Vapourware Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Remake from Saber Interactive

[rusty_shackleford]

I replayed kotor not too long ago and one of the more amusing parts was how fast you could die, especially at lower level. One bad roll and you die pretty much the moment you enter combat completely confused as to wtf happened.

You don't get the OP abilities until later in the game, the early parts really aren't a walk in the park.

Like I say it applies more to 2 than 1. And it also depends on how you play I think. Like if you skip leveling until after getting Jedi training.

Metagaming tends to make your experience worse all around, yeah. One of my pet peeves is how much this site loves to ruin games for themselves this way.

 

[Harthwain]

It applies more to 2 than 1, but the games are so stupidly easy outside of a handful of instances. 1-2 fights in a 40ish hour game isn't exactly prime gameplay material.

There are more fights than 1-2 though. And the games aren't supposed to be hardcore so it doesn't surprise me people tend to find them easy to complete. The main draw was the setting anyway (Star Wars, The Old Republic, being a Jedi, etc.). Ultimately I say it's pretty mediocre, but that's still better than what Neverwinter Nights 1 was for me, which is probably the main reason why I received the game a bit better than I otherwise would. KotOR 2 having a better story (for Star Wars standards) helped too.

 

[Roguey]

KOTOR with FF7R-style gameplay would be fantastic but these are incompetent westerners we're dealing with here.

That's true, they succeeded at that style in DAO. Then threw it all away.

Eh, with DA:O they made the same mistake they made with KOTOR just in a slightly different way. https://www.gamedeveloper.com/desig...-s-i-star-wars-knights-of-the-old-republic-i-

What Went Wrong
1) Using a round-based system

Demonstrating the first playable version of the game at E3 2002 uncovered one of our biggest hurdles in the combat system's development: the graphics and camera angle made the game look so much like an action title that people didn't intuitively play it in a turnbased manner. Novice players wanted to mash buttons and twirl the thumbsticks during battle, breaking the combat system and making the game look extremely awkward. The interface's discrete character control enabled players to disrupt their current attack by moving or accidentally selecting a container while attempting to engage the enemy.

We battled this problem to the end of the development cycle, and it required a lot of concerted planning and work to overcome. Carefully controlling the player's access to gameplay functions in and out of combat produced a more intuitive system, but consumer trade shows are not the place to discover such problems in the first place, and we had to recover from some of the poor press at the show.

The fundamental lesson learned, albeit in retrospect, is that the scale of player actions allowed by a combat system must match the scale of actions on which the system operates; if a combat system is based on doing discrete combat actions at any time (like throwing a single punch or firing a single magic spell, as occurs in our upcoming Xbox RPG Jade Empire), you should allow equivalent “peraction,” low-level player control. Games like Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic with higher-level strategic systems should actually restrict players to only controlling higher-level strategic actions.

One of the #1 complaints about DA:O among console gamers https://www.rpgwatch.com/news/dragon-age--preview-g4tv-11990.html

While Dragon Age looks to be an action RPG, it is not a hack & slash intensive one. Or rather, it doesn’t work as one. Like all actions, combat is done through the mouse. You point the cursor at an enemy and click the right mouse button, and your character does whatever attack you’ve chosen from the bottom buttons.

But while this works well if you’re shooting an arrow or casting a spell, it’s not as effective when you’re wielding a sword or other melee weapon. It still works the same, it’s just that if you’re close enough to hack someone, then they’re close enough to slash you, and in this game, these actions don’t come as fast and furious as in most action games; the swinging doesn’t keep up with your button mashing. As a result, sword fights typically play out as such: you smack a guy, he smacks you, you smack a guy, he smacks you, and whoever is stronger and/or has the better melee weapon wins. Granted, it’s not as polite (read: dull) as a turn-based RPG, but for someone who likes to mash buttons as much as mash potatoes, its frustrating.

