Vapourware Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Remake from Saber Interactive

[ERYFKRAD]

Glassdoor reviews from this year:

Pros
Great team that really cares about the projects they are working on
Cons
It's a growing company, that is still working out how to best manage it's growth

Pros
Good benefits Friendly People Opportunity for growth
Cons
The company is in a growth phase so things are being worked out

Pros
- Bonuses are relatively good - Fun projects - Remote work is available - Employees tend to stay long term, 7 years on average!
Cons
- We're growing like crazy and some of upper management are overworked. More delegation is needed

Seems the common theme is that they grew too fast and couldn't manage it.

Although I do think part of the reason is that the round is just too long at 6 seconds. One is figuratively drumming one's fingers on the desk, making a cup of coffee and reading the newspaper while waiting. Why not have something like 2 or 3 seconds? Surely that would retain the round-based gameplay element but give more of a fast-paced action feeling? Be more of a hybrid?

? KOTOR rounds are 3 seconds, not 6 like in the IE games and NWN.

6 if you got Force speed on, probably.

 

[gurugeorge]

? KOTOR rounds are 3 seconds, not 6 like in the IE games and NWN.

Ah you're right. Amend my comment then - should be cut down to 1 or 1.5 seconds, 3 seconds still feels too long.

One Mississippi, two Mississippi, three Mississippi. See? Too long.

 

[copebot]

What made KOTOR feel antiquated when it was released is the fact that combat was irrelevant in the greater scheme and in the details. Positioning didn't matter. Consumables didn't matter. Most character build decisions didn't matter so long as you didn't specifically set out to make a shitty character. Targeting didn't matter. Preparation didn't matter. Leveling up didn't matter. You couldn't really control your companions easily, and even if you did, it didn't matter because the combat was so trivial anyway. The minigames were all bad. It skated on pure novelty of being a Star Wars CRPG. Much like little girls used to enjoy Mary Kate & Ashley media, some boys liked playing Star Wars friend simulators to stave away loneliness. It was never a good game, it wasn't a very good interactive video-story, but it was something unique and fresh at the time that it was released, if only because of the creative use of the license.

From a pure IP management perspective, it's interesting how Bioware managed to avoid the continuity headaches that wound up causing Disney to founder when put in charge of managing the IP. Bioware got around it by performing an act of subcreation within the universe that didn't necessarily contradict the established stuff in the media, and also got around having to deal with the deeply controversial prequel films. Disney got around the problem by just declaring that continuity didn't matter and decided to create deconstructive films about the IP that they had just lavished billions of shareholder dollars on.

Now social media makes it easy for everyone to pretend like they have lots of friends without having to play a shitty Bioware dating sim. There are also tons of visual novels for those for whom social media doesn't work for. So, the subgenre of Bioware friend simulator became obsolete.

The team probably struggled because, especially with limited professional skills, you cannot remake something effectively that was only popular because of novelty. There are plenty of old games that do something good or unique as games. Remake those, and you might be presenting something to a new audience that is as fresh today as it was then.

 

[scytheavatar]

Thoughts?

 

[agris]

delayed infinitely is the perfect euphemism for cancelled in 2022

edit:

According to two other inside sources, Aspyr told its staff and partners that the game could be released by the end of 2022, while the development staff countered by stating that 2025 would be a more obtainable launch window.

seems like a slight miscalibration of expectations

 

[racofer]

Thoughts?

Good fucking riddance.

 

[Kerghnox]

The best thing about this is there's no chance a KotR2 remake will happen now. Imagine them rewriting the game because it was written by a rapist.

 

[Junmarko]

Thoughts?

Only good part "combat was going to be real time" - If they managed to make it like Jedi Outcast that would have been cool. Kotor combat was MMO-tier trash.

"Calo is a woman and Karath is now a black woman" lmao...of course.

 

[MuffinBun]

Thoughts?

minor antagonists are now women

 

[MuffinBun]

I'd really like them to release/leak that vertical slice. Beyond the fun of it, I wonder if the sony execs were right, or whether it just was not to their tastes, aka not cinematic enough or whatever.

