Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Well, there were the "dragonlings" in Daggerfall. Those were pretty lame. Still, turning them into bigger, more annoying, slightly more difficult cliff racers was a pretty derp move on Bethesda's part.

 

[Grinolf]

Dragons nearly always where a part of TES lore, but they where rare, intelligent, mythical, not lame dragonborn sword fodder added for epicness sake

I wasn't commenting on dragon's implementation in the vanilla Skyrim. More so, I agree that allow player to kill his first Dragon at level 3 was fucking retarded idea. But on some stetements about lore, that confuses pretty significant things from the previous games, like about dragons one, when the main god of the Empire has form of a dragon, and about dwemer one, when the story about their disappearance had a major role both in the main quest and the mage guild quest in the Morrowind.

 

[Eyeball]

Akatosh is a god. Dragons appearing all over like HP-bloated cliffracers is unprecedented and most unfitting established TES lore.

 

[Bahamut]

Dragons nearly always where a part of TES lore, but they where rare, intelligent, mythical, not lame dragonborn sword fodder added for epicness sake

I wasn't commenting on dragon's implementation in the vanilla Skyrim. More so, I agree that allow player to kill his first Dragon at level 3 was fucking retarded idea. But on some stetements about lore, that confuses pretty significant things from the previous games, like about dragons one, when the main god of the Empire has form of a dragon, and about dwemer one, when the story about their disappearance had a major role both in the main quest and the mage guild quest in the Morrowind.

Well mostly for Skyrims need they conjured some nord-dragon war nonense, detached Alduin from Akatosh, and the thing i hate the most: the whole retarded blades nonsense as ancient dragon hunters bullshit (i prefered them as emperors secret service)

Removing all those and focusing entirely on civil war would really benefit the game (instead dragon plot they could just make a separate storyline for stormbros and imperiuls)

 

[Commissar Draco]

Its like doing game about ancient Rome and force the protagonist to fight Eagles every 5 minutes, you can turn off random cliff racers 2.0 and vampire attacks using mods so it is not as jarring as in vanilla now. Making proper Political plot with Imperials VS Stormcocks with option to go Forsworn and/or Thalmor or just cross them all and become Skyrim High King would be huge over current MAJESTIC and EPIC :kwanzania:style plot no doubt.

 

[DalekFlay]

In Skyrim, Enthim pretty much tells you that the Dwemer Allied with the Snow Elves against the Nords, promptly betrayed and enslaved the Snow Elves and blinded them turning them into Falmer and were then wiped out by the ensuing rebellion. Morrowind's Dwemer were IIRC destroyed by Nerevar.

I'm with you until "Falmer rebellion killed the dwarves." I don't think they ever said that, or if they did I missed it. Pretty sure the Falmer were just left behind to take over after their slave masters vanished. I'll have to read up on UESP I guess, either way.

UESP Edit:

The Dwemer inexplicably disappeared during the Battle of Red Mountain, the biggest and final battle of the War of the First Council.[6] The Tonal Architect Lord Kagrenac of the Dwemer constructed Kagrenac's Tools to harness the powers of the Heart of Lorkhan, which the Dwemer had discovered beneath Red Mountain. When the Chimer found out, they considered this aim blasphemous and sought to stop it. Kagrenac's goal remains unclear, but it is believed he sought to heighten his race to Anumidum.[20] The disappearance of a whole race in an instant sparked many theories,[6] but is generally thought to have followed this attempt to use the tools on the Heart,[21][22] and simply coincided with the war.[23] It appears that the Dwemer were conflicted on their use of the Heart. Some opposed its use, warning that massive side effects were likely, while the majority of the Tonal Architects, including Kagrenac, and Bthuand Mzahnch (who wrote The Egg of Time which downplayed the risks of tampering with the Heart of Lorkhan) wished to proceed.[22]

It appears all members of the Dwemer race were simply removed from the world. When the previously untouched Dwemer ruins of Bamz-Amschend in Mournhold were rediscovered, numerous piles of ashes were present next to weapons and armor, on chairs, and in beds, suggesting the Dwemer's bodies were suddenly reduced to ash in some way. In 4E 201, Arniel Gane, a researcher at the College of Winterhold in Skyrim, attempted to recreate the circumstances of the Dwemer's disappearance after obtaining Keening, one of Kagrenac's Tools, but vanished suddenly in the process, strengthening the theory that Kagrenac's use of the tools was the cause of the disappearance. Some scholars still resist the notion that the Dwemer disappeared all at once.

It mentions a war with the Falmer before this, that "ended when the dwarves disappeared."

