "otherness" of a wicked civilization in isolation) in favor of investing the idea into one all-powerful being leading a Galactic Empire clone was pure decline.

 

[Storyfag]

Revan's centuries-long captivity for instance is one of the most retarded ideas ever conceived in Star Wars.

Yes... after being dominated by the true Dark Lord of the Sith, the being that can jump bodies over millennia spending lifetimes as a painter or a farmer, gaining all knowledge of every walk of life, a guy who was disciplined enough to patiently craft a thousand-year conspiracy to return and destroy all his enemies *somehow!* had his will subverted by Revan, a failed Sith Lord turned Jedi, a guy who thought it was a fine idea to leave an insubordinate apprentice on a leash and in doing so, grasped defeat from the jaws of victory. There is no overlooking this nonsense.

In all fairness, Vitiate was "only" 1400 years old at this point. Didn't spend a lot of that time gaining knowledge of all walks of life.

 

[Readher]

Can't make KOTOR 3 when KOTOR 1 and KOTOR 2 aren't canon anymore.

Despite that a KOTOR3 would be better received than most Disney based Star Wars games these days.

And you know that how? They can't even find anyone capable of doing a remake, a completely new game would probably fare even worse.

In the end, it doesn't matter, because as I've said, the previous games aren't canon anymore. TOR era is very much an official thing now (https://www.starwars.com/eras) and Disney will want to capitalize on it one way or another, while adhering to its new canon. If KOTOR remake ends up not happening, then KOTOR 3 isn't happening either - that's for sure.

The biggest problem something like KOTOR remake faces, is that I'm pretty sure there isn't a single studio out there capable of remaking KOTOR in 2020+. There are no studios capable of making an RPG with much fewer expectations due to no cinema connections. BG3 was likely the best shot the industry had, and it still falls apart the further you go and has a fuckton of cut content and is blatantly unfinished, and that's after many years in development. Meeting people's expectation for KOTOR remake in, say, year 2025? Literally impossible for any current dev. They're simply not competent enough. And KOTOR wasn't even that deep of an RPG.

 

[Roguey]

BG3 was likely the best shot the industry had, and it still falls apart the further you go and has a fuckton of cut content and is blatantly unfinished, and that's after many years in development.

Would have been polished and finished if Swen actually made a game of reasonable size instead of an 80-120 hour behemoth. Knights of the Old Republic was a "mere" 30-50 hours.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

It would be believable that Revan might have thought he had a chance at taking on the True Sith alone if they weren't headed by an essentially immortal, omniscient god-emperor, but rather just a succession of exceptionally powerful Dark Lords, with a particularly dangerous ideology as intended in K2. He might have relied on it resembling the Old Sith Empire where there would be internal rivalries to exploit and possibilities to sow division, but he'd have to be delusional to think he could outplay the Sith anti-Christ of TOR having actually met with him. Revan being only a mortal thought in terms of years at a push. The gap of experience would be too great between them if Vitiate was well written, and Revan at minimum would have been able to recognize that if he was well written.

As it stands, neither were well written, Revan was retardo'ed and the Emperor was made into an anime villain. Imo, Obsidian had the right idea, and Bioware ignoring what was interesting (the ideology, the mystery, the "otherness" of a wicked civilization in isolation) in favor of investing the idea into one all-powerful being leading a Galactic Empire clone was pure decline.

Some good reasons why TOR's background story and main villains are not interesting, there is no exploration of concepts and ideas here that even in the Star Wars setting was possible before it became a crapton of repeated tropes and cliches. Back when I finished KOTOR2 I also had the idea that Kreia did not mean some omnipotent god emperor with the 'True Sith' but rather an idea or a philosophy that had spread throughout unknown parts of the galaxy. And how do you fight an idea?
But that is all in the past now. Its dead Jim.

I kind of liked that in the Knight Errant comic series. It was set during the New Sith wars, a period in which the Sith ideology has re emerged and newly risen Sith lords had pushed the Republic back to the core after which these Sith Lords started to compete among themselves. Something I found interesting is that it was also a conflict about personal philosophies though it has to be said that some of these lords were quite insane. One was a nihilist who apparently became so because he was I think in pain whenever someone else was around. Another all about Solipsism, thinking he had made up the universe. One basically just about the right of the strongest, even forgoing most technology, twins who were all about controlling others through the Force.

The biggest problem something like KOTOR remake faces, is that I'm pretty sure there isn't a single studio out there capable of remaking KOTOR in 2020+. There are no studios capable of making an RPG with much fewer expectations due to no cinema connections. BG3 was likely the best shot the industry had, and it still falls apart the further you go and has a fuckton of cut content and is blatantly unfinished, and that's after many years in development. Meeting people's expectation for KOTOR remake in, say, year 2025? Literally impossible for any current dev. They're simply not competent enough. And KOTOR wasn't even that deep of an RPG.