 

[Roguey]

? KOTOR rounds are 3 seconds, not 6 like in the IE games and NWN.

Ah you're right. Amend my comment then - should be cut down to 1 or 1.5 seconds, 3 seconds still feels too long.

One Mississippi, two Mississippi, three Mississippi. See? Too long.

If you have to shorten the rounds to 1 second you might as well just make an action game at that point.

 

[luj1]

Thoughts?

wtf lol

 

[luj1]

The best thing about this is there's no chance a KotR2 remake will happen now. Imagine them rewriting the game because it was written by a rapist.

what rapist

that woman was so desperate for attention I thought she was going to shit herself

 

[luj1]

I'd really like them to release/leak that vertical slice.

ehh

modded kotor shits on whatever remake they come up with

 

[ERYFKRAD]

you might as well just make an action game at that point.

EXACTLY

 

[copebot]

you might as well just make an action game at that point.

EXACTLY

Even the people who were remaking the game agreed that KOTOR is a bad game. "This old game sucks so much that we're replacing all the gameplay. That leaves nothing but the cutscenes and dialogue. We're also going to make all the old characters from the old game black, gay, or black and gay, because the old cutscenes weren't inclusive enough."

 

[ERYFKRAD]

you might as well just make an action game at that point.

EXACTLY

Even the people who were remaking the game agreed that KOTOR is a bad game. "This old game sucks so much that we're replacing all the gameplay. That leaves nothing but the cutscenes and dialogue. We're also going to make all the old characters from the old game black, gay, or black and gay, because the old cutscenes weren't inclusive enough."

I don't know about all that but Kotor could have had better combat, be it turn based or action.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

Ah you're right. Amend my comment then - should be cut down to 1 or 1.5 seconds, 3 seconds still feels too long.

Felt about right for the lightsaber combat imo. The complex animations needed that extra time to play out. Only noticeable when using guns.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

It was a bad idea from the start because fans of the original expect a remake to actually play like the original but they're only a part of the target audience. Regardless of your opinion on how kotor played, a remake has certain implications that are expected.
You have two split target audiences that fundamentally want a very different product in an irreconcilable way. One wants a game like the original, the other wants a modern "action RPG"/soulslike as they expect now, just like the recent dork souls jedi game.


Then again, this problem wouldn't exist if devs would stop digging up old games to try to milk them for money. They could have just as easily made their own game set during the old republic era without any expected baggage of a remake.

 

[Absinthe]

Honestly, I don't think anyone was yearning for the combat of KotOR. KotOR combat was utterly forgettable, largely uninteractive, and pretty much seemed to play itself. Character builds seemed like pretty much anything works without particularly trying and, being d20-based, the level-ups often didn't feel impactful either, especially if you were playing a Scoundrel. Once your character became a jedi it got a bit better but even there there is very little build-up from weak powers to stronger ones. You can pretty much cherry pick all the coolest powers you want and obtain them, so you really don't need to bother with build paths. So it's pretty hard to give a fuck about KotOR's combat. The only requirement to do better than KotOR here is that the combat actually feel like combat and not like time-wasting.

The bigger source of complaints would be if their new action-based combat results in the lack of party members. The other source of major complaints will of course be the revamping and butchering of KotOR's characters and story, as well as derailing the story to satisfy the need for players to experience the "cool stuff" the remaster team threw in. The story and characters still have to feel like KotOR, and narrative pacing matters. This is probably the spot where it can get absolutely clobbered in the customer reviews and even a number of the professional ones.

Another source of complaints would be if they butcher the aesthetic. Redoing it to look better is fine, but if the visual design stops feeling like KotOR you'll lose people. Often enough, remasters seem to just remake all the parts of the original without factoring in how the overall design is supposed to fit together to create an overall mood or impression, which will fuck with the aesthetic side of things. And sometimes remasters pretty much do their own thing and overhaul it into something that doesn't feel like the original at all. There is, in fact, a fair bit of artistry and direction required in crafting a remake that still feels like the original. That said, the original KotOR's graphics weren't exactly impressive, so there's room to improvise without too much critique. It's probably more important that the design comes together and moves through the narrative appropriately than that the design perfectly replicates the original.