 

[abnaxus]

It's semi-canon that the Dwemer became the skin of Numidium

Dragons were never particulalry powerful in TES lore, don't forget they were wiped out by the Tsaesci in Akavir while the survivors fled to Tamriel. But the entire "dragon war" Skyrim came up with it is kind of a lore retcon at any rate.

 

[Perkel]

Firing most of writers/designers would really benefit the game.

Instead of making stupid linear main quest focus on creating living world with multiple endings like becoming high king, creating trading empire, finding the elder scroll, becoming lich, winning war for nords/empire and becoming general, joining Vigilants of Stendarr and anihilating every vampire camp/cave in skyrim. Naturally each of those ending would give you nice FNV like what happened after you ended game this way.

I seriously don't know why so many devs are obsessed with main quest design instead of creating world and lore without using main quest to halt player progress. Think something like whole world from A to Z is open for you to explore without any This door req key to open (but you have 100% lockpick skill).

Player start also would be created from background (like Live another life mod) starting in different area with different factions hostilities.

But noooooo we need fucking dragons, LICH kings, armagedons and so on. Honestly does anyone even care about end of the world scenario ?

 

[Gord]

However, TES already puts very little emphasis on main quest, with most of the world being accessible without touching it.
I like your ideas about different "win situations" depending on what your characters personal goal is.

 

[Zewp]

But noooooo we need fucking dragons, LICH kings, armagedons and so on. Honestly does anyone even care about end of the world scenario ?

Popamolers do. Take it away and they'll be complaining about how there's not an epic enough main story to be followed.

Remember, they're developing the main story for people with the attention span of a guppy. That's why it's necessary in the first place.

 

[DalekFlay]

Nothing wrong with having a main questline with lots of story. The problem is there's no variance in Elder Scrolls games, and very little quality writing after Morrowind. See New Vegas for how you do a solid, open and varying main quest line in a Bethesda style game, courtesy of Obsidian.

Of course they sell 20 million copies of these things, so I doubt they're looking to forums for help.

 

[abnaxus]

Skyrim main quest had too much retarded slapstick, like after passing a million traps finding a note "lol I took horn" or the part where you capture Odahviing.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Its like doing game about ancient Rome and force the protagonist to fight Eagles every 5 minutes, you can turn off random cliff racers 2.0 and vampire attacks using mods so it is not as jarring as in vanilla now.

I just use Live Another Life and ignore the main quest completely. There are still a few dragons that will spawn, but most don't. The Dawngard dragons are all there though. The dragons get a lot more build up before I finally take on the main quest and they are everywhere. Combine this with Deadly Dragons and it adds up to very much

Making proper Political plot with Imperials VS Stormcocks with option to go Forsworn and/or Thalmor or just cross them all and become Skyrim High King would be huge over current MAJESTIC and EPIC :kwanzania:style plot no doubt.

Yes, more politics ould have been cool - especially given how much the game talks about politics without giving the player any real choices that make a difference. Though actually what you suggest would be nearer to textbook EPIC/MAJESTIC. I think the war itself didn't suffer from any epicness at all. What it suffered from was boring and simplistic quest design - ie, battle generic npcs to take a fort, rinse, repeat. Also a lack of consequences to your choices. For example, you give over Riften to the Imperials - does that make a difference in the war? Are there more Imperials brought in to the region? Are the Nords able to make more high quality weapons and armor now that they have Markarth?

 

[Eyeball]

Ideally, you would get to ally with one of the major 3 factions (Empire/Stormcloaks/Thalmor) as well as try to take the kingship for yourself. Like in NV, you should be able to use the guild questlines to influence the ending of the game and final battle. Convince the companions to side with either the Empire or Stormcloaks in the final battle, get the Brotherhood to assassinate Ulfric or Tullius to throw their forces into disarray, get the College of Winterhold to lend magical support to the side of your choosing, rebuild the Blades and have them aid you and so on. It was nice to see the factions you'd Allied with during the game show up at the battle of Hoover Dam in FONV, this would have been 10x as cool in Skyrim.

So much potential wasted in favour of MAJESTIC derpgons everywhere.

 

[Zewp]

Nothing wrong with having a main questline with lots of story. The problem is there's no variance in Elder Scrolls games, and very little quality writing after Morrowind. See New Vegas for how you do a solid, open and varying main quest line in a Bethesda style game, courtesy of Obsidian.

Of course they sell 20 million copies of these things, so I doubt they're looking to forums for help.

I mean specifically the whole "save the world" main storyline trope. We'll never see a TES game with a main story that doesn't involve saving the world, because anything a little more low-key or less involving is simply too complicated for the main target audience.

 

[Carrion]

However, TES already puts very little emphasis on main quest, with most of the world being accessible without touching it.