There are no studios any more capable of it. If we got a new Star Wars single player RPG today, it would be a load of cinematic bullshit with very little focus and interest in developing the background story and other characters other than what is needed for the 'epic story'. I do wonder if there will be some kind of 'rebounce' in the future or if serious RPGs end up being the thing only indie developers will do in the future while when a big studio announces their next RPG project it will be another action game with stat elements.

 

[Readher]

BG3 was likely the best shot the industry had, and it still falls apart the further you go and has a fuckton of cut content and is blatantly unfinished, and that's after many years in development.

Would have been polished and finished if Swen actually made a game of reasonable size instead of an 80-120 hour behemoth. Knights of the Old Republic was a "mere" 30-50 hours.

I suppose that's true. That's still just one studio capable of doing it then, and the weren't available at the time. Won't be available for a project of that scale in the foreseeable future either, if Swen is to be believed.

There are no studios any more capable of it. If we got a new Star Wars single player RPG today, it would be a load of cinematic bullshit with very little focus and interest in developing the background story and other characters other than what is needed for the 'epic story'. I do wonder if there will be some kind of 'rebounce' in the future or if serious RPGs end up being the thing only indie developers will do in the future while when a big studio announces their next RPG project it will be another action game with stat elements.

The moment shareholders come into play, heavy optimization comes as well. Everything needs to be justified. Why bother making an RPG with C&C when it just means more time and money spent working on content that people will be missing (due to choices)? Even BG3 which didn't have shareholders breathing down their neck suffers from this. Play goodie two shoes, and you have a fuckton of content, but start doing evil stuff, and you're just missing half of the game.

Cinematic slop with RPG elements is the ultimate corporate game. State-of-the-art graphics that catch everyone's eyes (especially console casuals), light RPG elements where people can see numbers go up and get dopamine, not to mention the potential for monetization with MTX (XP boosts, ability unlock skips, etc.). Extensive RPG elements just means adding a lot of stuff that the average mongrel isn't even capable of appreciating, while having the potential to scare customers off with complexity.

Modern Western RPG will simply become japslop J"""RPG""".

 

[Roguey]

Even BG3 which didn't have shareholders breathing down their neck suffers from this. Play goodie two shoes, and you have a fuckton of content, but start doing evil stuff, and you're just missing half of the game.

This is just developer bias.

Also it's not like kotor had a compelling dark side path (or most rpgs for that matter).

 

[Readher]

Even BG3 which didn't have shareholders breathing down their neck suffers from this. Play goodie two shoes, and you have a fuckton of content, but start doing evil stuff, and you're just missing half of the game.

This is just developer bias.

Also it's not like kotor had a compelling dark side path (or most rpgs for that matter).

That's just proving my point, isn't it? The RPG stuff is largely superficial in most of the AAA games (old or new). For all the wanking KOTOR2 gets, the choices were super shit too and very binary (goodie two shoes / murderhobo). SWTOR was thousands times better in that regard, shame about the MMO part. Is it developer bias, or is it optimizing for the choices that are likely going to be the most popular, while leaving everything else as an afterthought, just so they can brag about "choices" and "playing how you want" and technically not lie?

 

[Roguey]

That's just proving my point, isn't it? The RPG stuff is largely superficial in most of the AAA games (old or new). For all the wanking KOTOR2 gets, the choices were super shit too and very binary (goodie two shoes / murderhobo). SWTOR was thousands times better in that regard, shame about the MMO part. Is it developer bias, or is it optimizing for the choices that are likely going to be the most popular, while leaving everything else as an afterthought, just so they can brag about "choices" and "playing how you want" and technically not lie?

This doesn't just apply to AAA games. Most people don't want to be evil, most people don't want to or don't know how to design interesting evil choices. Gray choices are better.

 

[Infinitron]

I do wonder if there will be some kind of 'rebounce' in the future or if serious RPGs end up being the thing only indie developers will do in the future while when a big studio announces their next RPG project it will be another action game with stat elements.

Cinematic slop with RPG elements is the ultimate corporate game. State-of-the-art graphics that catch everyone's eyes (especially console casuals), light RPG elements where people can see numbers go up and get dopamine, not to mention the potential for monetization with MTX (XP boosts, ability unlock skips, etc.). Extensive RPG elements just means adding a lot of stuff that the average mongrel isn't even capable of appreciating, while having the potential to scare customers off with complexity.

Modern Western RPG will simply become japslop J"""RPG""".

? Posts from 2010?

 

[Readher]

That's just proving my point, isn't it? The RPG stuff is largely superficial in most of the AAA games (old or new). For all the wanking KOTOR2 gets, the choices were super shit too and very binary (goodie two shoes / murderhobo). SWTOR was thousands times better in that regard, shame about the MMO part. Is it developer bias, or is it optimizing for the choices that are likely going to be the most popular, while leaving everything else as an afterthought, just so they can brag about "choices" and "playing how you want" and technically not lie?

