KickStarter Serpent in the Staglands Pre-Release Thread

[NotAGolfer]

If "quest grinding" is an issue that exists, then it exists in every RPG that offers XP for quests, regardless of whether quests are the only way of getting XP. Luckily, it doesn't.

The idea of 'quest grinding' could be interpreted in different ways and I can share where we were going with that. Something we avoided in the game’s design is the type of quest system where a player talks to everyone or are hopping between key quest givers and getting some banal or monumental task from them, and the design faulting them in some way if not completed (viable or not). We’re certainly not saying this is wrong, but we wanted to explore a system where there isn’t formalized quest hopping, and the adventure plays out more like an adventure game where a player has to decipher what to do (a hands off GM). That and role-playing a profession that the world would react to with a cautious neutrality.

A common approach we took to this is giving the player ideas of events and happenings without instilling an obligation to do or see them in any specific way. Leaving it up to the player what to write down and how they interpret letters and events makes the adventure more personal. So for example, hearing “Lev is razed” by a town crier doesn’t give the player an immediate mission, but implies that Lev could have some issues and it could be interesting to go visit or safe to stay away. By putting the player in the middle of happenings but not being at the center of them, the idea of quests take a background to just conducting your adventure.

Somewhat similar to how in BG1 (the objectively superior infinity engine title) you constantly hear about various issues that you seek out throughout the game (political issues in the city, war with Amn, iron shortage), but not really doing anything about it until you get there. A much more grounded experience. We enjoy that sense of exploration, it makes it seem more like a good table top session rather than a checklist.

Certainly not everyone’s preference, but we think it will be an interesting and rewarding system.

Say, can you read thoughts?

This is exactly what I was talking about... Dunno if I managed to convey it though, no native speaker and all.
In any case, good luck, this could be the game of my dreams.
Will up preorder/pledge right now.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Damn, I hesitated to back it when I could. Preordered just now though.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Ban Infinitron

 

[Inquisition]

I am really torn whether to delve into the game now to see what skills to chose or whether to wait for the final game and do a (mostly) blind playthrough.

edit: took a look, but there's no music playing for me. I looked in the options, music level is up. Is this a bug or is music disabled as of now?

 

[Whalenought_Joe]

I am really torn whether to delve into the game now to see what skills to chose or whether to wait for the final game and do a (mostly) blind playthrough.

edit: took a look, but there's no music playing for me. I looked in the options, music level is up. Is this a bug or is music disabled as of now?

That's a bug! We had another tester mention that on our forums, it's a recent one — I think it has to do with player prefs Unity sets up and our volume set up. We're looking into it for the patch this weekend. Thanks!

 

[Whalenought_Joe]

That's what Black Isle/Obsidian quest-driven, story-driven RPGs are about. It's not "going OCD", it's playing the game. Skipping or ignoring content in PS:T isn't "roleplaying", it's called being a casual who doesn't want to do everything the game offers him.

I think depending on what the game sets up as expectations for the gameplay and narrative for the player, a lot of the game can feel like a grind or linear if they are contradicting or poorly executed. PS:T and any other heavily narrative games strongly imply that the quests available are what drive the whole experience, so obviously the entire structure of those are updating the journal or quest log with hidden or obvious paths to continue the plot. While these types of games aren't necessarily linear or mission based, crpgs that are meant to have a more open world can start to feel that way if they follow the same design.

Off the top of my head games like Darklands, BG1 (intentionally or not), FO1, or even a non-role playing game like Myst all are all designed with mechanics and story structure to let the player explore on their own, without tasking them with following quests or even making the main quest line apparent. For an open world game that maybe aren't as "story driven", immediately knowing and being able to differentiate the main quest with side quests is kind of lazy GMing, and as you say essentially tells the player that doing every one of those quests is how they will be playing the game to the fullest. A story driven crpg or even jrpg have it easy in this regard, the expectation is the quest log or linear experience, and it's very easy to make things uninteresting in an open world game if all that's available is essentially looking for [ ! ] over folks heads.