And another https://web.archive.org/web/2009062...e.com/dragon-age-origins-hands-on-impressions

After hitting the attack button several times for the character I had selected, I realized that I wasn’t attacking. That’s when I realized that each of the character’s attacks had to refresh before they could be used again. These refresh rates take so long that they force you to switch between characters if you want to deal any real damage. Each character has three attacks, but as they do little damage and quickly run out, players are forced to swap out their characters until they find one whose attacks attacks have refreshed. Although I only played for a few minutes, this quickly began to annoy me. Swapping between characters and trying to find the one whose attacks are available in order to deal minimal amounts of damage is not my idea of fun.

Not only were refresh rates a pain, but when player’s characters can attack, they don’t seem to do any damage. Sure, they do inflict damage on the baddies you’re up against, but you can’t really tell it’s happening. This lack of visual confirmation you have attacked combined with the painfully slow refresh rates made combat extremely unsatisfying.

Hence the changes in DA2 ("every time you press a button, something awesome has to happen")

 

[GhostCow]

I replayed kotor not too long ago and one of the more amusing parts was how fast you could die, especially at lower level. One bad roll and you die pretty much the moment you enter combat completely confused as to wtf happened.

You don't get the OP abilities until later in the game, the early parts really aren't a walk in the park.

Like I say it applies more to 2 than 1. And it also depends on how you play I think. Like if you skip leveling until after getting Jedi training.

Metagaming tends to make your experience worse all around, yeah. One of my pet peeves is how much this site loves to ruin games for themselves this way.

If the most optimal way to play the game is to ruin it for yourself then that is a problem with the game, not the player. Players will always do this and devs know it.

 

[Roguey]

If the most optimal way to play the game is to ruin it for yourself then that is a problem with the game, not the player. Players will always do this and devs know it.

I played normally because who the hell cares about having moar jedi levels except powergaming autists, it's an easy enough game as it is.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I replayed kotor not too long ago and one of the more amusing parts was how fast you could die, especially at lower level. One bad roll and you die pretty much the moment you enter combat completely confused as to wtf happened.

You don't get the OP abilities until later in the game, the early parts really aren't a walk in the park.

Like I say it applies more to 2 than 1. And it also depends on how you play I think. Like if you skip leveling until after getting Jedi training.

Metagaming tends to make your experience worse all around, yeah. One of my pet peeves is how much this site loves to ruin games for themselves this way.

Yeah, maybe. I played the hell out of it back in the day though, as a Star Wars fan. I've always thought it was a great Star Wars experience, but a shit RPG.

EDIT: My point is that I played it a few times normally and then started playing the entire starting point at minimum level until I got Jedi levels. Besides, it's one of the only things that make it even mildly interesting for awhile, otherwise even the arena battles are easy af.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I replayed kotor not too long ago and one of the more amusing parts was how fast you could die, especially at lower level. One bad roll and you die pretty much the moment you enter combat completely confused as to wtf happened.

You don't get the OP abilities until later in the game, the early parts really aren't a walk in the park.

Like I say it applies more to 2 than 1. And it also depends on how you play I think. Like if you skip leveling until after getting Jedi training.

Metagaming tends to make your experience worse all around, yeah. One of my pet peeves is how much this site loves to ruin games for themselves this way.

If the most optimal way to play the game is to ruin it for yourself then that is a problem with the game, not the player. Players will always do this and devs know it.

Can you list some cRPGs where the so-called "optimal" way to play isn't ruining the game for yourself? Because I'm having trouble thinking of a single one.
Missing important things(items, NPCs, conditions, whatever) and building your character incorrectly are two very obvious flaws in this argument.

It would have to be an entirely linear game without a single choice.

 

[GhostCow]

Can you list some cRPGs where the so-called "optimal" way to play isn't ruining the game for yourself? Because I'm having trouble thinking of a single one.
Missing important things(items, NPCs, conditions, whatever) and building your character incorrectly are two very obvious flaws in this argument.

It would have to be an entirely linear game without a single choice.