And last but not least, there's always the good old bugs, crashes, and performance issues. Definitely don't want it feeling like the Cyberpunk 2077 launch. The whole "We'll patch it later!" mentality really isn't going to save you from a botched launch, and unlike Cyberpunk 2077 you can't count on outrageous preorder numbers, many of which stemmed from company reputation, keeping you profitable through a terrible launch.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Honestly, I don't think anyone was yearning for the combat of KotOR. KotOR combat was utterly forgettable, largely uninteractive, and pretty much seemed to play itself. Character builds seemed like pretty much anything works without particularly trying and, being d20-based, the level-ups often didn't feel impactful either, especially if you were playing a Scoundrel. Once your character became a jedi it got a bit better but even there there is very little build-up from weak powers to stronger ones. You can pretty much cherry pick all the coolest powers you want and obtain them, so you really don't need to bother with build paths. So it's pretty hard to give a fuck about KotOR's combat. The only requirement to do better than KotOR here is that the combat actually feel like combat and not like time-wasting.

The bigger source of complaints would be if their new action-based combat results in the lack of party members. The other source of major complaints will of course be the revamping and butchering of KotOR's characters and story, as well as derailing the story to satisfy the need for players to experience the "cool stuff" the remaster team threw in. The story and characters still have to feel like KotOR, and narrative pacing matters. This is probably the spot where it can get absolutely clobbered in the customer reviews and even a number of the professional ones.

But there's still the expectation that it would play similarly, not necessarily identical.
e.g., a lot of gameplay elements in Dragon Age Origins are similar to Neverwinter Nights and Baldur's Gate. I have issues with DAO's simplification of some things, but I generally found it to have some of the most enjoyable combat in any RTwP game I've played, eschewing the unnecessary hidden rounds for true real time was a great improvement over its predecessors in my opinion.
If a kotor remake had combat like Dragon Age Origins, I think very few fans of the originals would be upset. It wouldn't be a subgenre-departing change from the originals, and have a very similar playstyle, party control, so forth.

However, if a kotor remake decided to be more like Witcher 3 or other action RPGs then there cause to complain. There would be no character of the original game in this, it wouldn't be a remake.

Another source of complaints would be if they butcher the aesthetic. Redoing it to look better is fine, but if the visual design stops feeling like KotOR you'll lose people. Often enough, remasters seem to just remake all the parts of the original without factoring in how the overall design is supposed to fit together to create an overall mood or impression, which will fuck with the aesthetic side of things. And sometimes remasters pretty much do their own thing and overhaul it into something that doesn't feel like the original at all. There is, in fact, a fair bit of artistry and direction required in crafting a remake that still feels like the original. That said, the original KotOR's graphics weren't exactly impressive, so there's room to improvise without too much critique. It's probably more important that the design comes together and moves through the narrative appropriately than that the design perfectly replicates the original.

This is the main reason I mentioned the dismissal of their art lead who previously was an artist & art lead on Star Wars Galaxies, which has a very similar visual theme to the kotor games. A likely reason to do such, if the game itself wasn't canned, is a complete change of art direction to be more like Jedi Fallen Order or some such.

 

[scytheavatar]

Honestly, I don't think anyone was yearning for the combat of KotOR. KotOR combat was utterly forgettable, largely uninteractive, and pretty much seemed to play itself. Character builds seemed like pretty much anything works without particularly trying and, being d20-based, the level-ups often didn't feel impactful either, especially if you were playing a Scoundrel. Once your character became a jedi it got a bit better but even there there is very little build-up from weak powers to stronger ones. You can pretty much cherry pick all the coolest powers you want and obtain them, so you really don't need to bother with build paths. So it's pretty hard to give a fuck about KotOR's combat. The only requirement to do better than KotOR here is that the combat actually feel like combat and not like time-wasting.