 

[Inquisition]

I am really torn whether to delve into the game now to see what skills to chose or whether to wait for the final game and do a (mostly) blind playthrough.

edit: took a look, but there's no music playing for me. I looked in the options, music level is up. Is this a bug or is music disabled as of now?

That's a bug! We had another tester mention that on our forums, it's a recent one — I think it has to do with player prefs Unity sets up and our volume set up. We're looking into it for the patch this weekend. Thanks!

I'm just happy to hear it's no problem on my side. You two are doing great work!

 

[Sensuki]

Make sure you hold to that opinion Joe, it's good to have RPGs that offer different experiences. The more freeform exploration style isn't really being catered to at the moment, and certainly not in isometric perspective (my favourite perspective).

 

[Infinitron]

Off the top of my head games like Darklands, BG1 (intentionally or not), FO1, or even a non-role playing game like Myst all are all designed with mechanics and story structure to let the player explore on their own, without tasking them with following quests or even making the main quest line apparent. For an open world game that maybe aren't as "story driven", immediately knowing and being able to differentiate the main quest with side quests is kind of lazy GMing, and as you say essentially tells the player that doing every one of those quests is how they will be playing the game to the fullest. A story driven crpg or even jrpg have it easy in this regard, the expectation is the quest log or linear experience, and it's very easy to make things uninteresting in an open world game if all that's available is essentially looking for [ ! ] over folks heads.

That's more of a presentation issue than what roshan and I were discussing earlier, which is whether or not the fundamental unit of gameplay is solving quests (regardless of how ambiguously/obliquely those quests present themselves to the player).

Darklands might have a depth of sandbox play such that the player can get a "self-sustaining" gameplay experience while ignoring quests. But Baldur's Gate 1? Eh. Borderline case. And definitely not Fallout 1, IMO.

The question you need to ask is - "If I'm playing this game but not doing quests, is there anything interesting left to do in it?"

If the answer is "no", then talking about "quest grinding" makes no sense.

 

[Athelas]

Off the top of my head games like Darklands, BG1 (intentionally or not), FO1, or even a non-role playing game like Myst all are all designed with mechanics and story structure to let the player explore on their own, without tasking them with following quests or even making the main quest line apparent.

I'm not sure how BG1 fits into that. You get a chapter narration as soon as you enter a plot-critical area and prominent parts of the game are plot-gated, most notably the titular city of Baldur's Gate. By contrast, Fallout has a clearly labeled main quest ('find the water chip!' followed by 'stop the mutants!'), but leaves it to the player how to pursue those goals.

For an open world game that maybe aren't as "story driven", immediately knowing and being able to differentiate the main quest with side quests is kind of lazy GMing,

It's the norm though. An RPG where any seemingly innocuous side quest could turn out to be THE main quest would be very cool, but it would require quite the unorthodox design philosophy.

Besides, side quests can feed into the main quest, like with reputation mechanics or side quest NPC's having a role in the main quest (depending on how you solved those side quests).

 

[Whalenought_Joe]

I suppose the premise that "RPG = quests" is part of the issue I see. If quest tracking become how the game is intended to be played, isn't that a bit dull of a narrative design hook for exploring? Even a Zelda game, at least from what I recall from the last one I played years ago, has a bazillion side quests without needing to dangle a shiny check box or even label them as quests for me to understand that I'm progressing or having fun. It's a weird standard for the rpg genre.

Most of these games would be a nightmare for players in a tabletop session, they'd be hoarding help-tickets like IT support anytime they walked across town. Not that all crpgs have to support a tabletop resemblance, but they should imply being able to role-play, not just RNG or MMO questing.

BG1 and Fallout 1 are certainly debatable, but do have an open world narrative that sits near the line of quest hunting and self-exploration depending on how they are played. The main quests are also presented with the idea of actually role playing the adventure: leaving it up to the player to figure out where, how and when to accomplish them. "Find a water chip" and giving the player the boot without more info is brilliant, and soon instills the expectation that the game mechanics and narrative will support the player role-playing however they want to proceed. That's good crpg design.