There's a big difference between Daggerfall and Morrowind's main quests compared to Oblivion and Skyrim, though, because the former are clearly designed with an open world in mind whereas the latter are linear romps that barely encourage you to explore at all. For example, in Daggerfall there are time-based events which don't trigger until a certain amount of time has passed, i.e. the game basically tells you to do whatever the hell you want in the meantime. In Morrowind you're constantly told to get some experience, take your time, make sure you're prepared before tackling a big challenge and so on. As a result the guild quests coexist peacefully with the main quest, and exploring the world running errands for random people is something that actually make sense in the context. In Oblivion and Skyrim you're always in a hurry to save the world, you always have some very specific task that you're expected to fulfill as soon as possible, and there's no real in-game justification for joining a guild or doing any side quests until you've finished the main quest.

 

[Gord]

Yes, this is true unfortunately.
Although in a way the main quest has become actually less important over the course of TES. While the world still (somewhat) revolves around it, it's more of a "token" questline.
You can do it, or you can ignore it, in size and scope it's only marginally larger than most side- and guild questlines.
Quality-wise this is not been a good decision, no question.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Fallout 3 at least started as a personal quest ( where are you, dad ) before devolving into saving everyone from genocidal villain (but part of the PC's motivation is avenging dad...I miss you, dad ), and everyone loved it. Beth could make the next TES main quest focus on something other than end of the world if they wanted, fans wouldn't be outraged or confused.

 

[DalekFlay]

There's a big difference between Daggerfall and Morrowind's main quests compared to Oblivion and Skyrim, though, because the former are clearly designed with an open world in mind whereas the latter are linear romps that barely encourage you to explore at all. For example, in Daggerfall there are time-based events which don't trigger until a certain amount of time has passed, i.e. the game basically tells you to do whatever the hell you want in the meantime. In Morrowind you're constantly told to get some experience, take your time, make sure you're prepared before tackling a big challenge and so on. As a result the guild quests coexist peacefully with the main quest, and exploring the world running errands for random people is something that actually make sense in the context. In Oblivion and Skyrim you're always in a hurry to save the world, you always have some very specific task that you're expected to fulfill as soon as possible, and there's no real in-game justification for joining a guild or doing any side quests until you've finished the main quest.

Am I wrong in remembering Bethesda commenting on this and kind of admitting they messed up? Maybe that was a rival open world developer like CD Project or Larian, I'm not sure, but I remember an interview where someone said "we realize this and won't do it in the future."

 

[set]

Considering how successful Skyrim was I can't see Bethesda designing the game differently for TES VI?

 

[DalekFlay]

Considering how successful Skyrim was I can't see Bethesda designing the game differently for TES VI?

We're just talking about making the main quest something that doesn't feel as amazingly urgent, and which has multiple outcomes. I don't think that would necessarily turn off their mainstream customer base unless they do it badly (which is possible).

 

[Sceptic]

Dragons have been a part of TES for a while, they just got the spotlight in Skyrim. And they aren't much more overused than orcs and elves, anyway.

You meet exactly one living dragon in the entirety of TES pre-Oblivion. There is mention of one other. That's it. To say that they'd been part of TES to the same extent as elves is beyond silly. To find so many flying around in a setting where they are supposedly extinct or near-extinct is understandably jarring.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

To say that they'd been part of TES to the same extent as elves is beyond silly.

I was replying to the first point, about fantasy in general. I could've been more clear about that, yeah.

Dragons. Dragons are overused in general fantasy, had no precedent for being shoehorned into TES lore and were pretty fucking derp in general. No real motivation is given for Alduin wanting to end the planet besides muahahahaevul. "Dragon bad, kill dragon!" can summarise the main plot handily. Which leads me to...

As for their sudden role under the spotlight, it's explained why they were missing and why they decided to show up again. You might very well feel it's an unnecessary asspull to make the story more EPIC but it's not "dragons being shoehorned into my unique TES lore ".

 

[granit]

It's semi-canon that the Dwemer became the skin of Numidium

Dragons were never particulalry powerful in TES lore, don't forget they were wiped out by the Tsaesci in Akavir while the survivors fled to Tamriel. But the entire "dragon war" Skyrim came up with it is kind of a lore retcon at any rate.

It is canon.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:CC:Why_the_dwemer_disappeared?
http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/482103-made-up-word-round-up/?p=6918676#entry6918676

""Kagrenac was devoted to his people, and the Dwarves, despite what you may have read, were a pious lot-he would not have sacrificed so many of their golden souls to create Anumidum's metal body if it were all in the name of grand theater. Kagrenac had even built the tools needed to construct a Mantella, the Crux of Transcendence." Quote Michael Kirkbride

 

[DalekFlay]

I'm a Morrowind/Kirkbride slut as well, but his forum comments aren't instant lore, are they? I dunno.