It is indeed pretty hard to give a fuck about classic KOTOR's combat. But you have to realize that just remaking KOTOR with a new coat of paint is already a lot, a lot of work. To remake it with revamped combat is so much work that you might as well make KOTOR 3 instead. You will need AAA resources to make a KOTOR with Jedi: Fallen Order combat and I am not sure what the point of it is.

That's why I laugh and shake my head when I see Naoki Yoshida talk about how FFXVI isn't open world because he would need 15 years to make such a game. There is some degree of hypocrisy here cause to make a Dragon's Dogma style game of a scale worthy of the FF name would require 15 years too. Making an action RPG combat with balanced and non repetitive combat is a lot of work and that means less time and energy that can be spent by the devs on the rest of the game.

 

[Roguey]

It is indeed pretty hard to give a fuck about classic KOTOR's combat. But you have to realize that just remaking KOTOR with a new coat of paint is already a lot, a lot of work. To remake it with revamped combat is so much work that you might as well make KOTOR 3 instead. You will need AAA resources to make a KOTOR with Jedi: Fallen Order combat and I am not sure what the point of it is.

They made kotor 3, it was TOR. It cost 200 million, but it was also an MMO with multiple story paths each with unique cutscenes. The original kotor was made by a core team of 70 and took three years, so one would estimate that it cost a little over 20 million to make. Aspyr's proposed budget for the remake was 70 million and a schedule of three years, just like the first one. Somehow this blew up to needing six years, which would have likely doubled the budget. Something went very wrong.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Something went very wrong

The only thing wrong there was the predictions made based upon competent developers who didn't need at-work cry centers and therapists.

 

[Falksi]

Honestly, I don't think anyone was yearning for the combat of KotOR. KotOR combat was utterly forgettable, largely uninteractive, and pretty much seemed to play itself. Character builds seemed like pretty much anything works without particularly trying and, being d20-based, the level-ups often didn't feel impactful either, especially if you were playing a Scoundrel. Once your character became a jedi it got a bit better but even there there is very little build-up from weak powers to stronger ones. You can pretty much cherry pick all the coolest powers you want and obtain them, so you really don't need to bother with build paths. So it's pretty hard to give a fuck about KotOR's combat. The only requirement to do better than KotOR here is that the combat actually feel like combat and not like time-wasting.

The bigger source of complaints would be if their new action-based combat results in the lack of party members. The other source of major complaints will of course be the revamping and butchering of KotOR's characters and story, as well as derailing the story to satisfy the need for players to experience the "cool stuff" the remaster team threw in. The story and characters still have to feel like KotOR, and narrative pacing matters. This is probably the spot where it can get absolutely clobbered in the customer reviews and even a number of the professional ones.

Another source of complaints would be if they butcher the aesthetic. Redoing it to look better is fine, but if the visual design stops feeling like KotOR you'll lose people. Often enough, remasters seem to just remake all the parts of the original without factoring in how the overall design is supposed to fit together to create an overall mood or impression, which will fuck with the aesthetic side of things. And sometimes remasters pretty much do their own thing and overhaul it into something that doesn't feel like the original at all. There is, in fact, a fair bit of artistry and direction required in crafting a remake that still feels like the original. That said, the original KotOR's graphics weren't exactly impressive, so there's room to improvise without too much critique. It's probably more important that the design comes together and moves through the narrative appropriately than that the design perfectly replicates the original.

And last but not least, there's always the good old bugs, crashes, and performance issues. Definitely don't want it feeling like the Cyberpunk 2077 launch. The whole "We'll patch it later!" mentality really isn't going to save you from a botched launch, and unlike Cyberpunk 2077 you can't count on outrageous preorder numbers, many of which stemmed from company reputation, keeping you profitable through a terrible launch.

Uninteractive? Dude this is getting released on a system for people who worship Chrono Trigger as the greatest RPG ever. Uninteractive is almost a requirement for success. Dumber the better.