This doesn't just apply to AAA games. Most people don't want to be evil, most people don't want to or don't know how to design interesting evil choices. Gray choices are better.

Gray choices are rarely a thing too, unless you count "do the good thing, just demand payment for it" as gray. It's always either a saint or murderhobo. This is because barely any game actually gives you a viable "evil" faction you can work with. This is why SWTOR choices are so good. When you're playing an Imperial character, you're already essentially evil, you just control to what degree. Light Side options on the Imperial side would often qualify for a Dark Side / evil label in other games. Hell, working with the Empire in the first place would be considered evil. This is the problem. The default state is always that you're good.

I do wonder if there will be some kind of 'rebounce' in the future or if serious RPGs end up being the thing only indie developers will do in the future while when a big studio announces their next RPG project it will be another action game with stat elements.

Cinematic slop with RPG elements is the ultimate corporate game. State-of-the-art graphics that catch everyone's eyes (especially console casuals), light RPG elements where people can see numbers go up and get dopamine, not to mention the potential for monetization with MTX (XP boosts, ability unlock skips, etc.). Extensive RPG elements just means adding a lot of stuff that the average mongrel isn't even capable of appreciating, while having the potential to scare customers off with complexity.

Modern Western RPG will simply become japslop J"""RPG""".

? Posts from 2010?

We've been obviously observing a shift in that direction for quite a while now, but the few remaining veteran AAA RPG studios are still maintaining at least a skeleton of the RPG mechanics from their older games. The depth and quality suffered heavily, but they're still distinct enough that your average nu-Bioware lover won't be interested in japslop RPGs or Ubislop RPG-lites, at least not in the same context.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Revan, a failed Sith Lord turned Jedi, a guy who thought it was a fine idea to leave an insubordinate apprentice on a leash and in doing so, grasped defeat from the jaws of victory

For a Sith apprentice conspiring against the master is a sign of strength and good rearing by master. Self-destructive ideologies gonna self destruct.

 

[Roguey]

Gray choices are rarely a thing too, unless you count "do the good thing, just demand payment for it" as gray.

No..? Gray has been a cliche since Fallout.

 

[Atlantico]

Revan, a failed Sith Lord turned Jedi, a guy who thought it was a fine idea to leave an insubordinate apprentice on a leash and in doing so, grasped defeat from the jaws of victory

For a Sith apprentice conspiring against the master is a sign of strength and good rearing by master. Self-destructive ideologies gonna self destruct.

About a quarter century after hearing this for the first time, this still does not make much sense. Jorge didn't think this through and I think it is as damaging to the Sith as midichlorians are to Jedi. Stupid idea that we should probably just ignore going forward.

 

[Roguey]

About a quarter century after hearing this for the first time, this still does not make much sense. Jorge didn't think this through and I think it is as damaging to the Sith as midichlorians are to Jedi. Stupid idea that we should probably just ignore going forward.

In the Empire Strikes Back, Vader wants Luke to join him so they can overthrow the Emperor together and rule instead. This is what they're like.

 

[Atlantico]

About a quarter century after hearing this for the first time, this still does not make much sense. Jorge didn't think this through and I think it is as damaging to the Sith as midichlorians are to Jedi. Stupid idea that we should probably just ignore going forward.

In the Empire Strikes Back, Vader wants Luke to join him so they can overthrow the Emperor together and rule instead. This is what they're like.

As father and son, not as master and apprentice and to bring order to the galaxy.

Nevermind that extrapolating the entire "Sith" from that very specific situation is also not credible.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Revan, a failed Sith Lord turned Jedi, a guy who thought it was a fine idea to leave an insubordinate apprentice on a leash and in doing so, grasped defeat from the jaws of victory

For a Sith apprentice conspiring against the master is a sign of strength and good rearing by master. Self-destructive ideologies gonna self destruct.

About a quarter century after hearing this for the first time, this still does not make much sense. Jorge didn't think this through and I think it is as damaging to the Sith as midichlorians are to Jedi. Stupid idea that we should probably just ignore going forward.

Putting daggers into people backs is one of the oldest humanity tradition.

From your point of view the Romans are badly written and the whole story about the the big ass empire with millions of civil wars is unrealistic.

 

[Atlantico]

Revan, a failed Sith Lord turned Jedi, a guy who thought it was a fine idea to leave an insubordinate apprentice on a leash and in doing so, grasped defeat from the jaws of victory

For a Sith apprentice conspiring against the master is a sign of strength and good rearing by master. Self-destructive ideologies gonna self destruct.