 

[Sensuki]

I think part of the issue is many RPGs use a system to track quests, rather than just rewarding you for completing parts of them without documentation. I think both are valid approaches. Some prefer one or the other.

 

[Whalenought_Joe]

Definitely, both ways can be done well with supporting mechanics.

 

[treborSux]

I just noticed some pages back you said completion time will be around 20 hours? Is there anything good that people with no life can do to pad the time?

 

[Whalenought_Joe]

I just noticed some pages back you said completion time will be around 20 hours? Is there anything good that people with no life can do to pad the time?

Oh my yes. We have both short-distance events hidden around, spice carrying across borders, bounties, puzzle runes and aptitude/linguistic writing secrets scattered throughout all the districts, all of which can net some exotic loot and EXP for a party. You'll be doing a lot of these anyway looking for the pieces of the puzzle that makes up the story going on, so results will certainly vary depending on where folks decide to go. Sherman marching you're way through would end up limiting some narrative encounters, though it's a good EXP source for towns that displease you if you can kill Arbiters.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

If memory serves, your trailer said no item grinding, so how have you made loot exotic?

 

[dukeofwhales]

I just noticed some pages back you said completion time will be around 20 hours? Is there anything good that people with no life can do to pad the time?

I plan to stretch it out by being generally bad at games which will add considerably to my completion time.

 

[Nephologist]

Popped my posting cherry just to say that this game looks absolutely amazing. You can have all my monies if it means you continue to bring us this level of incline.

Also, what does Whalenought_Joe have to do around here to get a developer tag?

 

[A horse of course]

Also, what does Whalenought_Joe have to do around here to get a developer tag?

Post something incendiary in the Gamergate thread

 

[AwesomeButton]

I am pleasantly surprised to see this game getting publicity in PC Gamer: http://www.pcgamer.com/serpent-in-the-staglands-not-innuendo-its-an-old-fashioned-party-based-rpg/

Even nicer is to see only one seriously retarded comment under the article.

 

[Modron]

I saw several severely retarded comments but most stemmed from one person, guessing :ehue:based on the name, who just could not grasp why people would make a game with an isometric perspective. There were also a couple more lambasting the graphics (one complaining about building "a monster rig" just to waste it on 2D graphics and another saying they would go full Biowarian graphically if they just had the budget.

But as you say the tards were not really reflective of the general attitude/praise of the rest of the posters.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I can forgive children not being used to 2D - they have been victims of shameless marketing campaigns of shit games throughout their childhood years while for us it has been in our late teens. Their infant psyche lacked any resistive powers. Their free time, which should rightfully be devoted to IE games, Fallout and Arcanum has been eaten up by Assassin Creeds, Bioshocks, Mass Effects, and they got their sexEd mostly from Skyrim mods... But that doesn't mean they can't try a 2D game and find its merits, they just don't know any better, or at least that was the impression I got from that particular comment.

The monster rig moron was a different class though. I consider him to be beyond help.

 

[Whalenought_Joe]

Thanks Nephologist!

If memory serves, your trailer said no item grinding, so how have you made loot exotic?

Equipment supplements characters and builds, but are far from the top of the list of things that will win you a fight (though any armor certainly helps). Essentially the idea being you don't have to be looking for the best equipment to be able to progress. You could probably clear the game with a party wielding iron frying pans.

It was interesting seeing the game mentioned on those sites — there was one in RPS too! Great to know more than the kickstarter folks know about the game now, a flood of new folks allowed us to finally get nice coffee and tea since dukeofwhales bestowed us with some.

We'd sooner not make a game than make it anything but isometric.

 

[Mustawd]

We'd sooner not make a game than make it anything but isometric.

 

[Ninjerk]

God damn are you trying to seduce me Whalenought_Joe because if you are it's working