Maybe I'm too intoxicated to understand this post right now but I honestly can't tell what you're saying here. I have no idea what you're getting at. All I'm saying is if you have to do unfun things to do the most powerful builds then that is bad game design. Most players will go for those builds even if it's not fun getting there. If those builds are too powerful and ruin the game then players will do the unfun things both ways. The player shouldn't be allowed to do unfun things in the name of optimization. The game should be designed in a way that it isn't possible.

That doesn't mean you can't have a game where it's possible to make a bad build. Retards will be retards. That's not the same as players optimizing their playtime or build at the expense of fun.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Can you list some cRPGs where the so-called "optimal" way to play isn't ruining the game for yourself? Because I'm having trouble thinking of a single one.
Missing important things(items, NPCs, conditions, whatever) and building your character incorrectly are two very obvious flaws in this argument.

It would have to be an entirely linear game without a single choice.

Maybe I'm too intoxicated to understand this post right now but I honestly can't tell what you're saying here. I have no idea what you're getting at. All I'm saying is if you have to do unfun things to do the most powerful builds then that is bad game design. Most players will go for those builds even if it's not fun getting there. If those builds are too powerful and ruin the game then players will do the unfun things both ways. The player shouldn't be allowed to do unfun things. The game should be designed in a way that it isn't possible.

That doesn't mean you can't have a game where it's possible to make a bad build. Retards will be retards. That's not the same as players optimizing their playtime or build at the expense of fun.

Having builds that start out very weak and don't get powerful until later is a staple of the genre going back to magic users in D&D

 

[GhostCow]

Can you list some cRPGs where the so-called "optimal" way to play isn't ruining the game for yourself? Because I'm having trouble thinking of a single one.
Missing important things(items, NPCs, conditions, whatever) and building your character incorrectly are two very obvious flaws in this argument.

It would have to be an entirely linear game without a single choice.

Maybe I'm too intoxicated to understand this post right now but I honestly can't tell what you're saying here. I have no idea what you're getting at. All I'm saying is if you have to do unfun things to do the most powerful builds then that is bad game design. Most players will go for those builds even if it's not fun getting there. If those builds are too powerful and ruin the game then players will do the unfun things both ways. The player shouldn't be allowed to do unfun things. The game should be designed in a way that it isn't possible.

That doesn't mean you can't have a game where it's possible to make a bad build. Retards will be retards. That's not the same as players optimizing their playtime or build at the expense of fun.

Having builds that start out very weak and don't get powerful until later is a staple of the genre going back to magic users in D&D

That doesn't mean it's good design. That's something that can and should be improved.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Can you list some cRPGs where the so-called "optimal" way to play isn't ruining the game for yourself? Because I'm having trouble thinking of a single one.
Missing important things(items, NPCs, conditions, whatever) and building your character incorrectly are two very obvious flaws in this argument.

It would have to be an entirely linear game without a single choice.

Maybe I'm too intoxicated to understand this post right now but I honestly can't tell what you're saying here. I have no idea what you're getting at. All I'm saying is if you have to do unfun things to do the most powerful builds then that is bad game design. Most players will go for those builds even if it's not fun getting there. If those builds are too powerful and ruin the game then players will do the unfun things both ways. The player shouldn't be allowed to do unfun things. The game should be designed in a way that it isn't possible.

That doesn't mean you can't have a game where it's possible to make a bad build. Retards will be retards. That's not the same as players optimizing their playtime or build at the expense of fun.

Having builds that start out very weak and don't get powerful until later is a staple of the genre going back to magic users in D&D

That doesn't mean it's good design.

I don't see why it's necessarily bad design. It's not something players will stumble over their first time playing the game, or hell, maybe even never if nobody else told them.
Most -- probably all -- RPGs have things that completely break the balance of the game when abused by powergamers. Trying to get rid of this will lead you down the path of Sawyerdom, is that somewhere you want to go?