About a quarter century after hearing this for the first time, this still does not make much sense. Jorge didn't think this through and I think it is as damaging to the Sith as midichlorians are to Jedi. Stupid idea that we should probably just ignore going forward.

Putting daggers into people backs is one of the oldest humanity tradition.

A non-sequitur.

From your point of view the Romans are badly written and the whole story about the the big ass empire with millions of civil wars is unrealistic.

lmao what the fuck are you on dope?

The Romans were not written, they were. And here's what they were not: always two of them and always the apprentice trying to unseat the master. Because that's patently retarded.

 

[Roguey]

As father and son, not as master and apprentice and to bring order to the galaxy.

Nevermind that extrapolating the entire "Sith" from that very specific situation is also not credible.

Vader wanted to betray his own master. In Return of the Jedi, the Emperor was goading Luke into killing his own father and attacking him so he could be a proper anger-filled apprentice. Alliances of convenience, whoever is strong enough to win deserves victory. It's right there in the Sith Code written by Gaider.

 

[Atlantico]

As father and son, not as master and apprentice and to bring order to the galaxy.

Nevermind that extrapolating the entire "Sith" from that very specific situation is also not credible.

Vader wanted to betray his own master. In Return of the Jedi, the Emperor was goading Luke into killing his own father and attacking him so he could be a proper anger-filled apprentice. Alliances of convenience, whoever is strong enough to win deserves victory. It's right there in the Sith Code written by Gaider.

Vader wanted to reunite with his son as Luke says in ROTJ: "I sense the conflict within you".

Vader says to Luke in ESB: "you will destroy the Emperor, he has foreseen this, it is your destiny" — Vader believed in the power of the Emperor, but always in motion the future is, so eh.

Still the core turned out to be true. Vader sacrificed himself for his son, not to overthrow the Emperor.

The Sith Code by Gaider is fan-fiction to be kind, but ultimately just a convenient narrative device to put into an XBox game. What I'm talking about is Lucas' silly prequel nonsense "always two there are, master and apprentice, no more, no less".

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

The Romans were not written, they were. And here's what they were not: always two of them and always the apprentice trying to unseat the master. Because that's patently retarded.

Always two of them are, the Emperor and the Pretorian Prefect. One to embody Power, the other to desire it.

 

[Atlantico]

The Romans were not written, they were. And here's what they were not: always two of them and always the apprentice trying to unseat the master. Because that's patently retarded.

Always two of them are, the Emperor and the Pretorian Prefect. One to embody Power, the other to desire it.

lol no

Augustus to Tiberius to Caligula to Claudius to Nero to Galba and so on. None of them were Praetorian. (this is going to be a running theme btw)

Not Otho, not Vitellius, not Vespasian — though his son Titus was in fact a praetorian prefect, but he was also his son and heir. So that doesn't really hold up.

Domitian, Titus' son, was not a praetorian prefect.

Certainly not Nerva. Or Trajan or his adopted son Hadrian or his adopted son Antoninus Pius.

It is truly a mystery how co-emperors Marcus Aurelius and Lucius Verus and Commudus fit into this nonsense theory. Because they don't. Not only did they reign two at a time, but none of them — nor any mentioned before — was a Praetorian prefect or otherwise.

Those are the first 250 years of the Roman Empire and never was there this scenario you bring up as "always". So no, it's the opposite, *never* in the first quarter millennium. Never.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

For a Sith apprentice conspiring against the master is a sign of strength and good rearing by master. Self-destructive ideologies gonna self destruct.

Lenience after catching an insubordinate apprentice is a sign of weakness in the master. Malak proved his ineptitude many times over and Revan failed to do what needed to be done.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

The Romans were not written, they were. And here's what they were not: always two of them and always the apprentice trying to unseat the master. Because that's patently retarded.

Always two of them are, the Emperor and the Pretorian Prefect. One to embody Power, the other to desire it.

lol no

Augustus to Tiberius to Caligula to Claudius to Nero to Galba and so on. None of them were Praetorian. (this is going to be a running theme btw)

Not Otho, not Vitellius, not Vespasian — though his son Titus was in fact a praetorian prefect, but he was also his son and heir. So that doesn't really hold up.

Domitian, Titus' son, was not a praetorian prefect.

Certainly not Nerva. Or Trajan or his adopted son Hadrian or his adopted son Antoninus Pius.

It is truly a mystery how co-emperors Marcus Aurelius and Lucius Verus and Commudus fit into this nonsense theory. Because they don't. Not only did they reign two at a time, but none of them — nor any mentioned before — was a Praetorian prefect or otherwise.

Those are the first 250 years of the Roman Empire and never was there this scenario you bring up as "always". So no, it's the opposite, *never* in the first quarter millennium. Never.

Philip The Arab was a pretorian prefect. You were just a few years short of those 250