 

[GhostCow]

I don't see why it's necessarily bad design. It's not something players will stumble over their first time playing the game, or hell, maybe even never if nobody else told them.
Most -- probably all -- RPGs have things that completely break the balance of the game when abused by powergamers. Trying to get rid of this will lead you down the path of Sawyerdom, is that somewhere you want to go?

Ok, point taken, you win. It still sucks in KotR though. Waiting to become a Jedi is probably the worst part of the game.

 

[Harthwain]

I don't see why it's necessarily bad design.

I think he means that even at the basic level your build should offer interesting possibilities.

 

[Adenocaulon]

So it will be a Jedi Fallen Order with a kotor skin.

 

[mediocrepoet]

So it will be a Jedi Fallen Order with a kotor skin.

I don't know, that would be a way better game than KOTOR. You shouldn't get your hopes up that much.

 

[KörangarTheMighty]

I played normally because who the hell cares about having moar jedi levels except powergaming autists, it's an easy enough game as it is.

I do it for the polar opposite of power-gaming. Not leveling up makes Taris one of the best experiences in the game and actually somewhat difficult depending on class. The extra powers you gain as a Jedi are negligible anyway. You're only ever gonna use 2-3 abilities on any given engage, the lions share of buffs coming from your other Jedi companions. The variety is nice though. If you get bored of lightning, you can switch to choke or push.

 

[Adenocaulon]

So it will be a Jedi Fallen Order with a kotor skin.

I don't know, that would be a way better game than KOTOR. You shouldn't get your hopes up that much.

But not a crpg, i would prefer an isometric kotor, with the option to switch to turn based combat ...... or a party based isometric arpg.

There are a lot of third person action games and if the gameplay does not feel satisfactory it can have serious problems, jankiness is a risk for this type of game developed by a small and not experienced developer as aspyr.

 

[wahrk]

I don’t really understand how Aspyr of all companies managed to land this project. Outside of Battlefront or maybe Jedi Knight this is one of the most beloved SW series out there and Disney decided to give it to a porting studio with no prior game experience? Yeah they ported the old games to mobile and added widescreen and steam cheevos to TSL but I don’t see how that makes them qualified for a full-blown remake (with an entirely different combat system to boot). Seems like a disaster waiting to happen especially with the writing “talent” they’ve hired. Or maybe that’s just wishful thinking.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I don’t really understand how Aspyr of all companies managed to land this project. Outside of Battlefront or maybe Jedi Knight this is one of the most beloved SW series out there and Disney decided to give it to a porting studio with no prior game experience? Yeah they ported the old games to mobile and added widescreen and steam cheevos to TSL but I don’t see how that makes them qualified for a full-blown remake (with an entirely different combat system to boot). Seems like a disaster waiting to happen especially with the writing “talent” they’ve hired. Or maybe that’s just wishful thinking.

yes they should have given it to a proven studio that has released big name titles because what we really need is more games featuring trannies

 

[Larianshill]

Should have given it to Larian, the only trustworthy big-name RPG studio.

 

[wahrk]

yes they should have given it to a proven studio that has released big name titles because what we really need is more games featuring trannies

Huh? I don’t particularly trust any studio to do this but that’s not the point. If I was Disney then yes, I’d probably go with a “proven” studio over an unproven studio a literal porting house.

Also have you seen the writers attached to this? I expect it to be just as woke as any other major western game dev would be.

 

[deuxhero]

https://archive.fo/PkOcu

Maggs is out which is. No idea if the finished product will be good or not, but now it's not 100% guaranteed to be shit.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

She moved to Woke of The Coast? Dandy.

 

[deuxhero]

I think the position is the one that Nic Kelman was sacked from for provoking a multi-million dollar lawsuit WotC was going to lose? Any sane company would avoid putting anyone remotely controversial as a replacement.

 

[luj1]

I replayed kotor not too long ago and one of the more amusing parts was how fast you could die, especially at lower level. One bad roll and you die

This was true for both SWKotOR 1 and NwN 1

Try walking into Peninsula district and engaging a Gang Leader